19-07-2005 04:44									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Why have both at the same time, though? If it's being a food pump it doesn't need quite that many shields to build a 4-turn settler. Even less for a 2-turn worker.

Poly needs the game tile with forest intact to do VetEnk-Settler every 4 turns, unless...

If we get lucky and we find a bonus grass under the trees, then the game tile could be used by a second pump.

	19-07-2005 05:30									#92
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Ah, didn't realize that.

Edit: And I should have read you more closely. Yeah, for Enk-Settler, but settlers alone should be good enough once we get other cities set up.

	19-07-2005 05:34									#93
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Turn 0: Size 5, no food in box, no shields in box, 10spt, set build to Enkidu.

Turn 1: Size 5, 1/2 full food box, 10 shields completes Enkidu. Set build to Worker.

Turn 2: Size 5, worker complete, still making 10spt.

OR

Turn 0: Size 5, no food in box, no shields in box, 10spt, set build to Enkidu.

Turn 1: Size 5, 1/2 full food box, 10 shields completes Enkidu. Set build to Settler.

Turn 2: Size 6, no food in box, 10 shields towards Settler.

Turn 3: Size 6, 1/2 full food box, 20 shields towards Settler.

Turn 4: Size 5, no food in box, no shields in box, Settler complete.

This allows for:
1 turn Enkidu
1 turn Worker
1 Turn Enkidu
3 turn Settler

You can mix it up and do just Enkidu/Worker or just Enkidu/Settler depending on your needs.

Another scenario allows for a 20 shield unit to be built.

Turn 0: Size 5, no food in box, no shields in box, 10spt, set build to Archer.

Turn 1: Size 5, 1/2 full food box, 10 shields towards Archer.

Turn 2: Size 6, empty food box, Archer complete. Set build to Worker.

Turn 3: Size 5, 1/2 full food box, Worker complete. Set build to Settler.

Turn 4: Size 6, empty food box, 10 shields towards Settler.

Turn 5: Size 6, 1/2 full food box, 20 shields towards Settler.

Turn 6: Size 5, empty food box, Settler complete.


Rinse and repeat depending on what your needs are.

	19-07-2005 09:51									#94
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@BF, can you post details of your Plan?



As we are going with the Worker first, I want to start getting more of the different plans set into the sheets (for tweeking purposes).

Also, lets not go beyond too much further, as we are at points in all of the plans/sims where terrain uncertanties really make long range/detailed plans of this scope start having too may things happening in real save to adiqately plan for.

Examples:
Having Iron/Horses/Luxes close by:
- might have to change city placement to incorporate them properly.
- Sending workers to connect them.
Bonus Grass in FoW where we plan to have a city founded in a plan - Settling slightly differently from posted plan.
Finding Coast - Changing city site to get next to.
Finding a Choke Point that we want to send a settler to, instead of settling nearby.
And a host of other things that can change, over time.

So, we are at a point where we just don't know enough. So, now that we have a general idea of what we are going to do, lets remember to stay flexible enough to be able to change with the circumstances.

E_T

	19-07-2005 10:14									#95
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Boy, it's hard to rember exactly what I did, but I beleive my first builds went:
w,w,e,e,e,e,w,g,e,s

I then went with a plan that included the build orders in a post a made before this one.

The first e went out to scout, I believe I waited till the 3rd e to sent out a second scout and the 5th e was the 3rd scout with the other two doing MP.

What was key was to get the bonus grassland's mined before the settler was finished.

I may run it again and try to keep track of what I did or at least save every turn.

	19-07-2005 10:20									#96
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just doon't bother going beyond turn 40

E_T

	19-07-2005 11:14									#97
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Poly needs the game tile with forest intact to do VetEnk-Settler every 4 turns, unless... If we get lucky and we find a bonus grass under the trees, then the game tile could be used by a second pump.

Except tht having a second pump even if no Enkidus can be put between Settlers is still better than having just one. We just need to use the soutern city for Enkidus by starting it off as a military camp. Otherwise we would be forfeiting a large growth advantage, which seems like a big waste to me.

