16-07-2005 07:42									#61
	Put an end to popups!

Turn 31, IW complete.

3 towns, 3 workers, 6 pop, one granary, 2 exploring Enkidus and 4 defending Enkidus, all reg. NO barracks (yet)

A mistake in the builds in the pic below. Sumer should be building a barracks, and that is where the forst chop will go.

Attachment: turn 31, krill plan.jpg
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	16-07-2005 07:48									#62
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Yeah, that barracks costs a fair bit. I'm assuming we will be in contact and might have someone close. If we do not have anyone close, we might delay it.

	16-07-2005 07:55									#63
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I'm just going through building a barracks now. What I did was to drop the population to size 4 by building 2 workers, when Apolyton was at 10spt. Then the Barracks took 5 turns to do, and I had to build yet more workers to stabilize it.

It might be best to just go with Reg Enkidus for a short while, then go for the barracks when we are ahead on the tile improvements.

	16-07-2005 08:02									#64
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On turn 40, The Wheel is researched. 3 towns, still, 2 exploringEnkidus but 5 defensive Enkidus, 6 workers, and 11 pop, one Granary and one barracks.

The thing that we lack to most are tile improvements.

Attachment: turn 40, krill plan.jpg
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	16-07-2005 08:31									#65
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Yes...

ET, are you having cities build their own garrisons?

	16-07-2005 11:52									#66
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This looks very promising.

As to the tech cost and the possible delay with research, I would not worry about it (while still trying to maximize things, of course ). Fact is, we can go a long way with Enkidus only, so Iron Working will be more for the benefit of trades and future military (and the mandatory SGL ). The early moves are about providing security and growth as fast as possible, and that should be easy enough to achieve.

	17-07-2005 01:31									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Krill On turn 40, The Wheel is researched. 3 towns, still, 2 exploringEnkidus but 5 defensive Enkidus, 6 workers, and 11 pop, one Granary and one barracks. The thing that we lack to most are tile improvements.

That's very nice. What is your build sequence?

	17-07-2005 02:11									#68
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm sad that I have not been able to run any simulations myself.

If we are to "gamble" a bit, I would say to build more workers earlier. Maybe skip a settler and do workers instead.

	17-07-2005 02:24									#69
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nope, that gamble is not really worth it.

A real gamble would be Enk > Settler > Worker >Enk > Enk > granary

Second city: Enk > Worker > Enk > granary

	17-07-2005 02:26									#70
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quote: That's very nice. What is your build sequence?

I can't remember. Let me find all of the saves.

	17-07-2005 02:48									#71
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.

Attachment: turn 24 to 40.rar
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	17-07-2005 04:38									#72
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I would greatly prefer 2 or even 3 enk prior to the settler. It would increase the size of our first city, making it more productive, and provides the scouting and defensive force we will need. I have done games where the first thing I buld was a settler, but it is a big gamble that I typically only use on the AI

	17-07-2005 10:46									#73
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I think you'll get them, GK.

All plans under discussion have at least three Enks prior to a settler.

	18-07-2005 04:26									#74
	This is my Plan with details, Part 1 Increase Your PM Length

First off, I had originally looked at different versions of the basic Plan, which was
-Get Scouts out as soon as possible
-Get the Settler Pump up and running
-Provide a Minimum (at start) Garrison to help with City happiness
-Maximize trade to get IW and later techs as soon as possible
-Try not to Chop a forest too early, saving them for later Marketplace builds. Also, to be able to use them to slow down the growth, when needed.

This originally, lead to a EW-EW-EW (3EW)-Gran-Pump plan. Two of the EW’s would be scouts, other would be garrison. But I then had a problem with the growth being a bit too rapid and (at the time - not having an actual save) the uncertainties of the full tile complement (or even if we would be moving the city). But, there was a lot of talk of the 4 turn pump, due to the food surplus, but (at the time) not enough Sheilds to get it to work well. See my post in 4000BC thread dealing with Requirements for 4 turn settler pump - and other considerations .

So, I had first Modified my plan, to get another worker out (3EW-Wrk-Gran-Pump). As, at size 3, the city was producing 5 SPT(Shields Per Turn), the worker would be built very quickly. I set this to be built after the 3 EW’s.

