19-05-2005 01:32									#121
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Hey, ten bucks says that you aren't listening to someone else's Dean Martin connection right now.

	19-05-2005 01:32									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg Trancendence

I am not a big fan, actually. I am an ardent humanist, but I fully acknowledge that this is the way things are going. I also know that if I live till that glorious age, I will find enough people who'd agree with me, so I'd be able to form with others a large enough community of entities who would prefer to be human in most aspects - except for retaining our superpowers ( and the fact that they've started out as AIs or whatever, is completely irrelevant ).

	19-05-2005 01:34									#123
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I'm transcending...

"when the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's amore!!"

	19-05-2005 01:38									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen The best socialist ideas have been implemented under capitalist systems, just look at the scandinavians.

Yeah, there was a large increase in unemployment and a large decrease in tax revenue.

	19-05-2005 01:47									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Az I am not a big fan, actually. I am an ardent humanist, but I fully acknowledge that this is the way things are going. I also know that if I live till that glorious age, I will find enough people who'd agree with me, so I'd be able to form with others a large enough community of entities who would prefer to be human in most aspects - except for retaining our superpowers ( and the fact that they've started out as AIs or whatever, is completely irrelevant ).

What´s not to like? Trancendence is the ultimate freedom...

	19-05-2005 03:21									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen And as usually, the commies refuse to argue anything other than the ideals of communism vs the realities of capitalism since that's the only argument they can defend for any decent amount of time.

Actually, it has more to do with, I'm tired of this argument, I already made my points, and you aren't going to budge, so what's the point?

	19-05-2005 03:24									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg What´s not to like? Trancendence is the ultimate freedom...

Go Borg!

	19-05-2005 03:39									#128
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i have many needs, but very little ability. my only ability is the skill to make pencils. one of my needs is a new guitar amp, an ipod, and a new audi a4. can your system provide me that?

	19-05-2005 03:49									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia i have many needs, but very little ability. my only ability is the skill to make pencils. one of my needs is a new guitar amp, an ipod, and a new audi a4. can your system provide me that?

Those are wants, not needs. If you are basically a "useless" person, you will still be provided an adequate standard of living and something productive to do so you can feel useful. Just cuz we care about people doesn't mean that we're suckers.

	19-05-2005 05:26									#130
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so who defines a need? what is a need? does that mean that no one will get ipods because its a want? no one gets a car because its a want? no one gets a guitar amp because its a want?

	19-05-2005 06:32									#131
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Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?

	19-05-2005 06:45									#132
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?

No, I think that he has the same syndrome as Skanky. He's an Economics student

	19-05-2005 07:07									#133
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Those are wants, not needs. If you are basically a "useless" person, you will still be provided an adequate standard of living and something productive to do so you can feel useful. Just cuz we care about people doesn't mean that we're suckers.

And this is my beef with communism.

Why should the state decide who is a useless person and who isn't? Why should it be the state who provides me with an "adequate" (and just how adequate it is is quite debatable) standard of living? Why should the state decide what I should do, and why they decide it is productive? How do I know if it is productive and if it will benefit me? Last bat not least, who is the state to decide what is a want and what is a need?

How many people in this world are benefitting from the production of iPods? Let's see, first of all the people who work at Apple and have very well paying jobs. Second of all there's the east-asian workers who, well, they aren't being paid so well but its surely much better than what they used to do since otherwise they would still be doing it. Last but not least there's the utility derived from all the people who bought an iPod and who's benefit exceeds that of the cost which they incurred. Thus, saying that "wants" need not be satified is quite simply the most idiotic piece of economic reasoning imaginable.

Face it. You don't care about people. You care about the state. BIG difference.

	19-05-2005 07:11									#134
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quote: Thus, saying that "needs" need not be satified is quite simply the most idiotic piece of economic reasoning imaginable.

How in the nine hells does that follow from the former?

	19-05-2005 07:12									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Why should the state decide who is a useless person and who isn't?

LoA defined himself as a useless person, so stop getting all high and mighty.

BTW, capitalism has it's own way of deciding who's useless. In the U.S., they are homeless. In the 3rd world, they starve to death. So get off your high horse.

	19-05-2005 07:20									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Face it. You don't care about people. You care about the state. BIG difference.

That's ridiculous. Why would anyone care about the state, except to meet other goals?

	19-05-2005 07:47									#137
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara LoA defined himself as a useless person, so stop getting all high and mighty. BTW, capitalism has it's own way of deciding who's useless. In the U.S., they are homeless. In the 3rd world, they starve to death. So get off your high horse.

And freedom is precisely allowing people to decide for themselves what they are or want to be. And in an ideal capitalist state people would get what they deserve. If you are homeless, it's because you deserve to be so. If you starve to death, same reason. Of course, that's in an ideal state, in reality, institutional and government flaws ensure that not all the homeless or starving people are there because they deserve to be (in fact, that'd be the minority). Nevertheless the government doesn't single you out personally in a capitalist system.

	19-05-2005 07:49									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's ridiculous. Why would anyone care about the state, except to meet other goals?