	19-07-2005 15:04									#98
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dp

Last edited by Krill on 19-07-2005 at 15:12

	19-07-2005 15:11									#99
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Yah, the choice with the Game tile is a pain, to be sure. That is why I left it alone, and would leave it alone, until the granary in the city that will use the game is online. Then we can chop the game (or time it to chop after the granary).

That should give us enough time to churn Enks from Poly to keep us safe. And although I have not simmed this out, I reckon going with Reg Enks will allow us to field a better defence, as we will have a hell of a lot more of them.

---

quote: Oh please Krill, workers cost maintenance. How many workers do you have in mind?

I see from your enlightened post that you do not understand the efficiency that can be gained from worker pumps. Ever thought of adding those workers to cities? Ever thought of how quicky our core could be at size 12 (or whatever we need it to be), ever thought of the sheer amount of or extra shields and gold that we could bring in.

It's tried, It's tested, It Works.

	19-07-2005 15:46									#100
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Of course, I add workers to core cities, sure. The plan is fine, but again if we can be left alone to execute it the way we like it.

The way I see it, excessive workers and granaries are just stealing maintenance from soldiers.

	19-07-2005 17:48									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube The way I see it, excessive workers and granaries are just stealing maintenance from soldiers.

You do not see it yet, then. There will be no excess Workers. All "excess" ones will be added to cities, allowing us to increase the support limit (along with the economy, let us not forget that) faster than by not building them (1. lowering support costs by "disbanding" the Worker, and 2. getting cities to size 7 really fast) .

Ever made a wonder city by making Workers, improving terrain, then adding them to it? Well, think about the power of, say, five of those, not really making wonders...

And we can still use the second or third (the southern) city for a simple Barracks city, providing the necessary cover.

	19-07-2005 18:21									#102
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Erm, with a start like this, I would try to get the worker pump up and running asap, and then pump up two cities so that they can reach 10 spt (at an acceptable size. however, it does not matter if these cities do not grow), and with a barracks, just churn out the Enkidus and some swords/horses.

Then start the expansion once again. If we have ivory close, though, scrap that idea.

	19-07-2005 18:43									#103
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With our current growth rate (and current lack of Luxes), while we REX, it would be best to save adding Workers to cities for a while yet.

We might have Gems on mountains or Iron on Mountain, that would need a number of workers to get it connected in a timely manner.

but still having the capability is good

But also remember a good rule of thumb, 2 regular workers per city is optimal.

It would be ice tohave some Hills ready to use, once we have a Gov change. Better for Wonder builds

E_T

	19-07-2005 21:09									#104
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quote: Originally posted by E_T But also remember a good rule of thumb, 2 regular workers per city is optimal. E_T

Isn't that a bit too much? Won't it jeopardise our ability to defend/attack? Or at least increase our maintenance expenses?

In despotism it is no problem, but if we switch to republic then every excessive worker costs 2 gold to maintain and prevents building more units. If we switch to monarchy (god forbid) then we're immediately screwed as we won't be able to research because our entire income will be directed to maintenance. On the other hand, if we do indeed decide to have 2 workers per each city, we will consequently have much less units than it is reasonable and thus become a target.

Can we agree that we will clear our continent of all civs before we apply this worker building policy?

	19-07-2005 21:36									#105
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Actually, no, Ljube. We want this many Workers early, so they can do the really important stuff (like improving the core, and I mean all of it). Later, when we switch to another government, we can add them to cities and watch the worked improved tiles do their magic.

Of course, we will need a whole bunch of Enkidus as protection, I am not denying that. But they are really cheap, so can be produced in large numbers, so no problem there. I believe defending will be easy regardless of our enemies, at least until Feudalism, possibly longer.

There is a limit to healthy paranoia, you know.

	19-07-2005 21:41									#106
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Mate, Ljube is part of BOH, so this is only the first inklings of paranoia we'll all see from him

	20-07-2005 10:52									#107
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I guess that that's what the slaves are supposed to be doing....

When it takes 12 turns to Mine a Hill, 18 turns to Mine a Mountain, you'll be glad that we have those Workers to do those jobs.

In the PTWISDG, we had 2 Worker Pumps and Lots of Industrious Workers (30 something, IIRC and they were the more powerful PTW Ind Workers) and lots of things still for them to do.

