13-08-2005 03:29									#92
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I seen a pair a ducks once.

	13-08-2005 03:30									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander What's wrong with using a little intelligent design when building science classrooms? That way every student would have access to a bunsen burner, a sink and will have an unobstructed view of the projection scree.

Touche!

Gatekeeper

	13-08-2005 05:28									#94
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Most average joes who reject evolution either don't understand it, fell for the "it's just a theory" nonsense, and/or because they are religiously unable to come to grips with the philosphical implications of Darwinian evolution (that it, that there is no great metaphysical Meaning of Life; and that humans are just one species among millions, not the crown of Creation).

BTW: It's nice to see Sava back.

	13-08-2005 06:32									#95
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The place where I see creationism discussed the most is on 'poly.

	13-08-2005 12:23									#96
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I believe all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration.
That we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively.
There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream
and we are the imagination of ourselves.

But I certainly don't believe in creationism. That's just whacko

	13-08-2005 13:13									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer "45% of Americans are Morons " I'd like to proudly state that I'm in the other 65%.

Hey Lancer, I feel sorry for you....

....the number of people who would rather assume you have no maths ability and/or are a moron instead of appreciate your humour is scary. Quite a haul.

	13-08-2005 13:33									#98
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creation or evolution

we are all the same happy go lucky family


Another good read:

"The Anthropic Cosmological Principle"

design before function or function before design

	13-08-2005 16:02									#99
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro At least 45 % of the UK's people are British. You can't doubt that.

Damn- where are they hiding them ?

In the centre all we have are Scandopop backpackers, factory sample Japanese coach tours, Aussie barmen and waiters and Americans looking to see if they have aristocratic roots.

Oh, and the occasional nervous Brazilian.

	13-08-2005 19:22									#100
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My issue with pure science is that the approach to facts is with priori concepts.

For example - if the answer to faith and mystical experience was made a serious study, with experimentation. Why not take the lab coat boys up to the top of the Himalayan mountains and conduct a serious study.

Instead the trend is to grab some 900# tarot card reader or spoon bender as serious candidate for this type of 'research'.

In my experience this is the approach to all things spiritual by a great deal of the scientific community. So do I trust the scientists and all of their conclusions?
No, not completely, not about anything that is still hypothesis.

	13-08-2005 19:25									#101
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B/c scientists don't concern themselves with "spirituality" in their line of work. It's hard to quantify faith, y'know?

	13-08-2005 20:15									#102
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Damn- where are they hiding them ?

I found proof that they are residing in little special houses, like this one.....additionally this guy is hiding behind one of those giant hats.....

	13-08-2005 22:02									#103
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Having spent the last 20 years in West Virginia and Kentucky, I fear I must concur with the survey. Here the numbers that support creationism are higher than 45%. They taught fundamentalist Bible in the public school system in Bluefield, West Virginia. The Junior HS required you to send a note to keep you kid OUT of it (they stopped the note bit after we had a little confrontation, and I asked sweetly "can you spell A-C-L-U." - well, maybe not so nicely ) Note, this was in the eighties. That's also when I discovered that Catholics weren't Christians...

However, Scientific ignorance is not the sole purview of the religious right. In the 70's I remember reading a poll where they stated that 65% of the respondents stated that they believed a Nuclear Power Plant could explode, as in like a Nuclear bomb (versus meltdown). There has only been one reactor in the US capable of that (a military one), and it was mothballed decades ago. But everybody at the time knew that Nukes were teh evil.

Ask Europeans about the risk of Genetically Modified Foods, and you will get a bunch of similar moronic responses. For example, one strain of corn has the genes for BT spliced into it. You and I can eat BT (it's a bacteria that gives caterpillars the flu, essentially) and have absolutely no effect. You can spray it onto corn directly before harvesting, and there are no restrictions on it (unlike with many insecticides). They had to fight for YEARS to get the EU to permit corn imports with the BT gene spliced into it. Look at the response of many Europeans to "Frankenfoods." Stupid, emotional responses to science fact are distressingly common.

	13-08-2005 22:11									#104
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Its been my experience as a scientist that for the 'common man' science and religion are the same things, i.e. belief systems. The condescending attitude by some poly-posters toward the funde's for their misguided but genuine beliefs is a symptom of those posters own ignorance.

	13-08-2005 22:39									#105
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SpencerH - is the condescending attitude due to the misguided but genuine beliefs, or the fact that the individual is willing to deny all facts, and refuses to listen to anything that differs with their "beliefs". And then these same people attempt to pass laws ignoring the reality and attempting to impose those beliefs...