But the growth was still a little too rapid and it was not certain if we had a Lux close by. Also, with the 5 th Unit, we were above our free unit cost and once the Granary and the first settler was built (and before the 2 nd city was settled), our cash flow was not so good, and more was being taken away from the research effort. That, coupled with the Lux slider was sapping our early research effort.

So, I decided to take the Unit cost part out of the equation and get the first settler out before the Granary was built, as we had adequate Food Surpluses to get out Population back up very rapidly for the Granary build and later pump. And as that Settler was also best to build when we had a higher SPT, it was inserted after the Worker (3EW-Wrk-Settler-Gran-Pump). I didn’t really get into the full details of worker actions, as we still hadn’t had a save as of yet, so there was no point in having them do more than just the Irrigation/Road of the Cows (WF #5) and the Mining/Road of the Bonus Grassland (WF #4). But this plan was looking much better, from initial Impressions because we were getting IW much sooner (at turn 30). Then we finally got the save.

With Krill & nye both coming up with different plans, I needed to look into this much more. I compaired my plan with theirs. After simulations and spreadsheet work, I was able to get IW on turn 28 (with 3 beakers from the turn before). I still haven’t been able to get those last 3 beakers to get it 1 turn sooner, so when IW is finished, we have 17 gold in Treasury.

Because I had the first city built much sooner, the Unit cost factor was at a minimum and with both the settler and worker being built, the Lux slider amount was reduced, so I was actually able to put the full amount of research into IW and later, The Wheel

So, the details:
Note: turns 1 to 3 have been played, so I’ll will put in what was done in game for those turns
T01 - Apolyton Built, Wrk moved to Cows, Build set to Worker, Researching IW (180 beakers), Sliders 10/0/0. WF set to #5. Food Box 0 w/ 4 FPT (Food Per Turn surplus), 2 SPT output, 4 TPT (Trade per Turn)->+4GPT. Treasury 10 Gold.

T02 - Worker start Irrigating (4 turns to complete). Treasury 14, Sliders set to 0/10/0, 2 SPT w/ 2 shields towards worker build. Food box 4 w/ 4 FPT; 4 TPT=> 4 BPT (Beakers Per Turn) for IW (180 beakers left). +0 GPT.

T03 - 2 SPT w/ 4 shields towards worker build. Food box 8 w/ 4 FPT; 4 TPT=> 4 BPT (Beakers Per Turn) for IW (176 beakers left). +0 GPT.
Simulation/Spreadsheet stuff from here on

T04 -Change build to Enkidu Warrior (EW), 2 SPT w/ 6 shields towards EW build. Food box 12 w/ 4 FPT; 4 TPT=> 4 BPT (Beakers Per Turn) for IW (172 beakers left). +0 GPT.Set Governor to Emphasize Production.

T05 -Worker finishes Irrigation/frozen, +1 to Food box total. 2 SPT w/ 8 shields towards EW build. Food box 17 w/ 5 FPT; 4 TPT=> 4 BPT (Beakers Per Turn) for IW (168 beakers left). +0 GPT

T06 - City grows to size 2, with New WF on Forest (+2 Shields to build). EW built, with 2 shields over (lost), start Building second EW. This EW starts scouting, so sliders set to 0/8/2 (20% Lux). WF set to 4-5. 3 SPT w/ 0 shields towards EW build. Food box 0 w/5 FPT; 5 TPT=> 4 BPT for IW (164 beakers left) & 1 Lux. +0 GPT. Worker named Mr. Rush Job, start Roading (3 turns to complete).
Note: Lux slider set at 20% due to low trade balance, 10% is too little with only 5 TPT.

T07 -3 SPT w/ 3 shields towards EW build. Food box 5 w/ 5 FPT; 5 TPT=> 4 BPT for IW (160 beakers left) & 1 Lux. +0 GPT.

T08 -Mr. Rush Job finished Roading/frozen (+1 to TPT=>+1 BPT). 3 SPT w/ 6 shields towards EW build. Food box 10 w/ 5 FPT; Sliders set to 0/9/1 (10% Lux). 6 TPT=> 5 BPT for IW (155 beakers left) & 1 Lux. +0 GPT.

