16-07-2005 00:41									#31
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Cool, but that is still a long time after 2710 BC where, according to Krill's sim, we could have a Settler-pump along with a Settler and another soon to follow. It means three cities, one of which could (and maybe should?) start by making enough Regular Enkidus for us to feel safe. The other one would be our second Settler/Worker pump. By that count, we should easily have a useful defensive military by 2000 BC latest. Remember how cheap Enkidus are. Remember we have Enkidus, not they!

Hmm, perhaps you are right. Hmm....
I may be too vigilant for my own good. Some people may call that paranoid.

	16-07-2005 00:47									#32
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yup, you really are paranoid. And that is definately not a bad thing.

---

Before I commence on the War sim, let me remind people of something else.

Only one of our opponents are industrious, and their archer costs 30 shields. Not even one of the other civs are militeristic, and so have to spend 40 shields on a barracks, and then they have to research WC right off the bat to get the archers asap.

	16-07-2005 00:52									#33
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damnit, it is going to be a pain to sim this out. The Sim that ET made does not have to correct tech rate, due to the reduced numbers of civs in the game...

	16-07-2005 01:00									#34
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Are you trying to sim an ultra early archer rush by us? In that case you can forego granaries and mine that cow instead of irrigating it.

Also start with warrior code.

	16-07-2005 01:03									#35
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Nope, I'm planning another civ archer rushing us. To do that, as none of the civs are militeristic, I need the tech rate to be an exact replica of this game, and to research WC. Also, The civ that I have chosen is the Iroquois, so that any extra towns founded will be as productive as possible.

Always look at the worst case scenario.

	16-07-2005 01:06									#36
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This is excellent analysis and very needed. If your plan passes this, I believe we should adopt it.


Modo had me almost convinced based on a general feeling, but if you can prove it by your sim, then we're safe to proceed your way.

	16-07-2005 01:17									#37
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Unfortunatly, I will have to sim the archer rush opening using our start, thus I will be assuming that the starts are identical. They don't have to be, but over, say, 40 turns, any differneces will be negligable.

	16-07-2005 02:00									#38
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32 turns, and that does not include time taken for al of the archers to reach the target.

I got 5 archers, and one vet warrior to act as a guard.

To do this I built only a barracks in tha capital, and I bult one settler, otherwise that civ would be forced to do 50 turn reseach to cover the unit support costs. I'm certain that civ could get more archers quicker, but they would be crippled for the rest of the game. And that is a certainty.

Build queue was Worker, W, W, Barracks, Archer, Archer, Archer, settler, Archer, Warrior, Archer. To find the target civ, both warriors would have to explore, thus leaving the homeland open to attack be anything, including barbs.

Here is a .rar containing all of the saves

	16-07-2005 02:40									#39
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Krill damnit, it is going to be a pain to sim this out. The Sim that ET made does not have to correct tech rate, due to the reduced numbers of civs in the game...

Yes it does, IW is 180 beakers (for Emporer Difficulty with Standard Map), basic cost for the first person to research it. I checked that very thing, to make sure that I was on the right difficulty before continouing (I had to retry several times to get it right). It's correct

IW = 180 beakers -> Sim shows 45 turns @ 4 BPT -> 45*4=180 -> Correct
CB = 60 beakers -> Sim shows 15 turns @ 4 BPT -> 15*4=60 -> Correct
WC = 90 beakers -> Sim shows 23 turns @ 4 BPT -> 23*4=92 (just above 90, 30 turns at 3 is 90) -> Correct
Wheel = Masonry = 120 beakers -> Sim shows 30 turns @ 4 BPT for both -> 30*4=120 -> Both Correct
Alphabet = 150 beakers -> Sim shows 38 turns @ 4 BPT -> 38*4=152 -> Correct

So, nothing wrong with the tech rates.

The only time your number of civs counts in the tech cost, is IF you have contact with them AND IF they already have that tech. Then, the number of civs (and how many of them have that tech) will modify that amount. But no matter if 2 or 16, your BASE tech cost will ALWAYS be the same, only dependant on Mapsize & difficulty.

If your sim shows something else, then it too is not correct.

