25-05-2005 21:30									#31
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Bullshit! Our civilization is superior. Whether you measure by how we treat women or homosexuals or freedom of thought or freedom of religion or standard of living or not having to wear bushy moustaches, Western civilization is clearly superior.

What about historically speaking? Can we say then that Islamic civilization was superior to Western civilization in the 9th and 10th centuries, when European intellectual development paled in comparison to Islamic caliphates?

	25-05-2005 21:30									#32
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I would.

	25-05-2005 21:31									#33
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So she can be prosecuted for speaking the truth? Nice set up you have in Europe. It's nie to know that while Europe is generally better than the U.S., we still have some areas where we are better than you.

the more i get to know you the more i get a feeling you're not really something, and a closet racist as well btw.
sometimes the opposites of what one claims are truw about himself

you have no clue do you?


"speaking the truth?" is that what you really understood che?

jesus

	25-05-2005 21:32									#34
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how is she speaking the truth?
that islam is a religion of hatred?
so that's the truth eh?

prove it.
then again don't you already showed your limitations

	25-05-2005 21:34									#35
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No that's not the point. THAT exact part I wouldn't say is the truth part. But it's connected with the FACT that terrorist have killed, islamic terrorist have killed bunch of people and the world of islam is not exactly being tough on the terrorism at all. Some are even supporting it. Now, she says tough words, but if you get prosecuted for saying it like that, then there's something seriously wrong in our open society.

For example, you can say that about Christians and anyone else. No problem. People will get their panties on twist, but NO prosecution you can bet your money on that.

	25-05-2005 21:39									#36
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As much as I hate saying this, Pekka is right.

	25-05-2005 21:44									#37
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prove that "islam is a religion of hate"

	25-05-2005 21:45									#38
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Go defame Islam in an Islamic country. You'll have your proof.

What happens to Islamic apostates in Islamic countries?

	25-05-2005 21:47									#39
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cluelessness abounds.
you dont even have ONE muslim country as neighboor do you?
all you get is what your media feeds you. silamic terorists this that want to polute our bodily fluids. now add to that a bit of superiority syndrome and you have your cake all baked up to eat it.
or even see muslim immigrants and put your frustration on their religion

things are much more complicated than those oh so nice little simplifications made for lazy minds.

islam or whatever else can be used as a vehicle for whatever means. communism, capitalism etc the list is endless.
now if you can prove that "islam is a religion of hate" we wont bust your ass in jail. if you cant (and you cant) you are definitely can be persecuted for slander. it's as simple.

	25-05-2005 21:49									#40
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You see, that's bullshit. She can slander Islam all she wants. It might be incorrect and even condemnable, but as said, it's none of the government's goddman business that she said it.

Is the law there to wipe our bottoms as well?

	25-05-2005 21:50									#41
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if I call you a bastard and hate person, and I don't have to prove it, do I go to jail? If I call all your friends too? I might get my ass kicked, but I don't go to jail for it.

If I call the whole country bastard stupid hate country, I don't go to jail, if I do the same for Europe, I don't go to jail.

I say Christianity has brought most destruction of all religions in numbers of people killed (fact) and it's basically a hateful religion against other religions claiming to be superior to the rest of them, DO I GET MY ASS IN JAIL? NO I DO NOT?

You see, we have a double standard in here.

It's not 'protecting religion'. **** what is that, I never heard of protecting religion?!?!? Where is this special law, I have never ever heard of it and if I now hear about it, I have to say I'm disappointed.

	25-05-2005 21:50									#42
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Go ahead, think what you want.

	25-05-2005 21:51									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You see, that's bullshit. She can slander Islam all she wants. It might be incorrect and even condemnable, but as said, it's none of the government's goddman business that she said it.

the government are the people. the people are offended. the government should act. you have a lockesque approach to gov. that has much to be envious about.

freedom of speech is not synonymous with slander.

	25-05-2005 21:52									#44
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I and DanS and Pekka can all agree, then obviously we're right, because we never agree.

	25-05-2005 21:53									#45
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And for the fact that some extremists now think she can be killed and it's all cool doesn't make it an excuse for citizens to deny their right to talk ****!

