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Rogan Josh
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
Yea, I bet he is really thankful that a hack named Marx created a bogus system of predicting history, which was used by ruthless psuedo-intellectuals to seize power in agrarian mostly illiterate states,...
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That would have happened under any other economic/political system too. In fact, without this Hilter might have been even more of a problem.
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Tell me Rogan, where is the historical record of unbridled capitalism that can claim even a fraction of the misery caused by those who called themselves communists?
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You're kidding right? Unbridled capitalism is just as bad as unbridled communism. Just look at South America, and the deplorable inequalities of wealth and poverty. Or perhaps one should look at what a 'capitalist' country did to Cambodia and Laos. And I wouldn't even call the US a capitalist country - it has a mixed economy too, although more to the capitalist side. Even the libertarians aren't true capitalists (although they are close enough to be dangerous!).
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Most people call the atrocity perpetuated upon Russia and it's sphere of influence communism, and most people call the economic system of the west capitalism. Since there has never been an example of 'good' communism AFAIK, the term should rightfully be applied to the millions of people who called themselves communists and the states which they created and ran into the ground.
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This is the heart of my complaint. One should not sully the label 'communism' with the regime in the old USSR - they were not true communists. Have you ever read any of the Culture books by Ian Banks? That would be a true communist society.
For the record, I do not believe that a command economy (or communism) is appropriate at our stage of development. State moderated capitalism works much better (because people are well motivated by greed). But I would not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Communism is a great idea, and I, for one, hope that mankind will one day reach a level of development where a democratic communist society will work.
Unfortunately it seems that some people are so close minded as to object to an economic system because of its past associations, rather than develop a balanced view based on its advantages and disadvantages.
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Gozer
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Spaghetti
Oct 1999
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh
I wouldn't even call the US a capitalist country - it has a mixed economy too, although more to the capitalist side. Even the libertarians aren't true capitalists (although they are close enough to be dangerous!).
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You are correct. Pure capitalism leads to huge economic disparities which inevitably leads to unrest. I'll glady pay taxes and endure the much-lambasted-but-mostly-rare
welfare cheats in order to have a stable government.
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This is the heart of my complaint. One should not sully the label 'communism' with the regime in the old USSR - they were not true communists |
There is no such thing as a "true communist" or a "true capitalist". We are all individuals with mixed opinions on how the world should work. If communism requires "true communists" to work, it will never be achievable.
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Have you ever read any of the Culture books by Ian Banks? That would be a true communist society. |
I don't put much faith in books as the way towards some utopian path. The real world invariably comes up with situations not covered in the one's "bible."
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Communism is a great idea |
No, Communism is a great ideal, but like all ideals it is unachievable. Libertarism, Capitalism and even Fundamentalism are also ideals that work great in theory but always run up against some road block in the real world. As you noted, a mixture of all seems to work best. "Moderation in all things" - some old Greek.
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Unfortunately it seems that some people are so close minded as to object to an economic system because of its past associations, rather than develop a balanced view based on its advantages and disadvantages. |
People react mostly to names: Communism, Capitalism, Nazism. Ideals are universal. Most Americans, for instance, will say they are against "socialized medicine" but ask them instead if they are for "universal health care" and you will likely get a different answer.
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LaRusso
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appendix of Europe
May 2001
time: 06:15
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 09-10-2001 18:36
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#70
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Fellow E. Europeans - let's show our gratitude to the west by posting "than
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Suffering from ads?
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quote:
Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
yeah right.
It was 150000 first, and they were organised. |
They must be breeding fast in wartime, then
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How else do you explain the fact that 150000 fled in 4 days, with almost no resistance adn with all their belongings pacekd  going away with cars and tractors. |
Your army's reputation preceded their advances.
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(quite different from 400000 Croats who fled that same area 4 years before with many who were leaving with all their belonging in carrier bags) . |
own misery is always bigger than other's
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Btw, i think we will prove in Hague that 'krajina' leaders organised this to get Serbia in an open war with Croatia, which thankfully Milosevic did not start (at least something smart from him). Even though all those peole left. |
it is up to the 'court' to decide. let me remind you that moderate serbian leaders in krajina were shun by both croatian and serbian leadership (raskovic et al.)
