19-05-2005 08:05									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Yet even if Castro left power right now, you honestly think the majority of Cubans would be "free" to travel? Neither of those exist in most communist countries so I honestly don't understand why you're arguing this point.

Eventually people will be able to travel.

	19-05-2005 08:07									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious And that's exactly why it's nothing but crap.

Your knowledge of it is apparently not enough for you to make an intelligent decision over whether it is crap or not. Class is not a pre-condition, it's a by-product of market and institutional failure. It's an effect, not a cause.

	19-05-2005 08:07									#153
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so who defines a need? what is a need? does that mean that no one will get ipods because its a want? no one gets a car because its a want? no one gets a guitar amp because its a want?

	19-05-2005 08:11									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Your knowledge of it is apparently not enough for you to make an intelligent decision over whether it is crap or not. Class is not a pre-condition, it's a by-product of market and institutional failure. It's an effect, not a cause.

Of course its an effect. Why shouldn't you care about the effects?

	19-05-2005 08:19									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen You want more reality? The reality is that communism has been an abject failure leading to the collapse of most of the countries which applied it and which led to the economic ruin of those countries until capitalism stepped in. The only successful communist country in the economic sense, has been China, and it has been so because of the capitalist elements of its economy.

The struggle to implement communism world wide has just begun. Sure there have been set backs. We're always under attack. We have to do things the way we don't want to sometimes to keep up the fight. But we won't give up. And you give too much credit to capitalism. It looks good right now, but the future isn't so bright. One day capitalism will be a thing of the past, and the whole world will be glad.

	19-05-2005 08:30									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Of course its an effect. Why shouldn't you care about the effects?

Who on earth said that capitalism doesn't care about the effects?

I stated that in the most basic conception of an economic system, the notion of class doesn't exist since it's divided into producers and consumers in what is called the circular flow of the economy (and government as a 3rd party but which is outside the flow). What this means is that consumers pay for goods which means a transfer of money to the producers. But the producers are also consumers so their consumption also feeds the circle. The government, on the outside, affects the flow by interveneing when necessary.

When does the issue of class arise? Well, an imperfect market structure might enable firms to obtain larger than possible benefits. These are called monopoly benefits. Firms in every industry, even the most competitive ones, obtain monopoly benefits to a greater or lesser degree. Firms who have these benefits can choose to invest them unequally leading to workers not getting paid the value of their production. Likewise differences in the behavior of industries leads to an economy which is fragmented into sectors, some of which are priviledged and some which aren't (in a 3rd world example you can separate the modern export-heavy industries being rather prosperious and the traditional non-export industries being poor).

These are just a few of the examples of why clases exist yet in neither case does class predate the existance of the basis of any economic system: a theoretically classless consumer-producer relationship.

If you don't know this then you really don't know much about economics and have no grounds on asserting that economic theory is "crap"

	19-05-2005 08:36									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The struggle to implement communism world wide has just begun. Sure there have been set backs. We're always under attack. We have to do things the way we don't want to sometimes to keep up the fight. But we won't give up. And you give too much credit to capitalism. It looks good right now, but the future isn't so bright. One day capitalism will be a thing of the past, and the whole world will be glad.

Stalin's propaganda machine would have definitely hired you.

I do not buy into Fukuyama's theory that liberal democracy is the ultimate system. History changes. People change. Systems change. I agree with you that capitalism might very well be eventually replaced by a superior system. But it won't be communism. Communism has failed, and you're just deluding yourself in not believing that. As it stands, capitalism is the system more in line with human nature and which has so far worked best. It is not without it's flaws, it is far from perfect. But it's the best we have.

Instead of clinging to the carcass of a failed economic ideology, you should be spending your time on thinking of ways in which capitalism can be improved, because it does have a huge room for improvement. Many of the communist values you espouse can very well be adapted to a capitalist system. Blind belief in an extreme is stupid IMO, capitalism and communism are black and white yet there's a huge area of gray which is far more suited to the world's reality. Just like I'm bashing you commies I'd be bashing anyone with a blind faith in neoliberalism and the market above everything else.

	19-05-2005 08:36									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Who on earth said that capitalism doesn't care about the effects?

