08-01-2002 23:48									#31
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG let's bomb it then! we'll surely get them!

I'm sure that the Turks would be more than willing to help you in that enterprise.

I notice that you didn't bother to come up eith a real answer to my point though. Was this thread meant to be a pity paty for the Greek government getting emberassed at thier own incompetence?

	09-01-2002 01:04									#32
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fighting imran

Yes. I do realize it. But maybe you don't realize that the whole broadcasting was based mainly on US information coming from high level governmental people. Like the former US ambassador to Greece.

This is the propaganda war the US government wants to play against Greece. When CBS or any other media goes to the government for info, the government is going to say these things and this sort of slander to the media.

Officially the US government will deny that it supports such allegations.

Also note that these comments come from FORMER US governmental people. That means that the US cannot be held accountable for their positions since they are no longer on the government's payroll.


It's basic propaganda orchistrated seminars. You should know better than make such observations



Dinodoc,

the Greek government is in no way embarassed or in a difficult position because of 17N. And that's because this organization basically poses no problems to the greek people.

So there is no INTERNAL pressure whatsoever to catch it.

External pressure exists. But it is translated by th egreek media and the greek people as "bullying" Hellas. This is, naturally, counter - productive.

The fact is that there is no serious problem and that 17N is used by the US as a pressure tool for achieving other aims as I have mentioned in one of my earlier posts.

The greek government has accepted the co-operation of both CIA and Scotland Yard. Yet none have been able to do find anything.


Your remarks about Turkey are a clear indicationof US policy (and maybe a reason why 17N is seen as no threat compared to the US)



Also to you rests the burden of proving that 17N is not CIA - related as so many things have been in the past.


edit: and something that should have been obvious to you. Anti-americanism raises 3 fold after such attacks on our government and on our country. And rightly so INMO. (anger because this propaganda can be used for other very dangerous for Greece concessions)

Also, the fact that CBS didn't broadcast nothing of the greek foreign minister 80 MINUTES interview and the fact that it portrays the head of the parliement as an "anti-american" and a "nationalist" and asks him wether he supports the actions of 17N should made you blush... Basically it was a US monologue with no arguments from the other side.


BAH!

Τι έχεις Γιάννη μου; Τα'χα πάντα

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 09-01-2002 at 01:35

	09-01-2002 03:21									#33
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Also, the fact that CBS didn't broadcast nothing of the greek foreign minister 80 MINUTES interview and the fact that it portrays the head of the parliement as an "anti-american" and a "nationalist" and asks him wether he supports the actions of 17N should made you blush... Basically it was a US monologue with no arguments from the other side.

when contacted by a greek tv station, a representative of CBS characterized the report as "fair" and said that "CBS does not discuss it's editorial policies"....

it's lovely when journalists refuse to respond to criticism about their work, isnt it?

quote: Τι έχεις Γιάννη μου; Τα'χα πάντα

να σχολιασω τις "υπερηφανες" δηλωσεις σημιτη; αστο καλυτερα...

	09-01-2002 03:28									#34
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG when contacted by a greek tv station, a representative of CBS characterized the report as "fair" and said that "CBS does not discuss it's editorial policies".... it's lovely when journalists refuse to respond to criticism about their work, isnt it?

That's because they don't have any real presure. This is in part because Greece is a small country with no real power to hussle the US (except oppose things in NATO with great cost though or swifting EU policies to protect itself however little it can do that).

And also in part because the US government unofficially backs up these sort of slander (actually encourages it) for the reasons we know all too well.

quote: να σχολιασω τις "υπερηφανες" δηλωσεις σημιτη; αστο καλυτερα...

Αστο να πάει άστο! Και ο Τσε που είπε να κάνουμε μήνυση για συκοφαντία προφανώς δεν γνωρίζει ότι το αποτέλεσμα θα είναι 20πλάσια ανάλογα ρεπορτάζ με τη συνένεση των ΗΠΑ Από την άλλη βέβαια... αν είσαι έτοιμας να δώσεις μάχη ίσως ΙΣΩΣ βγει σε καλό.

Χεσ'τους! Μαθημένα τα βουνά απ'τα χιόνια... (καλά το'χω ρίξει στις παροιμίες με τα μπούνια τελευταία )

	09-01-2002 04:05									#35
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Like I said before... ain't slander if its true.