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And our president i wouldn't call fascist but a rather corrup dictator (who had some crazy ides too but mainly about Bosnia). |
let me quote one of his 'corrupt' outbursts:
" I am glad my wife is not a Serb or a Jew" ( I dare you to find a comparable statement made by Milosevic, or ANY head of state in Europe)
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I guess that 300000 Serbs who did not join the 'krajina' ones and continue to live freely in Croatia don't have much to complain about (nor did they in the midst of war) |
true. some of them are dead (like zec family). you honestly think that croatia is a better place for minorities than any of its neighbours?
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And we almost got a economic blocade from the west for the former president's policies in Bosnia, which is fair too. ) |
hm. serbs get full sanctions for paramilitary assistance and funding, croatia 'amost' gets them for their REGULAR army troops fighting in Bosnia
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Fortunatley he was smart enough not to support Bosinan Coats to the same extent as Serbia did Bosnian Serbs, and we avoided this. And he was willing to accept the western proposals much more than Milosevic was. At least the west tried to make some order in that part ot the world and I AM THANKFULL TO THEM FOR THAT. If there was no itntervention I can bet that we would still be fighting in Bosnia today. |
you can thank cancer for finally ending his reign. otherwise, he would still be the president and his family would still steal millions from ordinary people, while instigating xenophobia, ethnic hatred and petty balkan nationalism. tudjman and slobo are two of a kind, it is just that the former quickly sided with germany and proved, to that extent, a bit shrewder.
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Gozer
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Spaghetti
Oct 1999
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh
You misunderstand me - the Culture books are not my 'bible'. |
'Bible' was perhaps too strong a word. I know the kind of book you mean. "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress" is Heinlein book with a future Libertarian ideal. Even Star Trek provides a utopian view of man's future.
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They are not even serious books on economics, or utopia - they are sci-fi books set in the future where mankind has become so good at making things that everyone has everything they ever want, and in consequence capitalism is dead, and money has no use. |
Indeed. Capitalism is based on the assumption that man always wants more. It is said that after conquering the known world, Alexander The Great wept because there were no more worlds to conquer. Whether that's true or not, we can all empathize with Alexander's situation.
Do we truly have within us the wisdom to accept what we have and want no more? I dunno. Look at any two-year old child and you will see man's innate need to possess and control the world around him. Socialization and defered gratification must be taught - they are not inborn.
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I really don't believe that Americans are that stupid. I think you are being a little bit unfair to them. |
Don't overestimate us, or mankind in general. A few years back, one group of Americans was asked if they supported the Bill of Rights. All said yes. Another group was read just the text of the Bill of Rights and likewise asked if they supported what the language said. The support was far from unanimous.
Similarly, if you ask most Americans if they think Congress is a bunch of self-serving idiots beholden to special interest groups - they'll say yes. If instead you ask them what they think of their congressman, especially one they voted for, they'll say that [s]he is the exception to that rule, a decent person afterall.
Again it's words and labels that people react too. OBL will gain a lot more followers if he claims we are anti-Islam than if tells the truth - which is we have no opinion on Islam one way or the other.
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OneFootInTheGrave
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Kuzelj
Nov 2000
time: 05:15
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09-10-2001 19:23
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#76
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fellow E. Europeans - let's show our gratitude to the west by posting "
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Got spare money?
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Just for the first two comments I obviously disagree, and for the third one, nobody seems to remember that this happened before. And in the 400000 i should have put Croats and others living in that area.
quote:
Originally posted by LaRusso
let me quote one of his 'corrupt' outbursts:
" I am glad my wife is not a Serb or a Jew" ( I dare you to find a comparable statement made by Milosevic, or ANY head of state in Europe)
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I haven't heard this yet(obviously) but i could expect something like this from him.
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true. some of them are dead (like zec family). you honestly think that croatia is a better place for minorities than any of its neighbours?
