02-06-2005 22:03									#151
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Yes, he did fight for Castille, for the Moors, and for his own Kingdom of Valencia.

However, he might be a nice choice for a leader based solely on coolness factor.

Yes, Rodrigo Diaz de Bivar is far cooler that any of those lispy Aragonese Philips.

	03-06-2005 01:44									#152
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BTW, does anybody have a list of the civs in CTPII? I never played it; I'm just curious for comparison's sake.

	03-06-2005 02:03									#153
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It has too many to mention (43 I think), and it wasn't very good. For one thing, they included all nationalities of the development team, which lead to Nicaraguan, Canadian and Irish civs and things like that

The mods are better of course, but there's many of those with all their own list...

	03-06-2005 02:05									#154
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quote: they included all nationalities of the development team

it was the "this is the end of these games, we're moving to different companies right after that, let's at least have some fun and leave our name in game history" mentality

ctp2 development team

	03-06-2005 02:08									#155
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Plus, it's a meaningless comparison, since there was no distinction between the civs in CtP2.

	03-06-2005 02:32									#156
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: they included all nationalities of the development team it was the "this is the end of these games, we're moving to different companies right after that, let's at least have some fun and leave our name in game history" mentality ctp2 development team

They did a couple of things in that spirit but the list of civs wasn't one of them. The list of civs for CtP1 was even crappier than the one for CtP2. At least they bothered to remove the Jamaicans and one or two other uber-crappy civs for the sequel.

CtP2 is still the best Civ game to date of course, but on merit of gameplay, not historical accuracy (talking about the unmodded game still)...

	03-06-2005 05:58									#157
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Well, that sounds unfortunate.

	03-06-2005 15:03									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus ... and Irish civs and things like that

Well there's nothing particularly wrong in having a distinctive Irish civilization. These were the people who founded those monastic centres all over Europe, from Spain to the Ukraine, Sweden to Italy, and helped preserve the knowledge of ancient Greece and Rome when Mediterranean civilization was reeling from attacks by Arabs and steppe nomads.

They also reintroduced Christianity to northern England and Scotland after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, even though Canterbury and Augustine are often erroneously given the credit.


The Viking invasion of Ireland also resulted in a hybrid Hiberno-Scandinavian culture, and Ireland was the home of an old Celtic culture, the only one to remain free of Roman domination.

	03-06-2005 17:45									#159
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No irish monks traveled to Sweden (or Norway or Denmark) AFAIK. They did however colonize Iceland, Greenland and the Faroe Islands.

There were several unsuccesful attempts to christen the heathens of the nordic countries, but they were all done by monks from mainland Europe, mainly Germany. It wasn´t until the 12th century that all of Sweden, Denmark and Norway was fully christened.

	03-06-2005 20:13									#160
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The Irish would be interesting in a Dark Ages scenario. But I fear thyey'd be too redudnant with generic "Celts."

	04-06-2005 04:00									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg No irish monks traveled to Sweden (or Norway or Denmark) AFAIK. They did however colonize Iceland, Greenland and the Faroe Islands. There were several unsuccesful attempts to christen the heathens of the nordic countries, but they were all done by monks from mainland Europe, mainly Germany. It wasn´t until the 12th century that all of Sweden, Denmark and Norway was fully christened.

...and there were pockets of paganism there even after the 12th century...I once read this: in the 1400's, on the island of Rugen (or was it Gotland?) in the Baltic there was a "sacred tree" which was guarded by soldiers. Some Christian knights (may have been Teutonic Knights?) moved to chop down the tree and convert the people there, and they had to fight the soldiers. The soldiers fought to the death defending the tree...

Wonder if we'll have that kind of resistance with religious conversion in Civ4?

	04-06-2005 09:05									#162
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Well, I'm still about to collapse from the thought of no Greeks!

	04-06-2005 09:14									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 Well, I'm still about to collapse from the thought of no Greeks!

Yea. I enjoy beating them up.

