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hexagonian
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Gnawing on your mind...
Jun 1999
time: 23:18
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Wow! The series continues to amaze me as an enjoyable read.
I have to say that I felt all along that Snape would do something extremely despicable throughout the series, but I maintained also that he would be redeemed at the end of the series. In fact, after the second chapter, I 'knew' for sure that Dumbledore was the target and Snape would be the triggerman. I was ticked off that JKR revealed that Snape took the unbreakable vow because it established the plot for the rest of the book.
But after finishing it, I see why she did it. Snape gets painted into a corner, and reveals to Dumbledore what happened. Dumbledore realizes that means he could very well die, and decides that he will do so if it comes to that point. He accelerates Harry's training to reveal what Harry needs to know to defeat Voldemort, and gives him a taste of what he will face when he starts locating the various Horcruxes.
Dumbledore is not dumb. He know what Malfoy was doing from the start. Yet he still tries to redeem him with love. Dumbledore's plan keeps Malfoy safe, and keeps Snape safe to weave his web of half-truths to even protect Malfoy when Voldemort hears from the others about Malfoy's hesitation.
The series is about the choices people have to make. What Malfoy does with the choice is up to him. He may sink further and may ultimately fall totally under the spell of Voldemort, but it is not because he didn't have a chance. And Dumbledore is all about giving people the chance to choose what they will do. After all, he gave one to Tom Riddle...
Dumbledore knows that ultmately, it is Harry that matters, and that his own part in this is unimportant when compared to Harry's role. He says so specifically. And for this he is willing to die.
Sacrificial love - taking the hard road over the easy, loyalty to a higher cause. These are the themes the JKR wants to present. And she does so very well with what happens in this book.
Book it - the series is as much about the redemption of Snape as it is about Harry. And Snape knows what he is doing.
Last edited by hexagonian on 25-07-2005 at 21:03
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ajbera
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of the Cookieville Minimum Security Orphanarium
Apr 1999
time: 05:18
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Well, aside from the shock of the "murder", I bought Snape's apparent treachery because I thought it was staggering for Rowling to teach young readers about the sad fallability of even the wisest and most powerful. I can even accept Snape as a villain because I think this is a very important lesson to learn, and the impact is lessened if Snape was following D's wishes after all.
So, on the one (preferred) hand, Snape is still on the good side, and D's fallability is largely unshaken, or Snape is evil, and D, for all his wisdom and insights, is proven fatally wrong. I'll accept it either way, but I prefer Snape to be good, though a bit of a bastard.
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Verto
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Enough that his name would be the boogy-man name. I know we'll get Dumbledore's story in the next book (JKR hints at it), but don't you think he would have gotten a prominent Death Eater at least? Run in Voldemort at least once? I mean there is only so much talking tough can do. Sometimes you have to get in and kill with your hands.
It seems the Dumbledore just led the OotP and didn't directly participate in any of the raids. |
We have no idea, really. We know for sure that many prominent Death Eaters were sent to Azkaban prior to HP&SS, although we don't know who was responsible for their capture.
As far as the Wizarding world's fear of Voldemort goes, think of him as being similar to Osama bin Laden, in that neither was directly involved in the attacks (AK, 9/11) but both are the face of evil. A clumsy analogy, but it suits the purpose. We know surprisingly little about Voldemort and the Death Eater/s methods/history, save they were bad, people died, etc.
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Verto
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You've guessed the obvious difference... OBL isn't the one personally capable of the strongest attacks  . OTOH, Voldemort was without a doubt the strongest wizard in England, with perhaps the exception of Dumbledore. For big things, I'm sure he was personally involved.
Being quite a loner with no friends, he seems like the kind of person who wouldn't be satisfied with some jobs unless he did them, because he knew how to get them done perfectly. |
I agree, which is why Voldemort himself went to Harry's house. At the same time, he left other tasks to the Death Eaters: who, for example, was the one responsible for driving Neville's parents insane?
quote:
It just seemed to me that Dumbledore was Headmaster at the same time as Voldemort came to power, and that was taking away some of his time hunting for Voldemort. |
Of course. Just as Dumbledore could not concentrate solely on Voldemort in HBP, he had to balance his responsibilities - not only with Hogwarts, but the Ministry, etc.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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quote:
I agree, which is why Voldemort himself went to Harry's house. At the same time, he left other tasks to the Death Eaters: who, for example, was the one responsible for driving Neville's parents insane? |
But I'm sure for the biggest things, Voldemort was personally involved, at least telling everyone where to go during a battle.
quote:
Just as Dumbledore could not concentrate solely on Voldemort in HBP, he had to balance his responsibilities - not only with Hogwarts, but the Ministry, etc. |
Why didn't Dumbledore just give those up until the threat was done? I understand that Harry is the prophesied one, so he's gotta stick around somewhat. But before? Use all your time to take the bad guy out.
Was Dumbledore balancing 5 things when he disposed of Grindlewald?
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Nacht
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Amsterdam
May 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Why didn't Dumbledore just give those up until the threat was done? I understand that Harry is the prophesied one, so he's gotta stick around somewhat. But before? Use all your time to take the bad guy out.
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But Voldemort can't be killed. He who took more steps towards immortality than any wizard before. We don't know for how long Dumbledore knew about the horcruxes.
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Nacht
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Amsterdam
May 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Dumbledore seems to have been responsible for Tom Riddle going to hogwarts- now, I am not sure if he was already headmaster back then (seems an awful long time that), but if he was, obviously he failed to control Tom Riddle an failed to stop the issues that would lead to0 him becoming Voldemort.
Again, I think that is what he means when he says his mistakes can be huge, and it goes to the issue of him trusting too much. |
Dumbledore wasn't headmaster at that time, according to the diary scene in Chamber of Secrets.
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Verto
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Viewing through various HP sites and participating in a few discussions, a couple details have been mentioned that I thought I'd share here.
Firstly, one that relates to the spell used by Snape to "kill" Dumbledore. Allegedly, it is the Avada Kedavra spell. However, a few minor points exist that cast some doubt as to whether this spell was, in fact, even cast.
Point 1: Dumbledore's reaction to the spell is very different from the description given of other victims. Here are a few.
quote:
He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumbled. He was dead before he hit the floor. (GoF pg 15/19)
From high above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say, "Kill the spare." A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to the night: "Avada Kedavra!" A blast of green light blazed through Harry's eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to ground beside him. Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him. He was dead. (GoF pg 638/553) |
They all merely fall to the ground, dead. However, Dumbledore..
quote:
was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he slowly fell backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight. (HBP pg 596/556) |
Perhaps this is a slip; perhaps Dumbledore is merely reacting differently, because of some protection or something else related to his extreme abilities.
However, I propose that the possibility exists that Snape did not, in fact, cast that spell at all. Consider how much emphasis was placed on nonverbal spells. Perhaps it is possible to say one spell, but be thinking and concentrating on another. Don't buy it? Well, perhaps Snape DID use the AK spell. There is another catch, provided in OotP regarding those spells:
quote:
Hatred rose in Harry such that he had never known before. He flung himself out from behind the fountain and bellowed "Crucio!" Bellatrix screamed. The spell had knocked her off her feet, but she did not writhe or shriek with pain as Neville had -- she was already on her feet again ... "Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?" she yelled. "You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain -- to enjoy it ..." (OotP pg 810/715) |
This helps the idea that Snape was only doing as ordered by Dumbledore, or that even if he wasn't, he didn't want to kill him.
Thanks to "Dumbledore Is Not Dead" for providing a cohesive, organized layout of all discussed.
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25-07-2005 19:55
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