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I cannot exclude that there was no cases of people being killed on that basis, but that is the reason why croatian soldiers and generals are going to Hague for the crimes they commited. I have not heard of the 'family Zec' case, nor when it happened, and whoever commited the crime should go to court and be dealt with. Well in the US now there were loonies who killed muslims now out of hate too. So I guess that can happen. But i think it overall stays that Serbs who stayed did not have any problems. like if they were abused by the system and similar. (i guess the same goes for the croats in Serbia, at least i haven't heard anything) I myself know many of them from my own city who are all right and have no problem whatsoever and are friends of my family as they used to be, they have their jobs live the life like everyone else etc...
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hm. serbs get full sanctions for paramilitary assistance and funding, croatia 'amost' gets them for their REGULAR army troops fighting in Bosnia
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You wouldn't call using the JNA arsenal and artillery open assistance,a nd first hand advantage? As for the regular Croatian army, well they did contiunue their march after 'oluja' to free Bosinan parts, and they were on an offensive actually with Muslims and Bosnian Croats. However this was to push the Serbs (who up to than controlled around 75% and more of territory) to their pre-agreed 49%. that is the reason USA gave us the green light. Actually in that action Croats and Muslims got more than 51% but they withdrew weeks later to comply with the agreement, and Croatian regular troops left than. So i guess they didn't punish us because of that (there was no way that Bosnian serbs would just withdraw to comply as this was already tried before). But if we continued to conquer there we would definitley get the embargo,and who knows what else?
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you can thank cancer for finally ending his reign. otherwise, he would still be the president and his family would still steal millions from ordinary people, while instigating xenophobia, ethnic hatred and petty balkan nationalism. tudjman and slobo are two of a kind, it is just that the former quickly sided with germany and proved, to that extent, a bit shrewder. |
I definitley agree with the cancer. It is a bit sad that but it is true and some nationalistic morons in my county would kill me for this comment. But we were luckier to have an older dictator with a cancer as opposed to you. It was God's gift for the new millenium. On Jan 2. 2000 we got a new president. It is not easy now, but with time we will rebuild, and i am actually thinking to move back now too. But i have to wait for my wife to finish studying before.
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OneFootInTheGrave
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Kuzelj
Nov 2000
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalgetti
Gozer:
that probably explain the fact why western democracies mostly tend to capitalism : human is inherently good = greed is inherent = greed is good (?!)
oh , and of course : "thanks "  |
Communism is maybe a good system on paper, but in reality it does not work, so I could even excuse Lenin for trying this (his generation great -grandchildren, ad well as all in between)are suffering now (and were suffering)because of that what he made possible. but there is no excuse for you for being blind as a bat and advocating 'their' communism from your comfortable chair in front of a computer in a capitalist country. 
For me Stalinist communism is the the same as Hitlers nazism. At least it had the same results. Only that Stalin did not go into an open was with the rest of the world. Which we can all be glad that dhe did not, nor any of his successors. Other communist countries/ regimes were a tad better, or even a lot like Yugoslavia. but it still doesn't come close to present day free market capitalism/ mixed economy as a social- economic norm.
I am not saying that capitalism is prefect, it is far from it, but it is still the best humans came up with so far on a big scale. It should be improved , and communism as it was is surely not the way. I advocate some sort of socialism, like in Sweden which still has many weaknesses, but at least the biggest percentage of people live a decent life.
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DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
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Really, we're mixing the sacred with the profane. I appreciate Roman's sentiments.
Right after the Velvet Revolution, I corresponded with some Kosicens. Oddly, the vanguard of Western culture was the tele-evangelists?   Tell me this is no longer the case, Roman!
Anyway, I view it as a great victory, whatever anybody else says, and despite the fact that the fight consisted mostly of threatening to destroy all human life. Everybody's starting to do good business, which will raise living standards globally.
In time, the commie Chinese will meet their doom. I'm hopeful, although admittedly we're using a slightly different strategy.
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They have beaten Blair & Schroder on the path of the 'third way'!
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