	04-06-2005 09:15									#164
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Looks from the latest interview (see topped Update thread) that it will be either the Greeks or the Babylonians

	04-06-2005 09:19									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Looks from the latest interview (see topped Update thread) that it will be either the Greeks or the Babylonians

That sounds like an utter travesty! Don't get me wrong, I'd still buy the game, it just wouldn't feel right, is all.

	04-06-2005 09:40									#166
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Actually, I would trade off the Babylonians for the Greeks. Greece has made a much much bigger impact on history than Babylon.

	04-06-2005 09:45									#167
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quote: Originally posted by KyuuA4 Actually, I would trade off the Babylonians for the Greeks. Greece has made a much much bigger impact on history than Babylon.

As would I, though I wouldn't want to lose Babylon either...

(I noticed one thing, one the Spearmen concept art, there's a Bull emblem. What's on the "Babylonian" flag? Though why Greece would use a bull is beyond me.)

	04-06-2005 14:32									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 Though why Greece would use a bull is beyond me.)

The legend of Pasiphae's punishment ?

Her lust for sexual congress with a bull gives us the Minotaur.

There's also Zeus's abduction of Europa whilst transformed into a bull, the oxen of the sun, Herakles and the Cretan bull, Herakles and the cattle of Geryon, Milo of Croton who is supposed to have entered the Olympic arena carrying a bull on his shoulders....


The bull is a potent symbol of aggression, masculinity and power, and would have been an expensive sacrificial animal with which to honour a deity.

	04-06-2005 20:51									#169
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom The legend of Pasiphae's punishment ? Her lust for sexual congress with a bull gives us the Minotaur. There's also Zeus's abduction of Europa whilst transformed into a bull, the oxen of the sun, Herakles and the Cretan bull, Herakles and the cattle of Geryon, Milo of Croton who is supposed to have entered the Olympic arena carrying a bull on his shoulders.... The bull is a potent symbol of aggression, masculinity and power, and would have been an expensive sacrificial animal with which to honour a deity.

I knew all about the Minoans and the bulls of Crete, but I wouldn't have thoguht that the bull would go to Greece as a symbol. No lightning bolts of Zeus?

	05-06-2005 02:33									#170
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To those whom argue against the Americans being included:

For one, how would it be plausible to not include the most powerful (lets try not to be semantical on the term powerful either) military of a nation in recent modern times?

Secondly, how would it be plausible to not include the most far reaching influential nation in recent modern times?

Thirdly, how would it be plausible to not include (at least one of) the most technologically advanced nation in not only recent modern times but the past 200 years?

Fourthly, how would it be plausible to not include the largest economy of a nation in recent modern times?

Fifthly, how would it be plausible to not include the nation who has had the most effect in wars and politics in recent modern times?

Sixthly, how would it be plausible to not include the the nation that has nearly ~300 million people out of ~6.5 people in the world in recent modern times?

Seventhly, how would it be plausible to not include arguably the nation whose land is the richest in resources?

Eighthly, how would it be plausible to not include the nation whose land area is the third largest in the world in recent modern times?

Ninthly, how would it be plausible to not include the nation whose "culture" (albeit a corporate culture) dominates over the sphere of the world in recent modern times?

Tenthly, how would it be plausible to not include the single nation, American, who comprises the aforementioned 9 elements?


I can understand one's dissent (RIGHTFULLY SO!) towards America, but it almost makes one look silly claiming America doesn't deserve to be in the game. America is easily one of the greatest (whatever great may be in the game Cvilization's terms) civilizations ever. Yes, there are still other Civs who deserve to be in the game over America, namely the Greeks, but it is ridiculous to assume there are 18 or even 10 Civs who "deserve" to be in over America.

	05-06-2005 02:47									#171
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TechWis, this is no useful argument, and I knew it before it even started. People have different views of what constitutes a civ worth of this game. For me, it is the history and long-term impact on the world. Not their current power. Sorry, but being only 200 years old, and basically a thing that developed from other civs' colonies, America is not in for a 4000 BC start, no matter what you say.