	13-08-2005 22:45									#106
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no

what he is saying is that the common man doesn't know enough to know that they are facts...

as such is in many cases not refusing to listen to something, but just doesn't know, and doesn't want to put in the work to find out

and in a democracy the common man will have some power..

Jon Miller

	13-08-2005 22:48									#107
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quote: Originally posted by beingofone For example - if the answer to faith and mystical experience was made a serious study, with experimentation. Why not take the lab coat boys up to the top of the Himalayan mountains and conduct a serious study.

Please explain how such a study could be done "seriously." Of course, by "seriously," I'm assuming you meant "through the scientific method," as that is the only way science can work.

Attempts to verify mysticism as fact have been around a lot longer than scientific methodology. Yet the attempts have always failed to prove the case. So saying that people are giving short thrift to mysticism is, IMO, pretty unsubstantiated.

Of course, with creation vs. evolution, that's not even remotely the issue, as creationism (in the sense of of the earth being created 6-10K years ago, Adam & Eve, etc.) isn't just unproven, it's been thoroughly disproven by almost every means at our disposal. One cannot rationally hold the belief that the Biblical Genesis account is literally true in the face of what real scientific investigation has proven.

Willful ignorance is little different from stupidity, IMO.

	13-08-2005 22:49									#108
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First thing - you weren't the poly-poster I was refering to. I was just trying to be less confrontational than normal.

quote: 45% of Americans are Morons According to ABC 45% of Americans believe in Creationism and that God created man 10,000 years ago... If true I find that statistic simply staggering for a modern western country in the 21st century! But at least 55% of Americans are smart enough to know the truth. Does anyone on Poly believe in Creationism, go on you can admit it - we won't laugh at you, much...

I would call that condescending, wouldnt you?

	13-08-2005 22:50									#109
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Ask Europeans about the risk of Genetically Modified Foods, and you will get a bunch of similar moronic responses. For example, one strain of corn has the genes for BT spliced into it. You and I can eat BT (it's a bacteria that gives caterpillars the flu, essentially) and have absolutely no effect. You can spray it onto corn directly before harvesting, and there are no restrictions on it (unlike with many insecticides). They had to fight for YEARS to get the EU to permit corn imports with the BT gene spliced into it. Look at the response of many Europeans to "Frankenfoods." Stupid, emotional responses to science fact are distressingly common.

Not to disagree, but the thing re: GM food imports is a lot to do with protectionism of agriculture. Seeing the size of the EU budget spent on subsidies its not hard to see why the EU lawmakers and politicians would drag their feet and prevent US foods coming into the market place for as long as possible. The non-existant public health issue was still a good excuse to pander too and deliberately play up.

	13-08-2005 22:54									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Please explain how such a study could be done "seriously." Of course, by "seriously," I'm assuming you meant "through the scientific method," as that is the only way science can work. Attempts to verify mysticism as fact have been around a lot longer than scientific methodology. Yet the attempts have always failed to prove the case. So saying that people are giving short thrift to mysticism is, IMO, pretty unsubstantiated. Of course, with creation vs. evolution, that's not even remotely the issue, as creationism (in the sense of of the earth being created 6-10K years ago, Adam & Eve, etc.) isn't just unproven, it's been thoroughly disproven by almost every means at our disposal. One cannot rationally hold the belief that the Biblical Genesis account is literally true in the face of what real scientific investigation has proven. Willful ignorance is little different from stupidity, IMO.

umm, scientifically there is no way to disprove the idea that the world was created 6 days ago and we all have implanted memories, etc...

now most don't think that is very likely, but it isn't disproven (in fact, science can't even say that there is evidence against it)

now many creationists have certain views of things and many/most of those have been disproven

Jon Miller

	13-08-2005 23:16									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Not to disagree, but the thing re: GM food imports is a lot to do with protectionism of agriculture. Seeing the size of the EU budget spent on subsidies its not hard to see why the EU lawmakers and politicians would drag their feet and prevent US foods coming into the market place for as long as possible. The non-existant public health issue was still a good excuse to pander too and deliberately play up.

Definitely sounds like the best reasoning for the whole fuss over GM foods.

