22-11-2001 06:42									#121
	Inflate your Upload Space

I updated on 3.9 for that matter, though the latest changes of NZsubheat haven't gone into the map though, since I updated it before he updated his without taking my changes into account.

overall I think that the terrain geography have been worked out more like civ 2 old map in the 4.6 map. I will notice several errors I found with the 3.9 map:

Gobi Desert TOO large, no way it could cover whole central asia!

Mountains in central china???

Desert in Babylon? and the rivers near there?

Thailand Malaysia redone to more fit civ 2 old map. Before Singapore was connected to one of those islands and out of place

Too many mountains in Europe, you don't have Central Europe covered with mountains...

Mountains near Kenya and no plains?

pine wood in England.

non-pinewood in Sweden?

forest in Helsinki area near Finland?

Jungle covering whole of Indochina (Indochina don't have THAT much jungle).

Mountains and hills covering most of Pakistan







All these "errors" have been corrected for more "realistic" choices.

	22-11-2001 08:08									#122
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What is your problem dude? We're just trying to make a cool world map, don't make a big deal outta small mistakes. I didn't neglect your 'improvements', on page four of the forum you posted NO FILES before any of the 3 versions of my alterations.

I'm happy to add on your improvements however and will do so when i get to my computer. Till then, keep a cool head dreifels and take life easy.

	22-11-2001 08:22									#123
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Actually correcting my last post. I confused you (warlon) with dreifels. Sorry

But yeah, I just missed your post by pure mistake. Sorry dude and remember to keep calm

Subheat

	22-11-2001 14:23									#124
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quote: Originally posted by subheat Actually correcting my last post. I confused you (warlon) with dreifels. Sorry But yeah, I just missed your post by pure mistake. Sorry dude and remember to keep calm Subheat

oh okay np
sorry if I was a bit rash X)

	22-11-2001 15:52									#125
	Inflate your Upload Space

A few thoughts on the map --

First, for anyone who doesn't know this, flood plains (Desert w/river) produce more food than any other square!! So for Babylon and Egypt, don't change the start locations to have Grasslands instead of Desert. The combo of desert and flood plain makes for really fast growing cities.

Second, Having just finished a game on as low a level as warlord there are way to many resources on the map, both luxury and otherwise. This leads to hoarding and little exchanging between the AI civs. Their should be about one or two resources total on the map per civ. SO for a huge map, roughly 16 or 32 of each resource, depending on its strategic value. Also, for goodness sakes give america a horse so that the Iroquois special unit isn't a waste.

Third, please don't change the suez canal or panama canal to be open sea - this screws with the AI's city building, activly cutting off South America and Isolating Africa. Also, the Panama canal and Suez areas can be crossed if a city is placed there, effectively creating a chokepoint. Same with the bosporus.

Lastly, China for anyone who knows is extremely hilly in its western and northern parts so flattening out china I think is a bad idea.

	22-11-2001 19:38									#126
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kaptnwakky A few thoughts on the map -- First, for anyone who doesn't know this, flood plains (Desert w/river) produce more food than any other square!! So for Babylon and Egypt, don't change the start locations to have Grasslands instead of Desert. The combo of desert and flood plain makes for really fast growing cities. Second, Having just finished a game on as low a level as warlord there are way to many resources on the map, both luxury and otherwise. This leads to hoarding and little exchanging between the AI civs. Their should be about one or two resources total on the map per civ. SO for a huge map, roughly 16 or 32 of each resource, depending on its strategic value. Also, for goodness sakes give america a horse so that the Iroquois special unit isn't a waste. Third, please don't change the suez canal or panama canal to be open sea - this screws with the AI's city building, activly cutting off South America and Isolating Africa. Also, the Panama canal and Suez areas can be crossed if a city is placed there, effectively creating a chokepoint. Same with the bosporus. Lastly, China for anyone who knows is extremely hilly in its western and northern parts so flattening out china I think is a bad idea.

hm I would presume that Babylon was supposed to be grassland... but Egypt might be floodplains`if it does give more than grassland in food production.


Aye I myself thought that there were too many resources. But hopefully that will be changed soon


You can still pass from Arabia to Africa and from Northen America to Southern with ground troops. Point is that there is also a passageway for ships now.

GO G=Grassland
OG O=Ocean

That is the general picture of both channels.


Yes northwestern China is hilly, but central china isn't THAT hilly as it was before. If it was like that... how could they breadfeed 1.3 billion people nearly by themselves?

	22-11-2001 22:10									#127
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Great map. All of you put in a lot of work on it. I am encountering a problem with the file, however. Version 4.6 is corrupt (or the file at the end of the link I clicked was at any rate) and therefor unplayable. Version 4.5 had a problem with the tech tree. Wan't able to select techs on the science advisor screen. I tried my other scenarios and did not have a problem. Anyone else noticed this? I'm going to try downloading versions 3.x and see if they work out better.