T09 -Mr. Rush Job moves to Bonus Grass (WF #4). 3 SPT w/ 9 shields towards EW build. Food box 15 w/ 5 FPT; 6 TPT=> 5 BPT for IW (150 beakers left) & 1 Lux. +0 GPT.

T10 - City grows to size 3, with New WF on Forest (+2 Shields to build). Second EW built, with 4 shields over (lost), start Building third EW. This EW Stays for Garrison Duty, keeping sliders at 0/9/1 (10% Lux). Mr. Rush Job starts Mining WF #4 (6 turns to complete). WF set to 3-4-5. 5 SPT w/ 0 shields towards EW build. Food box 0 w/ 4 FPT; 7 TPT=> 6 BPT for IW (145 beakers left) & 1 Lux. +0 GPT.

T11 - Borders Expand. WF set to 4-5-11. 5 SPT w/ 5 shields towards EW build. Food box 4 w/ 5 FPT; 7 TPT=> 6 BPT for IW (139 beakers left) & 1 Lux. +0 GPT.

T12 - Third EW built, with 0 shields over, start Building Worker #2. This EW starts scouting our surrounding area, for City sites, Luxuries and Huts, keeping sliders at 0/9/1 (10% Lux). 5 SPT w/ 0 shields towards Worker #2 build. Food box 9 w/ 5 FPT; 7 TPT=> 6 BPT for IW (133 beakers left) & 1 Lux. +0 GPT.

T13 - 5 SPT w/ 5 shields towards Worker #2 build. Food box 14 w/ 5 FPT; 7 TPT=> 6 BPT for IW (127 beakers left) & 1 Lux. +0 GPT.


T14 - Worker #2 built with 0 shields over, moves to WF #4, start building Settler. City size now 2, no Lux Needed, set Sliders to 0/10/0. Now over Free Unit amount. WF set to 4-5. 3 SPT w/ 0 shields towards Settler build. Food box 19 w/ 5 FPT; 6 TPT=> 6 BPT for IW (121 beakers left). Treasury 14 Gold, -1 GPT.

T15 - City grows to size 3, with New WF on Forest (+2 Shields to build). Mr. Rush Job finished Mining WF #4/frozen (+1 Shield to build => total of +3 Shields to the build). Worker #2 Starts Roading WF #4 (3 turns to complete). WF set to 4-5-11. Sliders set to 0/9/1 (10 % Lux). 6 SPT w/ 6 shields towards Settler build. Food box 0 w/ 5 FPT; 7 TPT=> 6 BPT for IW (115 beakers left) & 1 Lux. Treasury 13 Gold, -1 GPT.

T16 - Mr. Rush Job moves towards Game (WF #11). 6 SPT w/ 12 shields towards Settler build. Food box 5 w/ 5 FPT; 7 TPT=> 6 BPT for IW (109 beakers left) & 1 Lux. Treasury 12 Gold, -1 GPT

T17 - Worker #2 finishes Road/Frozen (+1 TPT=> +1 BPT). Mr. Rush Job moves onto Game (WF #11). 6 SPT w/ 18 shields towards Settler build. Food box 10 w/ 5 FPT; 8 TPT=> 7 BPT for IW (102 beakers left) & 1 Lux. Treasury 11 Gold, -1 GPT.

T18 -Worker #2 moves 2 (to WF #14). Mr. Rush Job starts roading Game/WF #11 (6 turns to complete). 6 SPT w/ 24 shields towards Settler build. Food box 15 w/ 5 FPT; 8 TPT=> 7 BPT for IW (95 beakers left) & 1 Lux. Treasury 10 Gold, -1 GPT.

T19 - City grows to size 4 with new WF on Forest (+2 shields to build). Settler built with 2 shields over. City Shrinks to size 2. WF set to 4-5, start building Granary. Worker #2 Starts Irrigating WF #14. Settler moves 2-2. Now 2 Units over free amount. Slider set to 0/10/0. 4 SPT w/ 0 shields towards Granary build. Food box 0 w/ 5 FPT; 7 TPT=> 7 BPT for IW (88 beakers left). Treasury 9 Gold, -2 GPT.