	13-08-2005 23:23									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller umm, scientifically there is no way to disprove the idea that the world was created 6 days ago and we all have implanted memories, etc... now most don't think that is very likely, but it isn't disproven (in fact, science can't even say that there is evidence against it) now many creationists have certain views of things and many/most of those have been disproven Jon Miller

This is, of course, a bunch of hooey, because as a caveat to science, it's always provisional. Solipsism, while logically internally consistent, is not rational. And those who deny science when it comes to how the universe/earth came into being are perfectly willing to accept it in most other cases, so they're willful ignorance is not even consistent.

	13-08-2005 23:27									#113
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc However, Scientific ignorance is not the sole purview of the religious right. In the 70's I remember reading a poll where they stated that 65% of the respondents stated that they believed a Nuclear Power Plant could explode, as in like a Nuclear bomb (versus meltdown). There has only been one reactor in the US capable of that (a military one), and it was mothballed decades ago. But everybody at the time knew that Nukes were teh evil. Ask Europeans about the risk of Genetically Modified Foods, and you will get a bunch of similar moronic responses. For example, one strain of corn has the genes for BT spliced into it. You and I can eat BT (it's a bacteria that gives caterpillars the flu, essentially) and have absolutely no effect. You can spray it onto corn directly before harvesting, and there are no restrictions on it (unlike with many insecticides). They had to fight for YEARS to get the EU to permit corn imports with the BT gene spliced into it. Look at the response of many Europeans to "Frankenfoods." Stupid, emotional responses to science fact are distressingly common.

Sickening, isn't it. I get the feeling that most of the anti-GMO people are the Eco-Luddite-New Age Hippies who use Relativist and Post-Modernist "philosophy" to "prove" that all modern science and technology are a capitalist conspiracy to rape the 3rd World. GMOs will actually HELP the enviroment because farmers will not have to spray as much pesticides.

	13-08-2005 23:34									#114
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH First thing - you weren't the poly-poster I was refering to. I was just trying to be less confrontational than normal. I would call that condescending, wouldnt you?

Of course it's condescending...

Seriously, you have to be either incredibly stupid or utterly misguided to believe the whole claptrap about the world being less than 10,000 years old and the fact that god created it in six days - how totally ludicrous can you get!!?

(But at least I generally hold my tongue about people believing in God/Gods etc - people are perfectly entitled to be misguided and waste their time believing in that sort of crap as long as they don't impinge on my life.)

	14-08-2005 00:29									#115
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quote: I get the feeling that most of the anti-GMO people are the Eco-Luddite-New Age Hippies who use Relativist and Post-Modernist "philosophy" to "prove" that all modern science and technology are a capitalist conspiracy to rape the 3rd World.

It's absolutely amazing how you turn a post against GMO people into a rant against relativism and post-modernism. I'm still not sure how you connected the two in your brain, and I wonder if you are.

Though I'd imagine plenty of "Eco-Luddite-New Age Hippies" blame modern technology and science on Relativist and Post-Modernist philopshy which says it is ok to rape the Earth under the capitalist moral philosophy.

	14-08-2005 00:41									#116
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SpencerH - nobody had posted in about two hours, and then you posted right after me. I took the context to imply that you were responding directly. Apologies.

	14-08-2005 01:00									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I get the feeling that most of the anti-GMO people are the Eco-Luddite-New Age Hippies who use Relativist and Post-Modernist "philosophy" to "prove" that all modern science and technology are a capitalist conspiracy to rape the 3rd World. It's absolutely amazing how you turn a post against GMO people into a rant against relativism and post-modernism. I'm still not sure how you connected the two in your brain, and I wonder if you are. Though I'd imagine plenty of "Eco-Luddite-New Age Hippies" blame modern technology and science on Relativist and Post-Modernist philopshy which says it is ok to rape the Earth under the capitalist moral philosophy.

Huh? I could of swore I rember reading about a school of post-modernist thought that said that Science is "just another belief system."

	14-08-2005 01:22									#118
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I would call that condescending, wouldnt you?

What's wrong with condescending to people significantly beneath you?

	14-08-2005 01:44									#119
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc SpencerH - nobody had posted in about two hours, and then you posted right after me. I took the context to imply that you were responding directly. Apologies.

de nada

Mine was badly worded since it was without reference.

	14-08-2005 01:55									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov This is, of course, a bunch of hooey, because as a caveat to science, it's always provisional. Solipsism, while logically internally consistent, is not rational. And those who deny science when it comes to how the universe/earth came into being are perfectly willing to accept it in most other cases, so they're willful ignorance is not even consistent.

there is no greater beleif required to beleive what I said above, then to beleive in a Christian style God...

now I know that a lot of people have a hard time beleiving in God (or gods)

but the majority of people do..

JM