Any idea why this might be happening? Is it just me? Shame as the map looks great.

	22-11-2001 22:10									#128
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Great map. All of you put in a lot of work on it. I am encountering a problem with the file, however. Version 4.6 is corrupt (or the file at the end of the link I clicked was, at any rate) and therefore unplayable. Version 4.5 had a problem with the tech tree. Wan't able to select techs on the science advisor screen. I tried my other scenarios and did not have a problem. Anyone else noticed this? I'm going to try downloading versions 3.x and see if they work out better.

Any idea why this might be happening? Is it just me? Shame as the map looks great.

	22-11-2001 22:19									#129
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Whoa, what a mess

warlon, sorry, but I just didnt like your version of satya's map, so I didnt update from it. I may have thought about some of your changes and included some in my update, but they were minor. If you want to continue your work, I would sugest you change the file name to something like: satya's alternate world map v?.? There may be others who dont share my opinion

I updated from subheat's 3.9 (after he readded the changes to NZ). Problem with this map is it doesnt have nicbeam's update to Africa, so I tried doing it myself, not an exact replica but i think its ok.

Besides Africa, I think I havent made much geographical changes, readded the atlantic islands, added hills and some mountains in NE Asia, removed just a few in central China (it is hilly there warlon). You can now cross the sea between Italy and Sicily.
The Atlantic Ocean is too small, oh well... no way to fix that without remaking it all in a bigger map I guess

Changed resources a bit. The Orient (China/Japan/India/few other spots) now have all the Spices and Silks, but you wont find much Coal outside Europe (W Russia included), N America and Australia, if any. Other resources have been changed a bit. Saltpeper is all over now, as was sugested.
We should make a couple of new luxury resources with this map, only luxury in Europe is Wine in France, Greece and Portugal.
The copper idea is cool. When Firaxis releases the new editor, im going to start work on a mod using this map.

How's this?

Oh, Satya should also change the text to include the names of the other people who have been working on this

Edit:
File in another post below.

Last edited by Alexandre Madeira on 23-11-2001 at 00:38

	22-11-2001 22:40									#130
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A note to those who are new to this thread:

I dont know why warlon jumped from 3.9 to 4.5/6.

I havent updated from warlon's map cause I didnt liked his changes, so, unless someone has a problem with my latest update, 4.0 should be considered the latest version to satya's map as im writing this.
I'll also mention that warlon's map has some big differences, so you may also want to download his latest version and choose the one you like best.

If anyone wants to do further updates, please mention what version you're updating from, 3.9, 4.0 or worlon's 4.6?

	22-11-2001 23:47									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Alexandre Madeira A note to those who are new to this thread: I dont know why warlon jumped from 3.9 to 4.5/6. I havent updated from warlon's map cause I didnt liked his changes, so, unless someone has a problem with my latest update, 4.0 should be considered the latest version to satya's map as im writing this. I'll also mention that warlon's map has some big differences, so you may also want to download his latest version and choose the one you like best. If anyone wants to do further updates, please mention what version you're updating from, 3.9, 4.0 or worlon's 4.6?

I think there is still some realistic issues with your latest addition to the map Alexandre. Four major issues springs in mind:

Gobi Desert still covering half of China and other Central Asian countries.

Central Europe dominated by mountains, while in Northwestern Europe, Holland Belgium is swamped with forests and half of France covered with hills and forests. Former Yugoslavia was not a mountain country. If anything there should be forests there.

Africa with Etopia covered in desert and South Africa with too few mountains while Zulu start in South Africa and historically Zimbabwe near hills instead of jungle and plains.

Overall too much clustering of terrain in far east Asia, with little diversity in northen eastern Asia only with terrain types hills and forests.



then comes some minor stuff as Chinese starting near Shanghai. No whales near Japan. London not having access to ocean, Germans starting near Hamburg.



I will release a 4.7 soon with changes to London start positioning and adding more hills to northwestern China.

	22-11-2001 23:57									#132
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Didn't see a preview yet... so here we go

180x180 map

Attachment: satya world map preview.jpg
This has been downloaded 903 time(s).

	23-11-2001 00:20									#133
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Ok, how's this?

Also added a river or 2 near the Greek and Persian starting location, so they can irrigate.

Edit:
Fixed English and Chinese starting locations. I think

Edit:
Update to 4.0 below
removed here with 110 downloads.

Last edited by Alexandre Madeira on 25-11-2001 at 21:47

	23-11-2001 05:13									#134
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Now for the new map v4.8

I have looked at 4.0 and tried to combine those two maps.