E_T

	16-07-2005 03:26									#40
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by BigFree I think if you load the game under "Multiplayer" and choose "load game" and then choose "turn based" you get the same results a if it were a PBEM. This way you don't have to save every turn and can just hit "end turn", wait for the AI to do their turn, then go ahead with your next turn. give it a try.

Tryed it, didn't work

I did this sequence:
1) double clicked Multipayer
2) double clicked PBEM
3) made sure that selection is set for 'turn based'
4) loaded savefile
5) Launch

after turn done, I hit EOT and the savegame window pop'ed up.

Oh well...

E_T

	16-07-2005 04:34									#41
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Nevermind, the tech rate is FUBAR in my biq/save/whatever.

Back to the drawing board.

Last edited by notyoueither on 16-07-2005 at 04:55

	16-07-2005 04:38									#42
	Inflate your Upload Space

Here is the key for the WF#

	16-07-2005 04:47									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

NYE, where did you settle the second city? 98 of Apolyton?

	16-07-2005 04:49									#44
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Yep. I stalled a turn though to simulate moving out farther.

	16-07-2005 04:50									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by E_T Yes it does, IW is 180 beakers (for Emporer Difficulty with Standard Map), basic cost for the first person to research it. I checked that very thing, to make sure that I was on the right difficulty before continouing (I had to retry several times to get it right). It's correct IW = 180 beakers -> Sim shows 45 turns @ 4 BPT -> 45*4=180 -> Correct

Woops. A scenario with 6 players, standard map, Emp is showing IW in 36.

What's gone on?

	16-07-2005 04:57									#46
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I have no idea how it went wrong, but if you try to use max tax instead of science, you will know when you pass the amount gold that is required to research a particular tech (IE when you hit 180 gold in the bank, IW should have been researched).

	16-07-2005 04:59									#47
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Nye, use mine, Save posted this thread, .biq file in Sim Central thread. Make sure, if using .biq, that you set the difficulty before loading the senario

E_T

	16-07-2005 05:50									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by E_T Tryed it, didn't work I did this sequence: 1) double clicked Multipayer 2) double clicked PBEM 3) made sure that selection is set for 'turn based' 4) loaded savefile 5) Launch after turn done, I hit EOT and the savegame window pop'ed up. Oh well... E_T

Do this:
1) Select "Multiplayer"
2) Select "Local Area Network (LAN)"
3) Click "Host"
4) Set "Game Mode" to "Load Game"
5) Pick correct save to load. I used one of Krill's; the 3700 BC one.
6) Set "Game Type" to "Turn Based"
7) Set "Turn Timer" to "None"
8) Check the "Ready" box
9) Click on "Launch"

This will give you a game that is the same as a PBEM except instead of other humans, the AI is working the other Civs and each turn does not end with you having to save the turn.

	16-07-2005 06:09									#49
	Remove this text

Problem with that is, if I make a mistake, it's hard to to back.

Or if I want to take a different path, at a point in time, too.

E_T

	16-07-2005 06:16									#50
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by E_T Problem with that is, if I make a mistake, it's hard to to back. Or if I want to take a different path, at a point in time, too. E_T

You can save each turn before you "End Turn" so that you could go back and take different actions (CTRL S). You could even save multiple turns of the same year by giving them different names like "3450 BC build settler next" or "3450 BC build worker next" or what ever you like.

Now, when you want to load up a different save just follow the same process as before. It allows you to work much more quickly through a series of turns.