I still don't understand why this makes 60 minutes McCarthyist though?

	09-01-2002 04:13									#36
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It isn't

McCarthist?

Seeing commies where there aren't any for starters

	09-01-2002 04:18									#37
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Seeing commies where there aren't any for starters

Perhaps they are looking at you.

	09-01-2002 04:20									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Perhaps they are looking at you.

A fine example of what I've said.

	09-01-2002 04:35									#39
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 So there is no INTERNAL pressure whatsoever to catch it.

I think that is what I've been saying. That the Greek government/people are giving a criminal organization that opperates within thier borders thier tacit support. Why are you argueing with me if you agree with me? It makes no sense.

quote: Also to you rests the burden of proving that 17N is not CIA - related as so many things have been in the past.

You're the one making the affirmative claim. The burden of proof rests on you.

quote: (anger because this propaganda can be used for other very dangerous for Greece concessions)

If you didn't have such an incompetent and unprofessional police force & a population giving its tacit support to a criminal organization, you wouldn't have anything to be ashamed of when it comes time for people to ask you to make these phantom concessions.

	09-01-2002 06:24									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I think that is what I've been saying. That the Greek government/people are giving a criminal organization that opperates within thier borders thier tacit support. Why are you argueing with me if you agree with me? It makes no sense.

Because you claim that there is a problem. 17N is nothing compared to other organizations and yet you portate it to be more dangerous than Bin Laden. (way before 11 Sept.)

You are doing that in order to have a trading tool to pressure Greece in consessions to other matters that are important to you. What can't you get from these?

Besides 17N killed the torturers of the US supported Junta. So in my eyes the US is a far worst threat than the 17N could ever be for Greece. (as is proven and could be proven again).

When you talk about Greece you should hang your head in shame and be quite. That is if you have any decency!!!


edit: Oh, and a minor point. The government isn't giving support to 17N are you crazy? It does what it can to catch it along with CIA and Scotland Yard help. But none of those three is good enough for 17N.

quote: You're the one making the affirmative claim. The burden of proof rests on you.

CIA interference is well documented. The burden of prooving 17N is not yet another american pawn is also yours.

quote: If you didn't have such an incompetent and unprofessional police force & a population giving its tacit support to a criminal organization, you wouldn't have anything to be ashamed of when it comes time for people to ask you to make these phantom concessions.

You inflate a minor situation into a gigantic "problem" for your own goals. And you get it wrong again. I am not ashamed (are you kidding me? ashamed in front of what? a yankee?) I am angry by your dirty tricks and your badmouthing of my country.


Besides, CIA should never have been permitted to "assist" Greek police considering its past activities- this is a big humiliation for Greece INMO.

Scotland Yard is another matter.


Phantom consessions? Is it a phantom consession that the US is turning a blind eye to Turkey's aspirations of conquering half the Aegean? And the US pressure to Greece to accept it? (just an exampl ethere are more but that's the most important).

	09-01-2002 06:34									#41
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From another perspective:

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If you didn't have such an incompetent and unprofessional police force

I refrain from judging the US police. It has a lot to look after. (from school shootings to antrax letters, white supremacists and Binnie). It's a sick society you have there

quote: a population giving its tacit support to a criminal organization

I don't like the US government either!

	09-01-2002 07:54									#42
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BTW, Dino, if you want (and are capable of ) a serious discussion about this issue without aphorisms, condemnations, exagerations and so on (from me or you) I'll be glad to have one.


But before this: a government of an Allied to you country is being accused of basicaly supporting terrorism in front of tens of millions of people. The head of that country's parliement is insulted.

And this government doesn't get a chance to address these tens of millions of people and respond?

How democratic is that? (don't answer)

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 09-01-2002 at 08:29

	09-01-2002 08:28									#43
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Because you claim that there is a problem.

I claim that there is an organization who opperates solely within the sovereign territory of Greece who sees nothing wrong with murderering people to achieve its ends and that the Greek people seem to support them in thier goals.

quote: 17N is nothing compared to other organizations and yet you portate it to be more dangerous than Bin Laden. (way before 11 Sept.)