Added more mountains in Europe

Added more hills in Central Asia

Remade Suez and Panama into land since I realized that the:

GO
OG

sketch didn't work out.

Taken the New Zealand that was in 4.0 and added it into 4.8 removing one uranium though and adding one "calves" (New Zealand sheep )

Added desert in Kazakstahn (I believe that is the name) and added a tid bit more desert in "Gobi" letting it nearly reach the Himalayas.

Redone Greenland so there is only 4-5 grassland up there now.

Redone the Alsace, Lorraine and Luxemborg area to have more forests.

Having the pyrenaeen back.

Made every tundra forest, pinewood.

Added rivers in Indonesia.

Added more a tid bit jungle in Central Africa.




I hope that most people will now be satified with this redoing of the map. I have taken in the most realistic from 4.0 and 4.6 and redoing it.

Also in the map creation process I have tried to balance out the civ starting locations, though I feel that the chinese, english, americans and japanese all have a bit of a starting edge. But I think that will balance out as the game progresses as the chinese will have hard time to get oil and so will japan and England.

Last edited by warlon on 14-12-2001 at 04:03

	24-11-2001 09:46									#135
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I probably won't be doing any more future updates, but here are 2 suggestions.

There seems to be 2 types of satya's world map now & it might be best if both types started their own thread rather than fight over the "satya's world map" name, especially since people are using different versions to update now.

I viewed both v4.0 & v4.8...

My only suggestion to future updates would be for game balance. The map should be made more for a balanced game then geographical accuracy - otherwise the Roman Empire (currently surrounded by other civs & with very little land) will have no hope of success in 'satya's world'. And on the game balance note I think there are FAR too many strategic resources (even when I posted my update I felt there were a little many resources). After game balance should be which geographic areas produce the most of that resource. A typical random huge map has about 22 irons... I think there about 40 on these.

Nevertheless, good work. Take care.

	24-11-2001 15:20									#136
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I hope no-one minds but I really didn't like the map of Australia.. some people don't know how big it really is.. so i redid it.. please feel free to comment..

- I redrew Australia because it wasn't to scale etc..
- I put in the major geographical landscapes and resources but wanted to get it up before any other update as I was using 4.8...

P.S NZ might need to be changed now...

Attachment: satya's world map v4.9.zip
This has been downloaded 112 time(s).

Last edited by Vaul Darkhour on 25-11-2001 at 12:39

	24-11-2001 18:34									#137
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I agree with Pyrodrew, im done with updating geography, but receptive to resource changes to make the map more balanced.
But I wont touch 4.8/9, which should be given a different name since its a hell of a lot different than satya's original.

	25-11-2001 03:20									#138
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I too agree with alexandre and pyrodrew - Any updates should be to one of the two maps since 4.0 and 4.8/9 are so different.

Just to let people know, I am currently working on balancing resources for map 4.0. I plan on having between 20-25 of each resource, allowing for increased trade. As it currently stands, In my game as the americans on monarch level in the American Starting Location, no one trades resources because everyone already has a surplus. I am switching it around so that certain areas are resource rich while others are resource poor. For example, the Middle east is extremely rich in Oil, but lacks really any other significant amount of strategic resource. The idea behind this is to make strategic resources mean just that - strategic. Sure, oil exist all over the world in small qauntities... nearly every country has access to oil in some way, however to represent this would unbalance game issues. Take Saltpeter for instance. It may be everywhere but that is because technology allows for it. Under infantry, they use rubber not saltpeter. This is because Firaxis has noted that by the time infantry are available, saltpeter is everwhere. Just like after a while you no longer need horses or iron. To make these resources everywhere is what historians call retrospecting - placing modern values on historical situations. Sure we could accurately represent resources in this way but it would detract from gameplay and really not be very accurate from a historical perspective.

Thats my thoughts on resources. Look for map 4.1 (based on map 4.0) in a post below with updated rsources.

	25-11-2001 03:42									#139
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I would be careful with placing resources in clusters, like 5-6 oil in middleeast and little elsewhere.

There is need for taking strategic resources out, but the total amount of resources should be around 16 for each luxury resource and strategic. Perhaps clustering 5 oil in middle east is fair enough then placing 1 in alaska, 1 in texas, 1 in norway, 1 in romania, 1 near kaukasus 1 in central asia, 2 in south america and 2 in southeast asia and 1 in australia ?

	25-11-2001 03:54									#140
	Inflate your Upload Space

For that matter can those working on the map currently get together and have a dialog? I believe that we should stick our heads together and work together instead of working on two different versions. My ICQ number is free to add.

