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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:22
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quote:
Here's a thought...perhaps if they, as a group would loudly condemn the bad seeds among them who do things like blow up airplanes and cafe's filled with innocent civilians, just MAYBE global opinion would not have reached such a low that they'd be in NEED of this kind of third party protection.
I mean, how many times did I hear the Catholic Church rant and rave and openly condemn the IRA for the same nonsense in Eire? |
The catholic Church is a religion with a clear hierarchy, and a worldwide spiritual leader that can speak for the whole religion. Sunni Islam is no more centralized than US protestants.
In France, the government strived to have a body that can be seen as the local "leader" of the Muslim faith. AFAIK, it always condemns the terrorists and other forms of religious hatred (we have a problem with Muslim antisemitism).
When protestant cults massacre people on the other side of the world (more precisely, in Uganda), do you hear the outrage from "the protestants". Closer to home, when Phelps desacralizes a funeral, you probably hear outrage from individual protestant churches, but where is the outrage of "the protestants" to be seen?
If there was such a thing as a Muslim pope, you can bet you'll often hear the guy condemning the terrorists. But there is no more Muslim pope than there is a protestant pope, and the nutjobs are free from condemnation by a spiritual authority.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:22
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edited
I'm saying, if you take religion of any kind that limits your freedom of speech, it doesn't belong in the west. Period. West has fundies of them own already.
Last edited by Pekka on 26-05-2005 at 04:31
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Spiff, It's not one leader people need to hear the condemning. It's at least some credible organisation |
Agreed. However, it's not that simple.
Sunni Islam is a religion where anybody and his dog can become a priest, just like protestantism. As a result, there is a great variety of doctrines, that are more or less liberal/reactionary. Islam is "organized" in these different churches, that act as organizations representatives of themselves.
The French experience shows that it is difficult to unite them into a cohesive organization. It has been years since the "Council of the Muslim Belief" has been created at the French government's initiative, and the internal politicking are still crippling. On the divisive issue of the headscarf ban, the Council pretty much splitted up. The only reason why it still exists today is because of the life support provided by the government.
Now, not many countries will try to actually create a central authority for Islam where none exists. Imagine what happens when a non-state-sponsored organization of this kind meets a divisive question: it splits up, just like Muslim denominations have done since Muhammed.
As such, Sunni Islam is pretty much doomed to have a great many small-scale leaders that represent only themselves and a small following. This is the reason why, even when one sees a liberal Imam on TV who condemns everything you want, one can't really think "the Muslims think so". Simply because the liberal Imam doesn't represent anybody but himself.
I don't want to depict a rosy picture. Radical Islam feeds off hatred, the hatred exists, and has causes that are religious as well as national/historical. In particular, the hatred will be especially strong among the most reactionary Muslim populations: the ones in the middle East (the ones in North Africa and in Southeastern Asia seem to be much less uptight).
But it's absurd to say that there is no outrage. Sunni Islam is varied enough that there is outrage, and not an unsignificant one. But maybe the reason why I know it is because, over here, Muslim outrage does get air time.
I'd like to add for Che that, no matter how tempting it is to paint the Muslims with a broad brush, it's still wrong. If you look at the reasons and the manifestations of the hatred, you'll see that religion plays a rather secondary role. The promotion of radical Islam is strongly related with politics (most notably, with Saudi funding of wahabite hatemongers) and with frustrated nationalism. The most fertile ground for these beliefs are the backward areas of socially backward countries (most of the Middle East). It's no surprise that the loathable radical Islam, whose agenda is to restore the dark ages, comes from countries where pre-enlightenment ideas are still very prevalent.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
See above quote about respecting religions, Spiff.  |
I have no respect for Islam either. Actually, I think Shiite Islam manages to be even more bollocks, spirituality-wise, than other major religions.
However, I notice this board is increasingly bigoted toward Islam (and I think I am becoming bigoted toward it as well). There is much ignorance of how Islam works, and there is the willingness to depict Muslims as bloodthirsty idiots, whose only aim is to kill the infidel.
This is false. Islam is a complex thing, with complex internal politics, and a great many Muslims are people just as smart as you and me.
If I was posting in a board full of Muslims that paint Christians with a broad brush, saying the Christians are all barbaric decadent Crusaders, whose only aim is to prevent the rise of the Muslim nation, yada yada yada, I'd defend the Christians in face of such ignorance. And you know how much I love Christianty
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Oncle Boris
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Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
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I can't bother to read those 5 pages of thread to see if it's been said, but I read once a translation of a part of her book, it was really hateful, depicting Muslims as pigs, appealing to mass murder, etc.
Had she written something like this against Jews, people would probably agree with what is being done to her.
Last edited by Oncle Boris on 26-05-2005 at 07:21
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26-05-2005 03:12
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Vel.
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