25-05-2005 11:24									#31
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Am I the only one who really doensn't care about which civs are in the game?
I care about the game rules, the way it plays, the possibilities, the interface, etc.
Which civs are exactly in the game doesn't matter to me.

	25-05-2005 11:45									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 In Tomboctou (Timbuktu) the buildings are practically made of dust! The whole country would dissolve with one good rainstorm!

And yet they're still standing after 700 years...

quote: As if they'd actually get a rainstorm there in the middle of the Sahara!

Mali != middle of the Sahara, or even Sahara at all. The Niger river valley is quite fertile, and was even more fertile when Mali ruled. It was in fact one of the most fertile regions on the planet before desertification set in a couple of centuries ago.

quote: Originally posted by vovan Granted, I don't know how much this guy knows about history, but sounds plausible.

I could make a few additions to that, but he knows his history well enough to get the point across. IMO Mali was more important than certain other civs, such as the Aztec, Americans or Koreans (and certainly the Zulu).

Mind you, Ethiopia wouldn't have been a bad pick either, but Mali is most certainly worthy as well.

	25-05-2005 14:00									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The American debate is rather stupid and pointless given that there's no chance of Firaxis ever leaving them out of a civ game.

Exactly - It is a marketing choice.

And besides, I like the American civ being in my games.

It makes a valuable ally or an entertaining enemy!

	25-05-2005 15:45									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 You know, come to think of it, how many civs can be in any one game at any given time? I was irritated that you could only have 3 cis on a small map in Civ 3. I'd like a good 18 civ game without all the glitches...

You could change that through the editor

	25-05-2005 16:36									#35
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Am I the only one who really doensn't care about which civs are in the game? I care about the game rules, the way it plays, the possibilities, the interface, etc. Which civs are exactly in the game doesn't matter to me.

ditto
anyway, i expect that modders will create literally every civ possible later for anyone to download, so who cares about what is in the game
still, i would appreciate not having ctp nightmare mentioned earlier and being destroyed by omnipotent micronesian empire. that is plainly ridiculous.

	25-05-2005 19:55									#36
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I'm well aware of the glorious Malinese antiquity.

I just felt like ranting and raving because Mali still seems out of place in a Civ game with no Greeks. Heavens.

	25-05-2005 20:03									#37
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You never know... Greeks might still make it in at the expense of some other civ.

	25-05-2005 20:23									#38
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Oh, I know.

It's just fun to rant every once in a while.

	25-05-2005 20:32									#39
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I really don't care which civs are in as long as the Celts are definately in.

	25-05-2005 20:50									#40
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CIV1 had 14 factions:

Americans
Aztecs
Babylonians
Chinese
Egyptians
English
French
Germans
Greeks
Indians
Mongols
Romans
Russians
Zulus

I would be sad to see any of these civs not in the game.
Anything extra (and there I imagine there is!) is a bonus!

	25-05-2005 22:12									#41
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Civilization 2 had 21 factions:

Americans
Aztecs
Babylonians
Carthaginians
Celts
Chinese
Egyptians
English
French
Germans
Greeks
Indians
Japanese
Mongols
Persians
Romans
Russians
Spanish
Sioux
Vikings
Zulus

It would be sad to see a Civ game without most of these (Perhaps Zulus and Sioux excepted).

In my opinion, Civ2 was the zenith of Civdom.

	25-05-2005 22:18									#42
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Civ3's 3 incarnations had 31 (32) civs total. I would like to see most of these at some point. Maybe in an expansion or 7?

Civ3 (16)

Americans
Aztecs
Babylonians
Chinese
Egyptians
English
French
Germans
Greeks
Indians
*Iroquois
Japanese
Persians
Romans
Russians
Zulus

C3: PTW (8)

*Arabs
Carthiginians
Celts
*Koreans
Mongols
Spanish
*Ottomans
Vikings

C3: C (7/[8])

*(Austrians)
*Byzantines
*Dutch
*Hittites
*Incans
*Mayans
*Portuguese
*Sumerians

* indicates a Civ that had not previously been featured in any Civ game.

Last edited by Alexander01 on 25-05-2005 at 22:24

	25-05-2005 22:36									#43
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling I would be sad to see any of these civs not in the game. Anything extra (and there I imagine there is!) is a bonus!

I'm NOT sad to see the Zulu go, and I wouldn't mind if they finally did history justice and replaced the Aztec with the Maya. But other than that, I agree

	25-05-2005 22:40									#44
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I concur with Locutus. If there is to be only one Mesoamerican civ, it should be the Mayans. Let the Aztecs come in an expansion if they must.

As for the Zulus, let them be in a British Empire scenario or something.

	25-05-2005 22:43									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 I just felt like ranting and raving because Mali still seems out of place in a Civ game with no Greeks. Heavens.

What!!?!? The Greeks are not in? Surely that's won't be the case. heheh.

*Mace muses to himself , "No Greeks?...And it calls itself a Civ game...."

Oh well. Just so Civ4 plays well. I don't care what civs are in. The Greeks will be modded in, anyway.