The reason I am putting so much effort into this is because the land masses are so greatly formed, and formed much better than I could ever do myself. So lets add eachother to eachtother's DB and start working together

	25-11-2001 04:28									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I too agree with alexandre and pyrodrew - Any updates should be to one of the two maps since 4.0 and 4.8/9 are so different.

Just to let people know, I am currently working on balancing resources for map 4.0. I plan on having between 20-25 of each resource, allowing for increased trade. As it currently stands, In my game as the americans on monarch level in the American Starting Location, no one trades resources because everyone already has a surplus. I am switching it around so that certain areas are resource rich while others are resource poor. For example, the Middle east is extremely rich in Oil, but lacks really any other significant amount of strategic resource. The idea behind this is to make strategic resources mean just that - strategic. Sure, oil exist all over the world in small qauntities... nearly every country has access to oil in some way, however to represent this would unbalance game issues. Take Saltpeter for instance. It may be everywhere but that is because technology allows for it. Under infantry, they use rubber not saltpeter. This is because Firaxis has noted that by the time infantry are available, saltpeter is everwhere. Just like after a while you no longer need horses or iron. To make these resources everywhere is what historians call retrospecting - placing modern values on historical situations. Sure we could accurately represent resources in this way but it would detract from gameplay and really not be very accurate from a historical perspective.

Thats my thoughts on resources. Look for map 4.1 (based on map 4.0) in a post below with updated rsources.

	25-11-2001 11:23									#142
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Phew! sorry about the long absence, but for inexplicable reasons my internet went haywire!! You have *no idea* how annoying it has been not being able to use the net.

Well, looks like quite a lot of stuff is going on!! Um, I don't really know which map to take and change (I can still see Australia needs to be fixed terrain-wise). Which map is the most current? Alexandre could you help me out here? Which one is the most recent collation?

Once again, sorry for the absence.

	25-11-2001 12:37									#143
	Remove this text

Docken - I redrew Australia because it wasn't to scale etc.. I put in the major geographical landscapes and resources but wanted to get it up before any other update as I was using 4.8... It might need minor changing but the basics are there.. I should know.. I live in Australia..

	25-11-2001 14:03									#144
	Inflate your Upload Space

Vaul: It is good to see that Australia has been redone! I haven't seen your version of it yet, but I am sure it recreates Australia well (after all, who better than a native right?)

It is good for me too, as I got somewhat frustrated after my original version of Australia was accidently deleted by another eager map editor.

I am going ot download the new map and see how it plays...

	25-11-2001 18:52									#145
	Put an end to popups!

Hey docken, right now there are 2 different versions of the map.

4.8 saw many changes by warlon, changes I personally dont like much, so I didnt touch it.
I continued updating earlier 3.x versions, some times putting different updates together.

Kaptnwakky is doing 4.1 with updates to the resources, I agree with his comments in the last post, I just ask not to change the oil, believe the main oil fields are in place, with a group in the middle east and a couple near the black sea, and one in north africa, western africa, 2 in different regions in central asia, 1 in venesuela, mexico, texas, alaska, central canada and malasya, think its 16 total.

It seems Vaul Darkhour is updating 4.8 with changes to Australia, so docken, I would sugest you look at 4.1 when Kaptnwakky releases it and do your own changes to Australia if you see the need

	25-11-2001 21:46									#146
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Small update to 4.0, Kaptnwakky, if you're allready working on 4.1, disregard this, I can do it again in 4.1:

Added the Roanoke river south of Washington (and moved the American starting location a bit north).

Moved the Iroquois starting location to where they're supposed to be, somewhere between the Adirondack Mountains and Niagara Falls. (http://www.tolatsga.org/iro.html).

Added bonus to grassland near american, french, german and russian starting locations.

Attachment: satya's world map v4.0.zip
This has been downloaded 63 time(s).

	25-11-2001 22:43									#147
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So are we going to put our heads together and work for a common map or make different versions?

	25-11-2001 23:02									#148
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well, personally, I'll be happy with the map after the resource placement is done and docken updates australia if he sees the need.

Most of the work has been done. Any better would require a larger map.

	26-11-2001 03:09									#149
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wouldn't it just be easier to update 4.9 and onwards.. I took a bit of time to change Australia and the so called 4.0 improvements only cater for resources.. like how hard is it to change resources.. but thats up to the people who download it.. I'm finally happy with the map now that I've edited Australia.. so unless somone updates 4.9.. I'm not downloading anotehr map..

	26-11-2001 03:35									#150
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When warlon did his 4.8, he replaced a bunch of people's work. Thats why I think his map should be given a different name. I dont like his modifications just as I dont like the other Earth maps in this forum.

Kaptnwakky is working on the resources of 4.0, when we're done I'll be happy with 4.1 as well. And if docken updates Australia to restore his work which was replaced by someone like warlon, I'll definitly be happy with 4.2.