What would be much more interesting to see is the possibility of such young, powerful civs to evolve as the "offspring" of ancient ones. If the game can not simulate that (Civ 2 could, did it not?), then it is flawed, and adding the young civ is, in my opinion, a weak attempt to somehow "patch" that flaw.

	05-06-2005 06:47									#172
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THE civilization missing is the Québécois one !

Yay ! I'll be the first to MOD this and add it with René Lévesques and Louis-Joseph Papineau as their leaders !

Je me souviens

	05-06-2005 06:53									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 TechWis, this is no useful argument, and I knew it before it even started. People have different views of what constitutes a civ worth of this game. For me, it is the history and long-term impact on the world. Not their current power. Sorry, but being only 200 years old, and basically a thing that developed from other civs' colonies, America is not in for a 4000 BC start, no matter what you say.

It's a BS argument anyway, since what you want is not going to happen no matter how well or often you demonstrate your point. Give it up.

	05-06-2005 10:21									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker It's a BS argument anyway, since what you want is not going to happen no matter how well or often you demonstrate your point. Give it up.

Nice reality check.

	05-06-2005 10:25									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Niptium THE civilization missing is the Québécois one ! Yay ! I'll be the first to MOD this and add it with René Lévesques and Louis-Joseph Papineau as their leaders ! Je me souviens

Wouldn't Quebec have to qualify as a civilization first?

	05-06-2005 10:28									#177
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Wouldn't they have to be civilized?

	05-06-2005 10:29									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Nice reality check.

I get annoyed at people masturbating all over otherwise useful threads

	05-06-2005 10:35									#179
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Babylon v. Greece seems like a pretty straightforward no-brainer for me, especially since I am assuming one of this game's units will be the hoplite or the phalanx. I can understand if they were looking to get more non-Western civs into the game, but did I not hear somewhere that there is an Arab civilization? That should cover the "Mesopotamia" aspect, at least*

*and please spare me the argument "Babylonians weren't remotely Arab, etc." I know, but we're talking gameplay here.

	05-06-2005 12:13									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 TechWis, this is no useful argument, and I knew it before it even started. People have different views of what constitutes a civ worth of this game. For me, it is the history and long-term impact on the world. Not their current power. Sorry, but being only 200 years old, and basically a thing that developed from other civs' colonies, America is not in for a 4000 BC start, no matter what you say.

Why see the problem is putting what constitutes a worthy civ into singular terms; there are several different factors which can make a civ worthy that vary from civ to civ. You based your opinion of why America should not be included in Civ off of a subjective feeling of what makes a civ worthy to be in Civ, when in all seriouness there are easily found benchmarks: geography, impact in history, size, cultural, technological, militariastic, et al (all of which I believe I listed in my previous post supporting America's cause in Civ). In regard to long-term impact, the length is irrelevant; the overall impact comprised together is what matters most. It's a shallow attempt to use "age" as a disregard towards the importance of America. Very few Civs should be included if the matter of importance is having existed 6000 years ago, but you say, ah, at least they were around 1000-2000 years ago... Well, those Civs are measely colonies from the great Roman Empire we shouldn't include them either... The argument is moot considering civs are spawns from one another. You say but look these civs have established themselves in the realm of history, America has not! Being the volatile point of history for nearly the past 100 years does not place itself into the importance of history? What does make a civ important then, remaining idle for centuries at a time? Your argument is moot from the grounds of a civ needing to have long-term impact, overall impact is the deciding point over length of time. Also, it would be beneficial for when discussing/arguing not to end your discussion/argument with a near pouting-like statement.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 What would be much more interesting to see is the possibility of such young, powerful civs to evolve as the "offspring" of ancient ones. If the game can not simulate that (Civ 2 could, did it not?), then it is flawed, and adding the young civ is, in my opinion, a weak attempt to somehow "patch" that flaw.

Yes, while we are at it lets not even include the Romans, Greeks, French, Russians, English, or any of those late blooming offspring from the get go... The game is clearly flawed, as you eloquently put it, if they are included from the beginning.