T20 - Settler builds City #2. Free Unit amount now 8 with 5 Units for free. WF set to 2 (same tile as Apolyton WF #14 - Wrk #2 is currently Irrigating it), start building EW #4. 2 SPT w/ 0 shields towards EW #4 build. Food box 0 w/ 2 FPT; 3 TPT=> 3 BPT
Apolyton - 4 SPT w/ 4 shields towards Granary build. Food box 5 w/ 5 FPT; 7 TPT=> 7 BPT
Total of 3 + 7 = 10 BPT for IW (81 beakers left). Treasury 7 Gold, +0 GPT.

At this point, we have less than 1 /2 of IW left to research with approx. 9 turns left (will be less). The site of the second city was chosen because of uncertainties in unexplored areas. The first scout will have passed through this area and the actual tiles will be know far in advance.

The first scout will have, by this time, traveled 15 tiles. Scout #2 will have traveled 9 tiles. Both would have revealed, approximately 48 tiles from FoW. It’s possible, that our first scout will have encountered someone else.

I’ll post the rest as I get it written up but this gets things started.

E_T

	18-07-2005 04:35									#75
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Here is the save, at the start of the T20 turn.

E_T

Attachment: poly_sim_#1 of the sumerians, 3050 bc.sav
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	18-07-2005 05:59									#76
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Where are you by T30, ET?

	18-07-2005 06:23									#77
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Is this about accurate for 2510, ET?

Would you advise the Consuls to follow this plan, or krill's? (see several posts above).

	18-07-2005 06:29									#78
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I prefer krill's. I like more cities.

Also, I like Modo's idea of another settler factory using the game. Let's flood the world with cities and build enks and workers in between settlers. These two granaries would be the only granaries we would ever need.

	18-07-2005 11:57									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube These two granaries would be the only granaries we would ever need.

Go wash you mouth, sinner.

	18-07-2005 16:11									#80
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Nope, whatever happens we are going to need a lot more worker pumps, and hence, granaries.

	18-07-2005 16:35									#81
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Build Queue: Worker > Enk > Enk > Enk > Granary > Enk > settler >>>>

T01, 4000: WF 5. Build > Wrkr. W1 to WF5. Slider to 100/0/0, Treas 10g, CashFlow +4, IW in ~
T02, 3950: W1 irrigate, slider 0.10.0
T03, 3900:
T04, 3850:
T05, 3800: W1 Frozen, Irrigation complete
T06, 3750: W2 built, build Enk, W2 moves 3. W1 roads
T07, 3700: W2 mines
T08, 3650: W1 frozen, road complete
T09, 3600: W1 moves 7
T10, 3550: Apolyton grows to Pop 2. Enk1 complete, Build Enk2. W1 roads. WF 4,4 Enk1 buggers off exploring. Slider 0.9.1, 5 bpt
T11, 3500: Borders expand.
T12, 3450: W1 frozen, road complete, W2 frozen, mine complete
T13, 3400: Enk2 complete, build Enk 3, W1 moves 4, W2 roads. Enk2 explores as well.
T14, 3350: Apolyton grows to Pop 3. W1 mines. WF 4,5,6, sider 0.8.2
T15, 3300: Enk3 complete, build Granary, fort Enk3 in Apolyton. W2 frozen, road finished. WF 4,5,11 slider 0.9.1
T16, 3250: W2 moves 8.
T17, 3200: W2 chops forest
T18, 3150: Poly Pop4, WF 3,4,5,11 Slider [edit by E_T]??0.8.2??[/edit]
T19, 3100: W1 frozen, mine finished
T20, 3050: W1 roads, W2 frozen, chop complete
T21, 3000: W2 roads
T22, 2950: Granary complete, build Enk4, W1 frozen
T23, 2900: Pop5, Enk4 complete, build settler, WF W1 moves 6, mines. W2 frozen, road complete, Enk4 forts, Slider 1.7.2 WF 2,4,5,6,11
T24, 2850: W2 moves 9
T25, 2800: W2 mines, WF 2,4,5,6,11,17, slider 2.6.2
T26, 2750: slider 3.5.2
T27, 2710: Settler built, WF 2,4,5,6,11 slider 4.3.3 Enk4 and settler move 99
T28, 2670: Enk4 and settler move 9, W1 frozen mine complete
T29, 2630: Poly size6, settle Mingapulco, slider 1.6.3, Ming WF 6, builds Enk6 W1 ,moves 33
T30, 2590: W1 irrigate, W2 frozen mine complete
T31, 2550: Settler complete, poly builds Enk, settler moves 22, W2 roads, Poly WF 4,5,10,11,17 Ming WF 16 Slider 6.1.3 (need to find 1 beaker to get IW one turn earlier)
T32, 2510: IW complete, Build Enk5, moves 22, Settler "Need Another Name" WF 20, Poly WF 2,4,5,11,17 build worker (or settler), Ming WF 6, build Enk6 in 1 turn. Slider 0.7.3, The Wheel in 10 @ 12 bpt, -1gpt, 7 gold in the bank.