	25-05-2005 23:27									#46
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I suppose that the Greeks are in, and that either the Arabs or the Spanish were dropped (and saved for expansion packs).

	26-05-2005 00:22									#47
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I agree that if the playability is poor quality that it won't matter what civs are in the game, however...

Here's the tentative Civ4 list again, with * indicating which civs I think may be dropped or held for an expansion.

Americans
*Arabs
Aztecs
Babylonians
Chinese
Egyptians
English
French
Germans
*Incans
Indians
Japanese
Malinese
*Mongols
Persians
Romans
Russians
*Spanish

The list is currently top-heavy on medieval/modern European civs too.

5 medieval/modern Europe (England, France, Germany, Russia, Spain)
1 ancient Europe (Rome)
3 ancient Near East (Egypt, Babylon, Persia)
2 Mesoamerica (Aztecs, Incans)
4 Far East Asia (China, Japan, India, Mongolia)
1 Modern America (USA)
1 medieval/modern Near East (Arabia)
1 sub-Saharan Africa (Mali)

	26-05-2005 00:36									#48
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Isn't Egypt in Africa? How about Carthage? Do we need a sub-saharan African nation?

	26-05-2005 00:42									#49
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Carthage and Egypt were both quasi-Semitic nations.
Carthage was a Phoenician colony. Neither one was "black" per say. They may have been darker than the average Nordic person, like when you compare Arabs with Danes, but certainly not black.

Mali, on the other hand, was right in the heart of "Black Africa" (is there a more appropriate term for this? It doesn't exactly sound PC, as if anyone REALLY cared about being PC.)

There are 3 very basic, perhaps overally generic "races" in the human race:

Caucasoid - Europe
Negroid - Africa
Mongoloid - Asia

Firaxis doesn't want to ignore a third of mankind, so they always have at least one black civ, because a game that purports to be an overall basic survey of world civs would be complete without them.

	26-05-2005 01:35									#50
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There are actually 5, 2 others in Africa.

	26-05-2005 01:44									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker There are actually 5, 2 others in Africa.

Which post are you referring to?

	26-05-2005 01:59									#52
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The one directly above mine.

	26-05-2005 02:36									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The one directly above mine.

So what other 2 are you referring to? The Australoids and Capoids? The Australoids are Pacific Islanders and Australian aborigines and the Capoids are southwest African bushmen.

I'm sure Firaxis would put them in Civ if they had ever formed "civilizations" per say before most of them were conquered by imperialists.

	26-05-2005 03:03									#54
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@Adagio

My comment about me not being an American was meant a bit different than what you apparently thought. As others already noted, this is a marketing choice. The USA is the biggest market, so leaving that civ out of the game is hardly an option. Regardless of "hardcore" players' opinions, really.

	26-05-2005 03:13									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 So what other 2 are you referring to? The Australoids and Capoids? The Australoids are Pacific Islanders and Australian aborigines and the Capoids are southwest African bushmen.

I said both were African. There are 3 races in Africa - IIRC negroid, pygmy, and one other.

quote: I'm sure Firaxis would put them in Civ if they had ever formed "civilizations" per say before most of them were conquered by imperialists.

What made you think I suggested that they be included as civs, or have civs representing them?

	26-05-2005 03:30									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I said both were African. There are 3 races in Africa - IIRC negroid, pygmy, and one other.

So the pygmy were the race that I didn't think of. Thanks.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker What made you think I suggested that they be included as civs, or have civs representing them?

I didn't. I was just making a facetious remark about Firaxis that had nothing to do with you. I'm not trying to antagonize you.

	26-05-2005 04:44									#57
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The list I'm hoping to see in Civ4:

1. America
2. Arabia
3. Assyria
4. Aztec
5. China
6. Egypt
7. England
8. France
9. Germany
10. Greece
11. Inca
12. India
13. Maya
14. Mali
15. Persia
16. Rome
17. Russia
18. Spain


EXPANSION:

1. Kampuchea
2. Mongolia
3. Ethiopia
4. Carthage
5. Iroquois
6. Scandinavia
7. Korea
8. Netherlands

-Ben

	26-05-2005 04:48									#58
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Well, as much as I would like to see an Assyrian Civ, I think it's pretty much a lost cause on this series. Sumerians and Hittites made it into Civ when Assyria didn't. Sad.

And I also doubt that Kampuchea (Cambodia) will make it in. Oh, well.

Other than that, your suggestions are reasonable, though I would prefer some additional civs to the ones you suggested.

	26-05-2005 04:54									#59
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I think Assyria has been bypassed because Babylon stands in for Assyria. Heck, Ashurbanipal is one of the Babs' "Great Leaders" in Civ3.

I would rather see Assyria replace Babylon, personally. Shake things up a bit. My boyfriend is Assyrian, so maybe I'm a bit biased.

	26-05-2005 05:07									#60
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Assyria ruled a greater territory for a longer period of time, but the Judeo-Christian heritage has made Babylon more famous for its two empires (Hammurabi's and Nebuchadnezzar's), Hanging Gardens, Tower of Babel, etc.

I wouldn't mind having them both, but if it came down to a choice, I think Firaxis will always choose Babylon.