You did. You said that you don't care about class. Class is an effect of capitalism.

quote: I stated that in the most basic conception of an economic system, the notion of class doesn't exist since it's divided into producers and consumers in what is called the circular flow of the economy (and government as a 3rd party but which is outside the flow). What this means is that consumers pay for goods which means a transfer of money to the producers. But the producers are also consumers so their consumption also feeds the circle. The government, on the outside, affects the flow by interveneing when necessary.

What does this have to do with anything.

quote: When does the issue of class arise? Well, an imperfect market structure might enable firms to obtain larger than possible benefits. These are called monopoly benefits. Firms in every industry, even the most competitive ones, obtain monopoly benefits to a greater or lesser degree. Firms who have these benefits can choose to invest them unequally leading to workers not getting paid the value of their production. Likewise differences in the behavior of industries leads to an economy which is fragmented into sectors, some of which are priviledged and some which aren't (in a 3rd world example you can separate the modern export-heavy industries being rather prosperious and the traditional non-export industries being poor). These are just a few of the examples of why clases exist yet in neither case does class predate the existance of the basis of any economic system: a theoretically classless consumer-producer relationship. If you don't know this then you really don't know much about economics and have no grounds on asserting that economic theory is "crap"

I have no idea what you are talking about all of this for. Do you prefer having a class system? Why?

	19-05-2005 08:42									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen As it stands, capitalism is the system more in line with human nature and which has so far worked best. It is not without it's flaws, it is far from perfect. But it's the best we have.

This isn't about what I want. It's about how I see the future. You have a lot of confidence in capitalism. I don't. I don't see any way to make it better. Welfare state is not the answer, anymore than globalization or supply side economics is. I see no hope for capitalism. It's unstable and immoral. It will collapse one day and the people of the world will be glad to be done with it.

	19-05-2005 08:42									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You did. You said that you don't care about class. Class is an effect of capitalism.

I did? Gee, quote me on where I said that.

	19-05-2005 08:45									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious This isn't about what I want. It's about how I see the future. You have a lot of confidence in capitalism. I don't. I don't see any way to make it better. Welfare state is not the answer, anymore than globalization or supply side economics is. I see no hope for capitalism. It's unstable and immoral. It will collapse one day and the people of the world will be glad to be done with it.

Other than a few loonies like you and Che, most people prefer it over any other system in existance today.

As for it being "immoral", systems are not immoral. It is the people who drive them that are. It is the government who choose to benefit themselves over those they have to serve which are immoral. It is those which make both communist and capitalist systems fail. Don't blame the system, blame the people behind it and I'm sorry to say that those behind communism have been quite immoral themselves.

	19-05-2005 08:53									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Other than a few loonies like you and Che, most people prefer it over any other system in existance today. As for it being "immoral", systems are not immoral. It is the people who drive them that are. It is the government who choose to benefit themselves over those they have to serve which are immoral. It is those which make both communist and capitalist systems fail. Don't blame the system, blame the people behind it and I'm sorry to say that those behind communism have been quite immoral themselves.

Bullshit. I could have a system for robbing little old ladies. Both me and the system are immoral.

	19-05-2005 09:03									#163
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Fine.

Please note that you have not provided a competent argument over

1) that communism is a superior economic system

2) that capitalism is in decline

Instead you have reduced yourself into saying that you "think" that capitalism is in decline and "think" that capitalism will collapse (your evidence of that please?) because you believe it to be immoral (and you never explain exactly why).

Good job. :applause:

	19-05-2005 09:16									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen 1) that communism is a superior economic system 2) that capitalism is in decline

Communism is the economic system of the future. Capitalism is an exhaustive economic system. It has to burn itself out. That's all I really have time for tonight. Tomorrow is my last final, so I'm going to study a bit for it now.

	19-05-2005 09:23									#165
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It better not be an economics final...

	19-05-2005 10:37									#166
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no one has told me if ipods, cars, and guitar amps would disappear from society if it became communist because they are wants and not needs.

	19-05-2005 11:17									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Communism is the economic system of the future. Capitalism is an exhaustive economic system. It has to burn itself out. That's all I really have time for tonight. Tomorrow is my last final, so I'm going to study a bit for it now.

