15-07-2005 08:46									#1
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ET and I are going to post two different plans for the next 30 to 40 (or 60) turns or so. Feel free to work on your own. Mine should be up this evng.

	15-07-2005 09:24									#2
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Plan krill, with a barracks variant (his original suggestion of worker, then 3 enks, granery, settler).

T01, 4000: Start worker
T02, 3950: Irr, then road cow. Slider 0/100/0
T03, 3900:
T04, 3850:
T05, 3800:
T06, 3750: Worker cmplt > Enk. Wrkr1 Irr & rd complt > to bonus WF4 (mine & rd). Wrkr2 to WF1 (rd) then WF10 (mine & rd)
T07, 3700:
T08, 3650:
T09, 3600:
T10, 3550: Enk > Enk
T11, 3500
T12, 3450: Wrkr1 Mine & rd complt WF 4 > WF6 (rd) then WF17 (mine & rd)
T13, 3400: Enk > Enk
T14, 3350: Pop is 3, slider to 0/90/10 (1 Enk is guarding/garrison)
T15, 3300: Enk > Granery. Wrkr2 WF10 mine & rd complt > either of the forest & chop. Cashflow is -1gpt, IW in 9
T16, 3250:
T17, 3200:
T18, 3150: Pop is 4, slider to 0/80/20. Wrkr2 chop complet. Rd same tile
T19, 3100:
T20, 3050: Wrkr2 complt rd > begin roads on hills or towards city site
T21, 3000: Wrkr1 WF17 mine & rd complt > begin roads on hills or towards city site
T22, 2950: Granery complt > Enk. Pop is 5 (10spt) Slider to 70/0/30
T23, 2900: Enk > Settler
T24, 2850: Iron Working > ?. Treasury 2g. Slider to 30/30/40
T25, 2800:
T26, 2750: Settler > Barracks
T27, 2710:
T28, 2670: Pop is 5
T29, 2630:
T30, 2590: Barracks > Enk. Pop is 6.
T31, 2550: Enk > Settler. Stall growth so that Settler complts same turn as pop grows to 7
T32, 2510:
T33, 2470:
T34, 2430: Settler > Enk. Pop is 7 > 5
T35, 2390: Enk > Settler
T36, 2350: Pop is 6
T37, 2310:
T38, 2270: Settler > Enk. Pop is 7 > 5
Tz1: Vet Enk > Settler
Tz2, Pop is 6
Tz3,
Tz4, Settler > Enk. Pop is 7 > 5
Tz1: Vet Enk > Settler
Tz2, Pop is 6
Tz3,
Tz4, Settler > Enk. Pop is 7 > 5
Tz1: Vet Enk > Settler
Tz2, Pop is 6
Tz3,
Tz4, Settler > Enk. Pop is 7 > 5
Tz1: Vet Enk > Settler
Tz2, Pop is 6
Tz3,
Tz4, Settler > Enk. Pop is 7 > 5
Tz1: Vet Enk > Settler
Tz2, Pop is 6
Tz3,
Tz4, Settler > Enk. Pop is 7 > 5
etc...

Last edited by notyoueither on 15-07-2005 at 09:33

	15-07-2005 09:46									#3
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This has us working roaded river as much as possible. The game is left on the forest for the 4th 2spt tile (plus Poly, plus cow) to make 10spt. River grass is roaded for the WF to produce more comm than they take to keep happy when the city is at size 6 (or if we should have to go to 7). Due to high commerce, we get IW early and may proceed to other SGL and resource tech targets.

We see iron just before the first settler, all the better to beeline to it and settle.

Improved tiles are available for new WF as soon as they hit the map.

Two workers are available for 6 turns prior to the settler to build roads to a site and make improvements to maximise city 2 from turn a.

Finally, we have a 4 turn VetEnk-Settler pump. My only fear about this plan is that some other civ could do it too. We must assume that all 6 civs have the same capability, except... noone else has a 10sh 2def unit. However, they will be able to produce a quantity of vet warriors for later upg...

	15-07-2005 12:34									#4
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it seems fine

with 3 warriors when we start building granary we should be well defended

Granary completed on turn 21, 4th warrior on the next turn

	15-07-2005 12:42									#5
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Looks like a very good plan nye. I'll have to see what E_T's plans are though to compare.

I like that we have a Barracks pretty soon to pump out Vets.

	15-07-2005 16:34									#6
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I like the plan. It seems to be the most efficient use of the resources. Barracks built relatively early, so vet enks will be produced instead of regs. Archer rush still remains a possibility if we find a neighbour very early.

I would however build at least one settler before granary if I were playing this alone. There may be more bonus resources near.

	15-07-2005 18:01									#7
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I too think a quick Settler (after two Enkidus and a Worker) should be used. It seems important to me that we claim that Game tile and make another Settler/Worker pump quickly. I mean by putting the second city at 999 or 998 from the capital (numpad directions), and only then going for the Granary. This civ is best for peaceful REX, remember? Let us make it count.