Attachment: turn 32,.jpg
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Last edited by E_T on 23-07-2005 at 08:33

	18-07-2005 16:44									#82
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Both W1 and W2 would finish their jobs next turn, and Home is at 10 spt (it will gain 2 shields from a forst next turn to complete the worker). Ergo Home is capable of a four turn Enk/settler cycle right there, so long as you accept that the Enks are Reg. The reason that I would go Worker > Enk7 > worker > Enk8 > settler is so that we don't fall further bihind on tile improvements, like ET has done. Build up a little, then start to expand outwards again.

We could continue to spam cities all over the place, but we would nto be able to adequately defend them (even if the Enks from Home were vets)

Attachment: player of the sumerians, 2510 bc.sav
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	18-07-2005 17:08									#83
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i prefer krills plan because i agree with ljube that i prefer more cities.
also we got more tiles improved and will have the same number of workers next turn.
and i do not think we will need techs asap as it is more important for us to expand asap...

the techs will come and the chance for a leader is 1 in 20...not that much, is it?

another small plus for krills-worker-first-plan is that the others will not see our city grow to size 2, will they? so they could think we have no foodbonus though they will perhaps notice that we are agri and should therefore normaly grow within 7 turns...but we could have been using forests to build enks and rush our neighbour. so they might be a bit confused about our tactic...

	18-07-2005 20:42									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

*impressed*

We should organize weekly contests:

"Who can reach the biggest productivity 40 turns from now"

	19-07-2005 01:04									#85
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster *impressed* We should organize weekly contests: "Who can reach the biggest productivity 40 turns from now"

I did a 60 turn Sim and got thses numbers at the begining of turn 61:

6 Cities
19 Population
2 Graneries
2 Barracks
7 Workers
12 Enkidu (7 Vet)
5 Archers (all Vet)
38 GNP
23 MFG
72 PROD
Techs: IW, TW, WC, HBR, Masonry, 4 turns to CB

	19-07-2005 02:07									#86
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by BigFree I did a 60 turn Sim and got thses numbers at the begining of turn 61:

Three questions:
How much of that land do we actually know?
Why did you not Chop the friggin' Game?
Why is Umma so far away from the capital?

	19-07-2005 02:40									#87
	Increase the size of your Attachments

yeh, I would not going much beyond turn thirty, until we know all of the land within 8 tiles of Apolyton.

	19-07-2005 03:46									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Krill Nope, whatever happens we are going to need a lot more worker pumps, and hence, granaries.

Oh please Krill, workers cost maintenance.
How many workers do you have in mind?

	19-07-2005 04:26									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Three questions: How much of that land do we actually know?

You work with what you have

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Why did you not Chop the friggin' Game?

To show that growth "could be better"; I wanted to make sure that the Cap could put out 10spt at size 5 while still growing twice a turn.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Why is Umma so far away from the capital?

Like you said before, how much do we know about our land. Umma CAN use the game from that postion though.

My main goal was to try and get others to run a Sim of their own

	19-07-2005 04:34									#90
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by BigFree To show that growth "could be better"; I wanted to make sure that the Cap could put out 10spt at size 5 while still growing twice a turn.

Why have both at the same time, though? If it's being a food pump it doesn't need quite that many shields to build a 4-turn settler. Even less for a 2-turn worker.