He complains that you've made baseless assertions, and you respond with more baseless assertions?

	19-05-2005 11:29									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker He complains that you've made baseless assertions, and you respond with more baseless assertions?

Well he is a Communist

	19-05-2005 16:30									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia no one has told me if ipods, cars, and guitar amps would disappear from society if it became communist because they are wants and not needs.

Maybe because we're not sure yet? Personally, my opinion is that personal music players are great. The manufacturing facilities are there, why not?

	19-05-2005 16:53									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen It better not be an economics final...

No I passed all of those already. Maybe you didn't pass your History of Economic Thought final though. If you have your old text you can read some Marxist theory so that I don't have to repeat it.

	19-05-2005 16:55									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia no one has told me if ipods, cars, and guitar amps would disappear from society if it became communist because they are wants and not needs.

Of course. All the faclities are there already. The best thing to do is imitate the way things are done already, and make slow changes.

	19-05-2005 18:36									#172
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Not in those words, but it's the implication from your asserting that if Morocco can't afford to pay the doctors what they would get in Spain, tough luck for Morocco.

Not exactly. It would only be in very extreme situations where Morocco would not be able to afford any doctors. For the majority of cases, they would just be able to afford less doctors than Spain.

Regarding the production of food, however, I actually do agree with you that a pure market system is not appropriate. While with many products, if you can't afford a particular good then you turn to inferior goods as a substitute (like if you have no doctors, you turn to whoever in the village knows the most about medicine), food as a whole does not have a substitute. If you have a good season, much food is produced and the abundance of competition for this resourse pushes prices down. Everyone can afford food (assuming the country has some sort of safety net). If you have a bad season, market forces ration food out according to wealth, meaning people who have less money can't get as much or any food. Obviously, this is a bad situation.

Fortunately, most major industrialised countries feel the same as I do, in that they provide subsidies to farmers so that supply of food is always above the equilibrium level. As a side-benefit, the direct cost people pay for food is lower than otherwise. Of course, the subsidies are also payed for by the population, but thems the breaks. While this is less efficient than pure market forces, the period of adjustment where supply is lower than demand is too costly in human terms to ignore. Starvation and death versus higher government expenditure, not such a hard decision.

	19-05-2005 18:41									#173
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To answer the original question though, there is no reason why a contracted period of service can not be part of the education package, such that the state pays for your education and expenses and you pay the state back by working for them for a set period of time. I can't see this working for primary and secondary education though, as people go through this education before being old enough to make valid legal contracts.

	19-05-2005 19:13									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Of course. All the faclities are there already. The best thing to do is imitate the way things are done already, and make slow changes.

So you are saying that there would be no iPods because they are wants and not needs despite the fact that production of iPods tremendously benefits society and doesn't really harm it?

	19-05-2005 20:28									#175
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MZ:

For having seen similar threads in the past, I believe I can see where this one is going: Kidicious will progressively explain the economic system he envisions. I'd like to point out in advance that every Commie on this board has a different opinion on the specifics (well, Odin and I appear to be in agreement on most things, but that's about it and we're socialists rather than commies anyway).

So, I'd like to tell in advance that you can't generalize anything said by a particular poster to "you commies". I think it'll be tempting at some point, but it'll be unaccurate.

	19-05-2005 20:34									#176
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It's not just commies that are that way, either. Everyone has somewhat different ideas on society and policies.

	19-05-2005 20:46									#177
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Yup.

Ask our capitalists (everybody from St Leo to David Floyd) what their ideal society would look like, and you'll have very different pictures.

	19-05-2005 21:27									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor For having seen similar threads in the past, I believe I can see where this one is going: Kidicious will progressively explain the economic system he envisions.

Sort of.

	19-05-2005 22:14									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen So you are saying that there would be no iPods because they are wants and not needs despite the fact that production of iPods tremendously benefits society and doesn't really harm it?

No. You guys keep saying that. Che already made it clear, and I just did, that that's just ridiculous. Needs will be met first, but that doesn't mean that wants wont be met.

	19-05-2005 23:59									#180
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Considering how many people are employed by building iPods, you don't consider that a "need" for those people?