	15-07-2005 18:34									#8
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now i ask here..sorry for asking in 2 threads ...

wf = ?

need a instruction how here the discription work to discripe moving worker....

and 3 enkidu than granary = we should have then well explored the terrain around our capitol.

	15-07-2005 20:36									#9
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WF = work force. The labourers in the city screen.

	15-07-2005 20:44									#10
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Trust me, when I simmed this out, it is better to produce the granary first, and then the settler. It nets us about another 4 pop points, and that is taking into account growth from the second city.

	15-07-2005 21:30									#11
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Looks like a very good plan nye. I'll have to see what E_T's plans are though to compare. I like that we have a Barracks pretty soon to pump out Vets.

I'm working on presenting it, but RL intruedes somewhat...

My current plans (and looking at Krills for comparison), only were concerned with getting the Pump up and primed, in which I had only improved 2 tiles (the Cows at WF #5 and the Bonus Grass at WF #4). I wanted to just see about getting that part of it going, not with any major changes, like nye's. nye's has gone further than that, with the barracks & EW/Settler pump.

Also, I was not certain as to where we would be placing 2nd city, so I was holding the workers in reserve, so to speak, to work towards those cities and get them ready for them to be built. As I stated, I was only looking at getting the pump up, with budgettary concernces, too.

But I'm looking over nye's stuff some now.

E_T

	15-07-2005 21:44									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

nye, I'm having problems with your Sim. Did you play it in PBEM,. but continued game instead of saving and reloading every turn?? Because, if so, that screws up the worker times.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Plan krill, with a barracks variant (his original suggestion of worker, then 3 enks, granery, settler). T01, 4000: Start worker T02, 3950: Irr, then road cow. Slider 0/100/0 T03, 3900: T04, 3850: T05, 3800: T06, 3750: Worker cmplt > Enk. Wrkr1 Irr & rd complt > to bonus WF4 (mine & rd). Wrkr2 to WF1 (rd) then WF10 (mine & rd)

Worker #1 finished Irr on T05 (was frozen - 4 turns to complete from start of Irr 1st - T02, 2nd - T03, 3rd - T04, 4th - Finish/frozen - T05). Starts Roading this turn, 3 turns to complete, Road finished/Frozen on T08, can move on T09. Still evaluating, sending Worker #2 to same as you.

[EDIT]
Even Industral Workers wouldn't be able to move: 3 turns Irr, 2 turns road; from start of Irr 1st - T02, 2nd - T03, 3rd - Finish/frozen - T04, start if road 1st - T05, 2nd - Finished/frozen - T06. Can move on T07. So, your Model is very, very off.

Please redo and represent. Good effort none the less...
[/edit]


Here is the save for turn before this turn, from my sim. [2nd Edit] This is a PBEM save, the second civ is AI, on a desert island. No Password, so as soon as save, reload it you come back to us. Fastest way to do this. DO NOT Continue game, MUST save and reload. Only way to make sure we have an accurate Simulation.[/edit]

E_T

	15-07-2005 21:52									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Krill Trust me, when I simmed this out, it is better to produce the granary first, and then the settler. It nets us about another 4 pop points, and that is taking into account growth from the second city.

Does it take into account the much quicker Granary of the second city? Just asking...

	15-07-2005 22:05									#14
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Yay, I remember some HTML code

	15-07-2005 22:55									#15
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Sod it, I hate typing...

Basically, Build queue is Worker, Enk, Enk, Enk, Granary, Settler. I completely ignored commerce, except when MMing.

Basically, Worker 1, moved 2, Irrigate, roaded, moved 7, roaded, moved 4, mined, roaded, moved 6, mined.

Worker 2 (built turn 5) moved 3, mined, roaded, moved 8, chopped, roaded, moved 7.

Worker 2 was built on turn 5, Enk1 on T9, E2 T12, E3 T14, Granary, T21, E4 T22, Settler T 26.

7 turns until we finish IW

---

Something that NYE forgot to check, was that when Poly grows to size 4, we can use a forest to slow growth, so that the granary completes before growth takes place, so we have a net sddition of 5 food (in other words, we save a turn.)

What we would lose (and this is probably due to NYEs' mistakes) is the Enkidu on built on turn 23. We get it a turn earlier.

The attached .rar file contains every single turn from the one that ET posted above, therefore if anyone thinks that a settler prior to the granary should be the way to go, can show us the way.

Attachment: c3c isdg start sim.rar
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	15-07-2005 23:10									#16
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There doesn't seem to be anything in that rar file.

	15-07-2005 23:11									#17
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Nevermind.

	15-07-2005 23:20									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

So that people understand this, at Turn 26, Apolyton is not capable of the reg Enk/Settler cycle.

I moved W2 onto the game tile to chop it, and Irrigate it so that City2 could grow quickly, but if it is deemed that we need more military, W2 can move onto the bonus grassland tile 99 of Apolyton, and mine it. Apolyton would have to build either settler3, or two workers, before it could start the Enk/settler cycle. (Hence the Enk/settler cycle would start on turn 30).

