18-05-2005 20:11									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns If the government fails to provide an economy where skills are rewarded, then they deserve to miss out on the skills they have given to the population, particularly since they have a distinct advantage over other countries.

Why are you making this assumption?

	18-05-2005 20:14									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns An integral part of the definition of "demand" is the ability to back up your want with purchasing power. In other words, demand means affording things. Further, no country has "no money". They can afford a certain amount of doctors per number of population through taxation. Obviously this number will be much lower than a country with a strong economy - such that there will be fewer doctors per person than in Spain. That a country with a weak economy has a lower standard of living should come as a shock to no-one though. And yes, Spain can afford to pay more at the margain to gain an additional doctor, however there comes a point when the cost of an additional doctor outweighs the additional benefit that doctor brings. Morocco, with its weaker economy, can afford less doctors. With less doctors, the marginal benefit of an additional doctor is much greater than that of Spain. While they can't afford as many doctors as Spain, there is a point where the doctor's pay at market rates equals the benefit Morocco receives from the doctors it does hire.

You started talking about demand, and then you go to benefit. Demand requires ability to pay, but benefit does not.

	18-05-2005 20:39									#93
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Nicaragua was democratic and communist.

Wrong. The Sandinistas were not "communist". They were left-wingers and socialists but not communist since the basic factor behind an communist economic system, the abolition of private property, never occured.

	18-05-2005 20:54									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Wrong. The Sandinistas were not "communist". They were left-wingers and socialists but not communist since the basic factor behind an communist economic system, the abolition of private property, never occured.

That's because they were taking it slow, instead of doing everything at once. If you knew anything about communism, you'd know that Lenin considered the total nationalization of Russian economy a grave error, but one which was forced upon them by necessity because of the civil war. After the crisis was over, he urged a return towards private property to rebuild the economy. In his earlier writings, and also in Marx's, the socialization of the economy is to take place at a gradual rate.

The Sandanisatas were revolutionary socialists. Communism = revolutionary socialism. Thus the Sandanisatas were communists. The Sandanistas were probably the closest thing to real Marxism and real Leninism since Lenin.

	18-05-2005 20:58									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns That a country with a weak economy has a lower standard of living should come as a shock to no-one though.

And a country should do absolutely nothing when it loses the ones who can fight epidemics, deadly pregancies, massive illiteracy. It's all nice and dandy if these people go on their merry way, because the country better get used to have "lower standards of living"

	18-05-2005 21:48									#96
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's because they were taking it slow, instead of doing everything at once. If you knew anything about communism, you'd know that Lenin considered the total nationalization of Russian economy a grave error, but one which was forced upon them by necessity because of the civil war. After the crisis was over, he urged a return towards private property to rebuild the economy. In his earlier writings, and also in Marx's, the socialization of the economy is to take place at a gradual rate.

They took it slow because they began ruling as a coalition between the marxists (Daniel Ortega and pals) and the non-sandinistas (Violeta Chamorro being one of them) and later because of the Contra War, not necessarily because it was part of their master plan.

quote: The Sandanisatas were revolutionary socialists. Communism = revolutionary socialism. Thus the Sandanisatas were communists. The Sandanistas were probably the closest thing to real Marxism and real Leninism since Lenin.

Communism in the economic sense is first and foremost the abolition of private property. Everything else stems from that one fact. All economic systems which do not conform to this are not communist, they are socialist to various degrees. Castro's Cuba is communist. North Korea is communist (and non-revolutionary, so under your argument they aren't commies then I guess). Sandinista Nicaragua was not communist, period.

	18-05-2005 21:54									#97
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I'll listen to the theorists of communism before I listen to an anti-communist as to what communism is and how we plan on instituting it, Master Zen. The abolition of private property is not the first thing on the agenda after the overthrow of capitalism.

Cuba is not communist. North Korea is not communist. At best, they are socialist. They are ruled by Communist Parties, but that doesn't make them Communist anymor than Meixco becomes an instutioanlized revolution when from by the PRI and a national action (whatever that would be) when ruled by PAN. Form is not essence.

	18-05-2005 22:11									#98
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I'll listed to REALITY before I listen to any theories my friend. Because other than that you'll be able to shield your arguments quite easily by saying that even the most hideous and brutal regimes are not actually "communist"

	18-05-2005 22:21									#99
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Whatever.

	18-05-2005 23:43									#100
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And as usually, the commies refuse to argue anything other than the ideals of communism vs the realities of capitalism since that's the only argument they can defend for any decent amount of time.

I'd really like to see you people willingly debate the realities of communism and capitalism so as to avoid any double standards. Or how about the reality of communism vs the ideal of capitalism? Now that would be one-sided!

	19-05-2005 00:11									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer DrZ, how can a democratic country not be capitalist? Capitalism IS freedom...

You forgot the

	19-05-2005 00:15									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen And as usually, the commies refuse to argue anything other than the ideals of communism vs the realities of capitalism since that's the only argument they can defend for any decent amount of time. I'd really like to see you people willingly debate the realities of communism and capitalism so as to avoid any double standards. Or how about the reality of communism vs the ideal of capitalism? Now that would be one-sided!

