16-06-2005 10:57									#61
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I think for the first time in Apolyton's history, someone has pwned MTG??

No, we weren't arguing about the same thing, apparently. He seems to have thought I was saying that the tape proved the Schindlers were being intentionally dishonest about Terri's condition. Actually, I was only saying that their editing of the tape shows they were being intentionally dishonest about what the tape depicted, given their refusal to release the full version.

	16-06-2005 10:58									#62
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Damn it -- thought this was an earth-shattering, unprecedented event.



guess not

	16-06-2005 11:01									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov But there's no reason to, since her husband (and presumed legal guardian) wants to keep her alive so the baby can be born. It's a no-brainer. Erm, I should rephrase that...

so cruel.

	16-06-2005 16:00									#64
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Yeah, that was a nice pun. Still, it is a no brainer and the only question is will he have the money to pay for this since he's only a 20 something. This is just another reason why we should have national health insurence so that people like this family won't have to be financially ruined in order to save the child.

	16-06-2005 16:10									#65
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun News headline at some point in future after Bush's death: Bush's brain autospy reveals deformities.

headline:

Bush's brain autospy cancelled after 2 month search for brain

	16-06-2005 19:41									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Because this is the end of the issue, where the truth is revealed.

Truth is subjective. You should know that!

	16-06-2005 20:36									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If she could feel pain, how must it have been for her to suffer from starvation for 2 weeks before finally succumbing?

As I've repeatedly stated, starvation doesn't hurt. I have starved before, and after the first couple of days, you don't even notice you aren't eating anymore. Hunger stops bothering you. You just go one with things as usual and you have stop to think, "have I had anything to eat today?" or you'll forget to eat something. I ate one to no meals a day for the month of February, 1989. By the end of the month I'd lost 15lbs and my 5'11" self was at 144lbs.

	16-06-2005 21:54									#68
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My grandmother "starved" to death when she was in the hospital with lung cancer. She'd been hooked up to a tube and was being sustained that way. She asked to be unhooked and let die. Now, she was lucid until almost the very end, so at any point she could have expressed to the people around her that she was in pain. But she never did, and the doctors explained that she wasn't in any discomfort, that her organs would gradually shut down and she was pass away from dehydration. My grandfather, mom and her siblings were there the whole time and it was a very peaceful, dignified way to go. Any sane person would rather do that than go through the agony of death via cancer, or spend 15+ years lingering like Schiavo did.

	17-06-2005 17:50									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Well, who cares if her brain was shriveled up to the size of a chimp's? The same was true of Strom Thurman, but he continued to perform his duties as a US senator for years, and years, and years, and years.

Interesting that you single out Thurman and ignore KKK leader Robert Byrd, who remains a higly honored Democrat senator. So long as that fascist pig remains coddled and honored by the Democrats, they and you have no right to declaim on Thurmond.

	17-06-2005 19:53									#70
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Ned, remember Dr.Strangelove is right down there living in that area, and I think he is talking about the state Strom was in when he finally kicked the bucket. Having spent a decade in West Virginia, Byrd is having some senior moments too. As did a certain nameless President who, given the progression of the disease, almost certainly had mid-stage Alzheimer's by the end of his Presidency (and most assuredly the early stage beyond a doubt) - teh Reagan.

	17-06-2005 19:56									#71
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Yeah, I was going to say, he was referring to Strom's dottering senility in his final years of the Senate.

I remember watching a clip of a speech he was giving on C-Span commemorating the Alamo. In it, he praised the Texans who fended off the horde of Russians. The beautiful part was seeing an aide in the background put his head in his hand in exhasperation...

	17-06-2005 20:24									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I was asking if you were saying that, because I can't figure out what the hell you're trying to say. The only thing that seems to make sense in the context of this argument was that you were saying just that. So I'll refrain from dining at the moment.

Lying is a matter of intent. Self-delusion, and irrationally rejecting all evidence to the contrary (a la fundamentalists, flat-earthers, etc.) is not.

quote: How the hell is that a strawman? You asked if a media outlet editing footage of a tape was an example of lying, and I said that if they did it the same way the Schindlers did it, then yes. That's not a strawman at all.

The specific editing doesn't make a difference. It's the intent behind the editing process - is it merely to condense at random (piss poor editing), or to tell a story ("fair and balanced?" )

quote: That's nice, dear, but doesn't at all address the point. I'll spell it out simple: 1. Schindlers video tape daughter 2. Schindlers selectively edit 4 hours down to 15 minutes 3. Schindlers give 15 minutes to judge as proof, and release 15 minutes to media 4. Judge sees it, but demands to see all 4 hours 5. Judge sees 4 hours, is singularly unimpressed, says the full tape shows she isn't responsive and rules against Schindlers 6. Schindlers refuse to this day to release all 4 hours, but still trumpet 15 minutes as proof of their claims.

You haven't spelled out squat.
1. tape daughter
2. most of the time, she's not responding real well because she's tired and it's hard work but she's trying, and she's done it before AND LOOK - SHES RESPONDING and oh, the poor dear, it's so hard for her because that nogoodsonofa***** won't care for her AND LOOK - SHE DID IT AGAIN...
3,4,5 blah blah
6 it's because those evil atheist Terri-killers want to gloat and want to take things out of context like that evil atheist liberal baby-eating cruel wicked judge who all ignored what she could do to focus on the times she was too worn out or distracted or stressed, the poor dear, but WE KNOW she was responsive blah blah

quote: Now, there's no reasonable way you can say the Schindlers are being honest about what the video depicts.

When did I say they were honest about anything? There's a little more nuance to human psychology than a straight line from "honest" to "lying." What I'm saying is that rather than a conscious, rational intent (a la Bill Clinton or George W. Bush), that their behavior and statements are a product of irrational self-delusion.