Personally, I think that building a barracks in Apolyton is a waste of time. Just go with the Reg Enks, and we can send them out ot fight barbs if we need to, but we will require MPs for a while, and Reg units are just as good at this as vet units. We also gain more pop if we don't build a barracks (more workers to get the other pump and other cities up and running, cities that will build barracks and units.)

	15-07-2005 23:33									#19
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Here is the save for turn before this turn, from my sim. [2nd Edit] This is a PBEM save, the second civ is AI, on a desert island. No Password, so as soon as save, reload it you come back to us. Fastest way to do this. DO NOT Continue game, MUST save and reload. Only way to make sure we have an accurate Simulation.[/edit] E_T

I think if you load the game under "Multiplayer" and choose "load game" and then choose "turn based" you get the same results a if it were a PBEM. This way you don't have to save every turn and can just hit "end turn", wait for the AI to do their turn, then go ahead with your next turn. give it a try.

	15-07-2005 23:43									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Granary first, for sure. I'd probably build a granary even before one or two of those enk.s ... but as Krill presents it is very sound IMO.

	15-07-2005 23:46									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Krill We also gain more pop if we don't build a barracks

We also gain less flexibility if we don't build barracks. We can't opt for an archer rush if we don't have vet units. And we may need to go militaristic if the situation dictates that.

	15-07-2005 23:49									#22
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Ljube, the saves are right there, why don't you go and sim out the game and see what sort of force you can come up with by turn 30?

	15-07-2005 23:59									#23
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Ljube, Archer-rushing with a civ geared for peaceful REX is so counter-productive, I can not imagine such a situation, really. If someone is close, they will be the ones trying to rush, or else we can engulf them with our cities. And for defense, we have cheap Enkidus, be they Regulars.

EDIT: I played with your sim, Krill. I see your point. A Granary it is.

So everyone understands: To make the quick Settler count we would have to forego building Enkidus early, which would make us dead meat if anyone came around. This is not really an option...

Last edited by Modo44 on 16-07-2005 at 00:09

	16-07-2005 00:01									#24
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Modo, I suggest one-on-one PBEM. Give me Sumer, you take any civ without defence 3 defender and I'll show you the rush.

	16-07-2005 00:06									#25
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To Krill: I agree that your plan of neglecting military in favour of population growth and expansion is superior to any other in case we can execute it without any intrusion.

However, please tell me what provisions you made for the event that some aggressive neighbour should decide to eliminate us. What happens if someone really comes with some sort of military?


EDIT: Excuse me for not giving any sims. I really suck at sims and micromanagement in general. I'm generally focused on the bigger picture.

Last edited by Ljube on 16-07-2005 at 00:12

	16-07-2005 00:15									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube However, please tell me what provisions you made for the event that some aggressive neighbour should decide to eliminate us. What happens if someone really comes with some sort of military?

It depends on when anyone can come to us...

quote: From: http://forums.civfanatics.com/archi...hp/t-44827.html 1500BC (Turn 61) City2 builds Archer4, set to build Archer City3 builds Archer5, set to build Archer First task force with 1 Spearman and 5 Archers leaves

That is for a suited civ, and a full commitment to the rush. By that time we will have at least one Barracks city (and/or a bunch of free roaming Reg Enkidus...), and the capability to build Enkidus on per-turn basis. Not to mention the easy pop-rushing in really bad circumstances. I really think we are safe enough. Hence no need to rush anyone, as our REX should remain superior even if we have to defend.

	16-07-2005 00:21									#27
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Modo, I destroyed many civs before 1500 BC.

For instance, in Youth in Asia 2 I archer rushed Korea with China destroying it in 1625 BC.


EDIT: Believe it or not, I too prefer peaceful coexistence and REXing if I am allowed to do it. But above all I am vigilant. That vigilance often leads to early military showdowns.

	16-07-2005 00:29									#28
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OK, I'll run a sim of it, but, well, give me half an hour...

	16-07-2005 00:35									#29
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Modo, I read this ultra-early archer rush guide. It lists civs best suited for archer rush, but it only takes the original civs into consideration.
Summer has a perfect defence for archers and the army need not be only archer army, can also have greater share of enkidus (they are pretty good at attacking too and damn good at defending).

	16-07-2005 00:35									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube Modo, I destroyed many civs before 1500 BC. For instance, in Youth in Asia 2 I archer rushed Korea with China destroying it in 1625 BC.

Cool, but that is still a long time after 2710 BC where, according to Krill's sim, we could have a Settler-pump along with a Settler and another soon to follow. It means three cities, one of which could (and maybe should?) start by making enough Regular Enkidus for us to feel safe. The other one would be our second Settler/Worker pump. By that count, we should easily have a useful defensive military by 2000 BC latest. Remember how cheap Enkidus are. Remember we have Enkidus, not they!

quote: Originally posted by Ljube EDIT: Believe it or not, I too prefer peaceful coexistence and REXing if I am allowed to do it. But above all I am vigilant. That vigilance often leads to early military showdowns.

I don't.