Ever hear of people benefitting from state, the politburo, the party elite, the intellectual elite and all those who formed the true party structure in most communist countries? People care about the state when they benefit from forming part of the political elite, you would be quite naive to think that people care about the state only because they care about other social goals. That's just so against human nature that it's frightening.

	19-05-2005 07:50									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris How in the nine hells does that follow from the former?

Typo. I meant to write "wants". Post edited.

	19-05-2005 07:50									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen And in an ideal capitalist state people would get what they deserve.

The ideal capitalist state is the state that best maximizes the interests of the capitalist class. In such a state, the vast majority of people don't get what they deserve. Most live lives of desperate misery, and a few very wealthy people live far beyond what would be considered obscene. Nazi Germany was an ideal capitalist state for the capitalists.

	19-05-2005 07:51									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen And freedom is precisely allowing people to decide for themselves what they are or want to be. And in an ideal capitalist state people would get what they deserve. If you are homeless, it's because you deserve to be so. If you starve to death, same reason. Of course, that's in an ideal state, in reality, institutional and government flaws ensure that not all the homeless or starving people are there because they deserve to be (in fact, that'd be the minority). Nevertheless the government doesn't single you out personally in a capitalist system.

Holy crap. What kind of a liberal are you? Freedom is being able to actually choose something, not just being allowed to. You are allowed to own a house. That doesn't mean that you are free to do so.

	19-05-2005 07:52									#142
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Maybe you should stop telling me what I care about, before I start putting words in your mouth in return, nazi fan boy.

	19-05-2005 07:53									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Ever hear of people benefitting from state, the politburo, the party elite, the intellectual elite and all those who formed the true party structure in most communist countries? People care about the state when they benefit from forming part of the political elite, you would be quite naive to think that people care about the state only because they care about other social goals. That's just so against human nature that it's frightening.

You don't seem to have that capacity, but you can't say whether Che does or does not, because you aren't him.

	19-05-2005 07:53									#144
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The ideal capitalist state is the state that best maximizes the interests of the capitalist class. In such a state, the vast majority of people don't get what they deserve. Most live lives of desperate misery, and a few very wealthy people live far beyond what would be considered obscene. Nazi Germany was an ideal capitalist state for the capitalists.

That's the typical ignorant communist vision of capitalism, it is hardly the system which is envisioned by economic theorists. I suggest you read some of them first before making false assertions like "the state that best maximizes the interests of the capitalist class". Even the most basic piece of economic theory does not mention the existence of class, merely the existance of producers and consumers. It's called the circular flow of the economy. I seriously suggest you read this before claiming to know what the ideal capitalist state is.

	19-05-2005 07:55									#145
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Maybe you should stop telling me what I care about, before I start putting words in your mouth in return, nazi fan boy.

Now I'm a nazi!

If that's the extent of your debating skills, calling people nazis just because they're arguing against communism, I guess this is all but over.

	19-05-2005 07:57									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen That's the typical ignorant communist vision of capitalism, it is hardly the system which is envisioned by economic theorists.

I thought you wanted to discuss reality, not theories, nazi.

Anyway, your disavowal of the existence of class as far as capitalist theoreticians is concerned is false. You might with to acquaint yourself with economists from before Ayn Rand.

	19-05-2005 07:58									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Now I'm a nazi!

If all I care about is the state, then you're a Nazi. When you start discussing in a less rude fashion, I'll return the effort.

	19-05-2005 07:59									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Holy crap. What kind of a liberal are you? Freedom is being able to actually choose something, not just being allowed to. You are allowed to own a house. That doesn't mean that you are free to do so.

Freedom in reality is a combination of both. If you accept the traditional definition, in Cuba, for example, you are not free to travel outside the country because the government prohibits it. If you accept the Amartya Sen definition of freedom, then in the US many people aren't free to travel because they do not have the economic resources to do so.

In a capitalist system you are free to chose to be a bum, to be a slacker, to be a useless loser. The consequences of that is that you likely won't get far in life and thus will lose many of the Sen freedom's that you could possibly later desire.

Yet even if Castro left power right now, you honestly think the majority of Cubans would be "free" to travel? Neither of those exist in most communist countries so I honestly don't understand why you're arguing this point.

	19-05-2005 07:59									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Even the most basic piece of economic theory does not mention the existence of class, merely the existance of producers and consumers.

And that's exactly why it's nothing but crap.

	19-05-2005 08:04									#150
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I thought you wanted to discuss reality, not theories, nazi. Anyway, your disavowal of the existence of class as far as capitalist theoreticians is concerned is false. You might with to acquaint yourself with economists from before Ayn Rand.

You want to discuss reality?

Here's reality: capitalism is the system which has given a significant amount of the world's population a standard of living which was unheard of before and which has since been unrivaled by any other economic system ever implemented.

Argue me that.

You want more reality? The reality is that communism has been an abject failure leading to the collapse of most of the countries which applied it and which led to the economic ruin of those countries until capitalism stepped in. The only successful communist country in the economic sense, has been China, and it has been so because of the capitalist elements of its economy.

That's reality Che. Deal with it.