	16-07-2005 06:35									#51
	Support Apolyton

T01, 4000: WF 5. Build > Wrkr. W1 to WF5. Slider to 100/0/0, Treas 10g, CashFlow +4, IW in ~
T02, 3950: W1 irr & rd WF5. Slider to 0/100/0, Treas 14g, CashFlow 0, IW in 45
T03, 3900:
T04, 3850:
T05, 3800:
T06, 3750: Wrkr > Enk. Pop is 2 > 1. W2 to WF4
T07, 3700: W2 mine & rd WF4
T08, 3650: W1 irr & rd WF5 complete
T09, 3600: W1 to WF6
T10, 3550: Enk > Enk. Pop is 2, WF 4, 5. W1 rd WF6. IW in 25
T11, 3500: Borders expand. WF 5, 11
T12, 3450: W1 rd WF6 complete
T13, 3400: Enk > Enk. W1 to WF 17
T14, 3350: Pop is 3. WF 4, 5, 11. W1 mine & rd WF17. Slider to 0/90/10, IW in 21
T15, 3300: Enk > Granery. W2 mine & rd WF4 complete. Treas 14g, CashFlow -1, IW in 17
T16, 3250: W2 to WF2
T17, 3200: W2 chop WF2
T18, 3150: Pop is 4. WF 4, 5, 11, 17. Slider to 0/80/20, Treas 11, CashFlow -1, IW in 16
T19, 3100:
T20, 3050: WF 3, 4, 5, 11. W2 chop WF2 complete. Granery in 2. IW in 12
T21, 3000: WF 4, 5, 6, 11. W2 road WF2. IW in 10
T22, 2950: Granery > Enk. WF 4, 5, 11, 17. W1 mine & rd WF17 complete. CashFlow -2, IW in 10
T23, 2900: Enk > Settler. Pop is 5. WF 2, 4, 5, 6, 17. Enk stays in Apolyton, W1 to WF6 & mine, W2 rd WF2 complete. Slider to 0/80/20, CashFlow -3, IW in 6
T24, 2850: W2 to WF10. Slider to 20/60/20, Treas 2g, CashFlow 0, IW in 7
T25, 2800: Pop is 6, WF 2, 4, 5, 6, 11, 17. W2 mine & rd WF9. Slider to 30/50/20, CashFlow 0, IW in 6 ***
T26, 2750:
T27, 2710: Settler > Barracks. Pop is 7 > 5, WF 3, 4, 5, 11, 17. Enk-Settler move out to Poly 9-9-9(?). Slider to 40/30/30, CashFlow 0, IW in 10
T28, 2670: WF 3, 4, 5, 6, 17. Enk-Settler moving, W1 mine WF6 complete. Slider to 30/40/40, CashFlow 0, IW in 7
T29, 2630: W1 to WF2 & mine*, Settle city 2, 9-9-9 of Apolyton. Slider to 10/60/30, CashFlow 0, IW in 3
T30, 2590:.Pop is 6, WF 2, 3, 4, 6, 11, 17, 12 beakers to IW, Slider to 30/40/30, Treas 2g, CashFlow +3, IW in 2
T31, 2550: Barracks > Enk. CashFlow 2, IW in 1
T32, 2510: Vet Enk > Settler. Iron Working > TheWheel. Slider to 20/50/30, Treas 7, CashFlow +1, TW in 15
T33, 2470: W2 mine & rd WF10 complete
T34, 2430: WF 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 17. W1 mine WF2 complete, W2 > city 2
T35, 2390: Settler > Enk. Pop is 7 > 5, WF 4, 5, 10, 11, 17. Enk-Settler move off, W1 > ???. Slider to 10/70/20, Treas 10g, CashFlow -1, TW in 9
Now doing 4 turn Enk-Settler or 2 turn Enk-Worker

	16-07-2005 06:36									#52
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I posted this in Sim Thread, but mostly pertainant here, so

quote: I'm looking at my first city (in my 3EW-Wrk-Set-Gran-Settler Pump Plan) to be at 2-2. Built turn after settler built, fist build is a EW that goes back (same turn) to Poly for 2nd Garrison duty. Likey, my 3rd city would be on the river, to the NE(8-8-9). I would have that area fully scouted and maybe also have contact with sother Civ by this time, too. Currently, IW looking like turn 28 (turn 27, if I can just find 3 more beakers....), with 7 gold in Treasury (or 17 gold, if I can' get those last 3 beakers). Haven't looked much beyond that yet. E_T

This can also be modified, with a barracks built after one of the settlers from the pump come out. I'm running at a 3 to 5 pump, with 2 turns of 0% Lux and 2 turns of 10% lux. That leaves more tiles for other cities to use, atleast to start out. The barracks build would allow it to regrow back to the size that nye has it, for the EW/Settler Pump.

First Scout out on turn 6 (headed South and west). First Garrison on turn 10. Second Scout (will check out surrounding area for Luxes, city sites, Huts) out on turn 12. Worker #2 out on turn 14. First settler out on turn 19, with him building at 8-8, will found city on turn 20. First EW from New city on turn 25 (immediately moves to Poly for 2nd Garrison - Luxes back to 0% fhor a short bit.). Granary built (without a chop, chop only saves 1 turn - saving them for Markets) on turn 29 (1 turn after IW) with Settlers every 4 turns afterwards.