The problem is the EXTREMISTS. Never should we forget that. If they start bombing stuff because someone said allah is pedophile, is it the fault of the one who said it, or the one who bombed? I'm sorry, maybe our European way of life wasn't good enough for you Mr. Terrorist, I think we might have offended you and your way of life. Don't worry we will condemn strongly the bastard who talked crap about you.

My suggestion is we keep talking trash if we want to, and if someone gets offended and actually walks the walk, then we just shoot them and continue business as usual.

	25-05-2005 21:53									#46
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it's not about protecting "religion". is about saying hurtful lies for one and of course provoke the religious feeling of people. she doesnt have the right to do that in a society that respects itself. but go ahead and believe what you want too. in the end of the day it's pretty clear who lives in a more peaceful and care for all society. that's exactly becasue it is a society based on laws that dont only care about protecting property , that dont see gov. as "arbitrator" but as embodiment of the societal civil codes that people expect from each other to keep.

	25-05-2005 21:53									#47
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 the people are offended.

Slander isn't about offense, it's about damages.

	25-05-2005 21:53									#48
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che, Hha! that's a good point! I agree!

	25-05-2005 21:54									#49
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quote: the people are offended. the government should act.

And I don't think that's a civilized response. Seriously, sometimes it appears that people want a mammy, not a government of laws.

	25-05-2005 21:55									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DanS And I don't think that's a civilized response.

no, you dont believe that the laws should represent common decency.

	25-05-2005 21:55									#51
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Hell, it's the opposite of freedom of speech. If you can't say something for fear of hurting someone's feelings, you can't say anything.

	25-05-2005 21:55									#52
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paiktis, yeah but I can say hurtful lies if I want to. No problem. It might be stupid but I have the right to say them. It's NOT a crime.

	25-05-2005 21:56									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Slander isn't about offense, it's about damages.

oh that's the easiest thing to prove. damages.

	25-05-2005 21:56									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka paiktis, yeah but I can say hurtful lies if I want to. No problem. It might be stupid but I have the right to say them. It's NOT a crime.

Unless they cause demonstratable harm to someone's reputation.

	25-05-2005 21:58									#55
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yes of course. That's a slander if it makes someones life difficult because their reputation is ruined and no one hires them etc. for example. That's doing actual damage.

So can I say Islam is stupid or does that offend some extremists again? Who draws the line? makes no sense..

	25-05-2005 21:58									#56
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 oh that's the easiest thing to prove. damages.

It's easy enough. If you wrote a book calling me a pediphile, I could sue for damages and win. If you wrote a book saying that communism was a philosophy of hate, I might be offended, but I'd have no grounds for suing you.

	25-05-2005 21:58									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Hell, it's the opposite of freedom of speech. If you can't say something for fear of hurting someone's feelings, you can't say anything.

I agree

	25-05-2005 21:58									#58
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Hell, it's the opposite of freedom of speech. If you can't say something for fear of hurting someone's feelings, you can't say anything.

freedom of speech is not synonimus with slander.
with freedom comes responsibility to your fellow man
the laws obey that. it's an order you give them!

if you feel ok with people swearing everything you hold true and holy then ok, no problem. i dont, society at large doesnt (most at least societies) and so the laws obey that.

it's common sense
freedom of speech is not the wild riot to hurt whoever you want to just becasue you can. you cant. and that's civilization. again your lock and smith never grasped any of it.

	25-05-2005 22:00									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's easy enough. If you wrote a book calling me a pediphile, I could sue for damages and win. If you wrote a book saying that communism was a philosophy of hate, I might be offended, but I'd have no grounds for suing you.

as i said proving damages is the easiest thging in the world.

she says islam is a religion of hate..
0. she lies. ass in jail.
1. she hurts people. ass in jail
2. she offends religious feeling. ass in jail
3. a little muslim girl gets attacked out of the blue. insiting hate. ass in jail.


easy money

	25-05-2005 22:00									#60
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Freedom of speechs != slander. Slander does damages. Wait, I'm repeating what che says..