So, we will NEED every worker that we get. It will actually be hard to schedual when we will be adding them to cities, but we will be doing that. Just not immediately....

E_T

	20-07-2005 11:37									#108
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ET, here we should have something like one worker pump per every 8 or so cities, in adition to about 40 workers...

Forexample, in the PTWDG2, I have set up CoD so that we are producing 1.5 workers per turn, and have 60 workers already running around. And let me tell you now, the support costs for that game game a sky high, but still bearable.

	20-07-2005 16:23									#109
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i guess you can never have enough workers
of course once every tile is improved they are useless, but then we can add them to cities.
and of course the worker production musn't slow down the military production!

	20-07-2005 17:23									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Poly-Akryll i guess you can never have enough workers

Take the out of your statement, please. I will agree then.

quote: Originally posted by Poly-Akryll of course once every tile is improved they are useless, but then we can add them to cities.

Yep. Just remember that usually by the time everything "seems" to be done Steam Power gets researched.

quote: Originally posted by Poly-Akryll and of course the worker production musn't slow down the military production!

Hence the cheapest defender of them all.

	20-07-2005 19:43									#111
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I don't know guys. I usually do pretty well with 1 worker per two cities. Sometimes I have even less than that, but 1 worker per two cities somehow seems optimal to me. I love slaves though. You can never have enough slaves!!!

	20-07-2005 22:19									#112
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I usually overdo it with workers in my games; at times, having at least two per city.

	20-07-2005 22:42									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube I don't know guys. I usually do pretty well with 1 worker per two cities. Sometimes I have even less than that, but 1 worker per two cities somehow seems optimal to me. I love slaves though. You can never have enough slaves!!!

Well, you said it yourself. You need Slaves to do well with so few Workers. As we can not count on Slaves (no AI to milk), we will need to build our own "Slave" army.

Besides, doing "pretty well" is still worse than doing "incredibly well".

	22-07-2005 02:51									#114
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question:

there are differnts plans.

But they all plan with 1 worker than 3 enkidus - did i see that rigth?

I mean ist there maybe something already agreed till 1 piont and after that the diffrent way's follows?

sirleif

	22-07-2005 03:02									#115
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SL, the plans that were divised by nye and myself are indeed the same, up to a certain point, and that turn is 26.

What i meant in the turn threads was, to put it more bluntly:

Are we going to follow the plans, and ignore what everyone has to say (Barring significant developements), or will we just ignore the plans and not MM and not plan ahead?

	22-07-2005 05:36									#116
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I'm all for sticking with a plan. However, as we get more information about where we're located and once we meet other civs these plans are bound to change. So the planning should be up to a point with the understanding that modifications will likely need to be made.

So we can plan ahead and maybe have multiple plans. We should have a general plan and then get specific builds down to meet what we want to accomplish.

	22-07-2005 06:49									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Krill Are we going to follow the plans, and ignore what everyone has to say (Barring significant developements), or will we just ignore the plans and not MM and not plan ahead?

My intention is to follow 'the plan' up til turn 26.

If something comes up that throws a spanner in the works, then we will reexamine 'the plan'.

	22-07-2005 16:02									#118
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No plan survives first contact with the enemy...

	22-07-2005 23:53									#119
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither My intention is to follow 'the plan' up til turn 26. If something comes up that throws a spanner in the works, then we will reexamine 'the plan'.

The first Major Uncertanty in the plan comes at turn 20, when the chop is finished. Currently set to Road afterwards. but might want to change it, if it's a Bonus Grassland.

E_T

	22-07-2005 23:57									#120
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Boy, it's hard to rember exactly what I did, but I beleive my first builds went: w,w,e,e,e,e,w,g,e,s I then went with a plan that included the build orders in a post a made before this one. The first e went out to scout, I believe I waited till the 3rd e to sent out a second scout and the 5th e was the 3rd scout with the other two doing MP. What was key was to get the bonus grassland's mined before the settler was finished. I may run it again and try to keep track of what I did or at least save every turn.

BigFree, we need to get that Detail Info ASAP, so that it can be evaluated (and tweeked, if needed).

Please get it up as soon as possible, preferably with zip'ed up save files.

E_T