I'd bet my half my paycheck that if either were strapped down to a polygraph, they'd pass - because they don't believe they're lying.

quote: Since they refuse to release the entire video, they must know that it does not depict what they claim, as the judge stated. Else, why not release the whole thing?

First, what's the point? She's dead. Second, they've created a nice little us v. them worldview and had the likes of Randall Terry flock to them, so they've had plenty of people to spin things and reinforce the evil Godless liberal Terri-killers who want to gloat and justify what they did blah blah blah.

quote: The Schindlers were sincerely delusional about the state of the daughter, but they were quite insincere and dishonest when it came to that video tape.

You're assuming they'd have a different rationality and frame of mind about seeing their daughter all the time, vs. a four hour videotape of their daughter? The thought processes are one and the same, one's just sort of live and the other's Memorex.

	17-06-2005 23:53									#73
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Florida prosecutors will investigate the cause of Terri's "event" given the autopsy report and the reported long gap between the discovery of Terri in her collapsed condition and the 911 call. Michael Schiavo has said that he discovered Terri between 4:30 and 5 am, but his 911 call was not made until 5:40 am.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...1700350_pf.html

	18-06-2005 00:23									#74
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That Jeb Bush sure knows how to beat a dead horse

	18-06-2005 01:05									#75
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Cute. The autopsy shuts down their main claims, so hey, lets waste MORE taxpayer dollars to beat a dead horse and keep the Nedian nuts happy...

	18-06-2005 01:28									#76
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Can't we bury this issue already.

	18-06-2005 02:33									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Can't we bury this issue already.

No pun intended, I hope.

	18-06-2005 05:49									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski

	18-06-2005 07:07									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Well, who cares if her brain was shriveled up to the size of a chimp's? The same was true of Strom Thurman, but he continued to perform his duties as a US senator for years, and years, and years, and years.

she could have run for the senate - probably would have won - is that disabled?

	18-06-2005 07:21									#80
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If Mr. Schiavo had waited 40 to 70 minutes to call 911, Mrs Schiavo would have been DOA. Remember, her brain was without oxygen for only a few minutes. IIRC, unless the person was hypothermic when he/she stopped breathing, no human has lived more than ten minutes withtout breathing. No one has lived more than forty minutes without air, period, and that person was trapped under frozen ice. Any at least marginally intelligent human being can tell the man was confusing his times. It's so sad that some conseravtives need for Mr. Schiavo to be a murderer.

	18-06-2005 07:38									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ned What I don't understand (yet) is why the earlier bone scan showed trauma.

I'm going to take a wild guess here and say because THERE WASN'T ANY

	18-06-2005 13:58									#82
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I checked some of the previous stories. The bone scans showing the injuries were supplied by her parents. Now will some of you believe that they deliberately, admittedly with wishfulness instead of malice, edited the video tapes. And speaking of malice, the false scans definitely show that. Mr. Schiavo should probably sue them for libel (if the autopsy results don't show the claimed injuries), but he probably just wants to get on with his life.

	18-06-2005 19:22									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I'm going to take a wild guess here and say because THERE WASN'T ANY

Horse, no bone scan or no trauma?

	18-06-2005 19:26									#84
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc I checked some of the previous stories. The bone scans showing the injuries were supplied by her parents. Now will some of you believe that they deliberately, admittedly with wishfulness instead of malice, edited the video tapes. And speaking of malice, the false scans definitely show that. Mr. Schiavo should probably sue them for libel (if the autopsy results don't show the claimed injuries), but he probably just wants to get on with his life.

Not true. The parents first learned of them in the last couple of years. They were in Terri's medical records. An attorney took the attending doctor's depo regarding the bone scans. She appeared live on the Hannity show one night and described the depos.

The Schindler's did not learn of the bone scan earlier because they were denied access to Terri's medical records.

However, what puzzles me is why the autopsy report does not deal with the issue of the bone scans. Or, perhaps it did, but we are not hearing about it.

	18-06-2005 20:22									#85
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Ned, I only have one thing to say to you.


edit: spelling fix

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 19-06-2005 at 00:21

	18-06-2005 21:33									#86
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ned, I only have on thing to say to you.

We're waiting

	18-06-2005 22:05									#87
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I think I can guess.

	18-06-2005 22:59									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Interesting that you single out Thurman and ignore KKK leader Robert Byrd, who remains a higly honored Democrat senator. So long as that fascist pig remains coddled and honored by the Democrats, they and you have no right to declaim on Thurmond.

I thought about including several others, but it developed into a multi-page run-on sentence so I cut it back to just one.

	18-06-2005 23:24									#89
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quote: Would you argue a mouse is sentient? Then I guess it must have a right to life.

Yes, I suspect mice have something close enough to human consciousness that we'd justifiedly call them sentient.

Now, someone tell me where the notion that sentience is necessary and sufficient condition for having a right to life came from.

	19-06-2005 04:13									#90
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If Mr. Schiavo had waited 40 to 70 minutes to call 911, Mrs Schiavo would have been DOA. Remember, her brain was without oxygen for only a few minutes. IIRC, unless the person was hypothermic when he/she stopped breathing, no human has lived more than ten minutes withtout breathing. No one has lived more than forty minutes without air, period, and that person was trapped under frozen ice. Any at least marginally intelligent human being can tell the man was confusing his times. It's so sad that some conseravtives need for Mr. Schiavo to be a murderer.

Che, makes sense and perhaps is a clue as to what really happened. I think the record states also that he called at least Bobby Schindler before he called 911. Bobby arrived before the paramedics.