Wheel estimated on turn 38, likely, with 19 gold in treasury (can't get that sooner, unless I can get IW sooner....) , because of low estimates for 3rd city trade.

If anything, with the lower pop for the pump, atleast to start off, we use less overall Luxes (Which balances out the trade from the higher pop) until the workers get other stuff going.

But by the time we have IW, our first scout would have traveled 22 tiles, very likely having already found someone else. By wheel, 32 tiles, possibly finding a 3rd civ.

E_T

	16-07-2005 06:41									#53
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: (Which balances out the trade from the higher pop

Sorry, but as we are on a river, and will be working roaded river tiles, we should be bringing in more gold with a larger pop base, as each labourer earns 2 gpt, and only half of that is required to make the citiezin happy.

BTW, ET, do you have a screenshot or a save of the terrain from about turn 30? Or better yet turn 26?

	16-07-2005 06:45									#54
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How do you get tech faster with fewer workers building roads, and lower pop?

Can you illustrate this?

	16-07-2005 06:53									#55
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So, NYE, you slowed growth when at size 4, so that the granary completed before growth?

And:

quote: T25, 2800: Pop is 6, WF 2, 4, 5, 6, 11, 17. W2 mine & rd WF9. Slider to 30/50/20, CashFlow 0, IW in 6 *** T26, 2750: T31, 2550: Barracks > Enk. CashFlow 2, IW in 1 T32, 2510: Vet Enk > Settler. Iron Working > TheWheel. Slider to 20/50/30, Treas 7, CashFlow +1, TW in 15 T33, 2470: W2 mine & rd WF10 complete T34, 2430: WF 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 17. W1 mine WF2 complete, W2 > city 2 T35, 2390: Settler > Enk. Pop is 7 > 5, WF 4, 5, 10, 11, 17. Enk-Settler move off, W1 > ???. Slider to 10/70/20, Treas 10g, CashFlow -1, TW in 9

what about going Barracks > Enk > worker > Settler? How would that affect growth?

	16-07-2005 07:05									#56
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither How do you get tech faster with fewer workers building roads, and lower pop? Can you illustrate this?

Because I'm GOOD.....

I use much less Lux slider, which goes more into the research. I has also built the second city much sooner, which, gets 3 trade plus the Unit support, thereby, more gold for research.

I'll Try to post detailed specifics, but I'll also be leaving very soon.

* E_T is going to get the New Harry Potter Book, at 40% off, he's already has a ticket that gets him #81 in line.....

E_T

	16-07-2005 07:24									#57
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Harry Potter before Civ?!?! OMG!!

Have fun E_T. We all need to escape every once in a while.

	16-07-2005 07:25									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

BTW, did anyone else get like 12 emails from Apolyton about nye's post here in this thread? Looks like a fluke incident nevertheless.... :hmm:

	16-07-2005 07:27									#59
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yep, I did as well.

	16-07-2005 07:33									#60
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Krill So, NYE, you slowed growth when at size 4, so that the granary completed before growth? And: quote: T25, 2800: Pop is 6, WF 2, 4, 5, 6, 11, 17. W2 mine & rd WF9. Slider to 30/50/20, CashFlow 0, IW in 6 *** T26, 2750: T31, 2550: Barracks > Enk. CashFlow 2, IW in 1 T32, 2510: Vet Enk > Settler. Iron Working > TheWheel. Slider to 20/50/30, Treas 7, CashFlow +1, TW in 15 T33, 2470: W2 mine & rd WF10 complete T34, 2430: WF 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 17. W1 mine WF2 complete, W2 > city 2 T35, 2390: Settler > Enk. Pop is 7 > 5, WF 4, 5, 10, 11, 17. Enk-Settler move off, W1 > ???. Slider to 10/70/20, Treas 10g, CashFlow -1, TW in 9 what about going Barracks > Enk > worker > Settler? How would that affect growth?

Yes, I slowed before completing the granery.

I'm not settled on anything after the granery. I think it could be done better.