Well, we havenīt really seen true communism in action. Only half-assed attempts at best. So you canīt really compare real capitalism with real communism. All you have is the ideals of communism to compare with...

	19-05-2005 00:21									#103
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So, we haven't really seen true 100% laissez-faire captialism either. Which is why it is foolish to argue ideals and say that a system is better just because its idea is supposedly superior. Reality trounces many ideas and if no true communist state has ever existed maybe, just maybe, it's because such an idea was totally unsuited to reality.

	19-05-2005 00:34									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen So, we haven't really seen true 100% laissez-faire captialism either.

So the US isn't capitalist?

	19-05-2005 00:38									#105
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quote: And as usually, the commies refuse to argue anything other than the ideals of communism vs the realities of capitalism since that's the only argument they can defend for any decent amount of time.

It's not as if the other side are paragons. They constantly pretend that the third world doesn't exist while lauding the riches of its exploiters.

	19-05-2005 00:42									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen So, we haven't really seen true 100% laissez-faire captialism either. Which is why it is foolish to argue ideals and say that a system is better just because its idea is supposedly superior. Reality trounces many ideas and if no true communist state has ever existed maybe, just maybe, it's because such an idea was totally unsuited to reality.

I donīt think that communism is unsuited for reality, I just think that itīs been handled by a bunch of bozos so far, which is way it ends up ****ed sooner or later...

	19-05-2005 00:43									#107
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I disagree. I think that socialist ideas have influenced so much of the world today, it's mindboggling.

	19-05-2005 00:47									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So the US isn't capitalist?

100% laissez-faire capitalist? Nope. The existence of welfare is proof enough.

	19-05-2005 00:48									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: And as usually, the commies refuse to argue anything other than the ideals of communism vs the realities of capitalism since that's the only argument they can defend for any decent amount of time. It's not as if the other side are paragons. They constantly pretend that the third world doesn't exist while lauding the riches of its exploiters.

One of the many failings of the reality of capitalism, I agree wholeheartedly. Now, would you care to argue the failings of the reality of communism too?

quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg I donīt think that communism is unsuited for reality, I just think that itīs been handled by a bunch of bozos so far, which is way it ends up ****ed sooner or later...

100% of all communist regimes have ended up being led by such bozos. You honestly don't see a pattern there?

	19-05-2005 00:50									#110
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quote: One of the many failings of the reality of capitalism, I agree wholeheartedly. Now, would you care to argue the failings of the reality of communism too?

Well, for one thing communism requires a totally different mindset...

	19-05-2005 00:52									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen 100% of all communist regimes have ended up being led by such bozos. You honestly don't see a pattern there?

I see a pattern of bozos. Nothing wrong with the ideas

	19-05-2005 00:53									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Az I disagree. I think that socialist ideas have influenced so much of the world today, it's mindboggling.

The best socialist ideas have been implemented under capitalist systems, just look at the scandinavians. The entire premise of a welfare state is highly socialist and yet co-exists quite merrily in a capitalist system where private property and democracy exist also. And I'll be the first to argue that a certain degree of socialism is necessary for prosperity particularly in third world countries. I also would agree that a heavily socialized economy is far more optimal for an underdeveloped country to start getting on its feet than a neoliberal which only serves to surrender the country to foreign interests.

So yes, there has been a very positive influence of socialist ideas in the world, perhaps on the aggregate the world is better of with it than without it. Still, it's little consolation for the poor sods who had to endure living in a communist regime.

	19-05-2005 00:55									#113
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quote: One of the many failings of the reality of capitalism, I agree wholeheartedly. Now, would you care to argue the failings of the reality of communism too?

You're implicitly assuming a static view of history, denial of which is at the core of Marxism.

Here's why capitalism is ****ed.

(1) Markets have an advantage now because planned economies cannot deal with the sheer amount of information required to make accurate plans.

Information technology is killing that. Contemporary capitalists have a surfeit of readily accessible information on consumer preferences available and it will only become more intense and effective. But that's exactly the information you need to run a planned economy.

(2) The incentive structure of capitalism will cease to function once the labour cost of artificial intelligences becomes cheaper than human labour. When that happens, capitalism is finished and we'll all be put on an allowance.

	19-05-2005 00:58									#114
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I was one of the "poor sods" who endured living in a communist regime, sweetie. I am telling you now, I am better off now, but most people living there certainly are not.

	19-05-2005 01:09									#115
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Just accept your new machine overlords, Az.

	19-05-2005 01:13									#116
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Nah. It's all a meaningless distinction, anyhow, in the long run, we're all going polymorphic - football superstar lookalike today, a giant space freighter tomorrow - It will become completely meaningless, in a couple of hundreds of years.

	19-05-2005 01:16									#117
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10 bucks says you end up as a lavatory plunger.

	19-05-2005 01:19									#118
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Now would I do that? I am not into that at all.

Seriously, what I meant is that every entity would have so much knowledge and power that one would be able to choose whatever lifestyle they want. EVERY lifestyle would be possible. It would be quite awesome, the merging of communism and capitalism.

	19-05-2005 01:28									#119
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Heh... I own. Everyone on the network who is sharing is streaming from my itunes library.

Having seen what's on theirs I ain't surprised.

	19-05-2005 01:28									#120
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