No one is claiming that Greece has the world's worst terrorist problem. What is being claimed here is that they have the world's worst counter-terrorist problem and you've done nothing to prove that assumption wrong despite being given the chance to do so.

quote: CIA interference is well documented.

Which is irrelevent to Greek incompetance wrt dealing with 17N until you actually provide some evidence to the contrary.

quote: I am not ashamed (are you kidding me? ashamed in front of what? a yankee?) I am angry

Which is a symptom of being shamed.

quote: by your dirty tricks and your badmouthing of my country.

Rationalizations for shame.

quote: Besides, CIA should never have been permitted to "assist" Greek police considering its past activities- this is a big humiliation for Greece INMO.

Why is it humiliating? There is no shame in admitting that you are incapable of doing anything about investigating 17N.

quote: And the US pressure to Greece to accept it? (just an exampl ethere are more but that's the most important).

Until you can show me how this is related to the "vile propaganda" regarding 17N, I will continue to call these phantom concessions.

	09-01-2002 08:36									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I claim that there is an organization who opperates solely within the sovereign territory of Greece who sees nothing wrong with murderering people to achieve its ends and that the Greek people seem to support them in thier goals.

This is a misconception. The Greek people do NOT support it. They are basically apathetic because:

_it doesn't threaten them
_it is very rarely active (it has killed 27 people -high ranking politicians and military ppeople - in over 25 years)
_it was sympathetic to it because it was part of a struggle to bring down the dictatorship.

quote: No one is claiming that Greece has the world's worst terrorist problem. What is being claimed here is that they have the world's worst counter-terrorist problem and you've done nothing to prove that assumption wrong despite being given the chance to do so.

These are supossition on your part. Browse up the thread. Other countries including the USA had to spend that much time and more in order to catch these kind of groups.

Having said that, I consent that the Greek police is far from competent in that regard of getting 17N.

quote: Which is irrelevent to Greek incompetance wrt dealing with 17N until you actually provide some evidence to the contrary.

It is relevant (see first responce)

quote: Which is a symptom of being shamed.

Nope. Because there really isn;t anything to be ashamed for in this regard.

quote: Rationalizations for shame.

see previous answer.

quote: Why is it humiliating? There is no shame in admitting that you are incapable of doing anything about investigating 17N.

I said without accusations, exagerations or condamnations. If you still resort to these I w'll have to do the same...

As for the CIA their inclusion to the search has had no result. I guess you can say they are as much in the dark as we are. 9except of course if 17N and CIA is one and the same - show me proof that they are not)
And it is humiliating because the only correct responce in everything the CIA says or wants to do in Greece should be : **** you

quote: Until you can show me how this is related to the "vile propaganda" regarding 17N, I will continue to call these phantom concessions.

You still have to show me the greek's ineptitude and the seriousness of the problem. I see no such proofs.

The US pressure in yielding to Turkish demands is also not a ghost.

Just say that NATO will intervene if Turkey attacks. Will you do that? It's that simple...

Nope. Instead you turn a blind eye to countless turkish air vioations of greek air space and the blackmailing of Turkey to the euro-army.

In Cyprus you also didn;t interve but actually facilitated it. Why won't it happen again?

Not what I want from my US ally... that or the propaganda

	09-01-2002 08:42									#45
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Are all Greeks this paranoid?

MarkG: What is this obsession with CBS? First you disrespect Andy Rooney(America's foremost authority on all things Greek) and now you want to go after the whole network. It's no wonder you guys put those poor innocent Brits in jail for merely looking at airplanes.

	09-01-2002 08:45									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Are all Greeks this paranoid?

Cypriotes were also paranoid?

The air violations are nothing to be concerned about?

Turkey threatening with war every couple of months is also paranoid?


Learn the facts Sprayber or I'll call you paranoid for fearing terrorist attacks in the US

	09-01-2002 08:45									#47
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 This is a misconception. The Greek people do NOT support it. They are basically apathetic because: _it doesn't threaten them _it is very rarely active (it has killed 27 people -high ranking politicians and military ppeople - in over 25 years) _it was sympathetic to it because it was part of a struggle to bring down the dictatorship.

So as long as they kill non Greeks, they are ok? And you guys call the Turks barbarians.

	09-01-2002 08:50									#48
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Cypriotes were also paranoid? The air violations are nothing to be concerned about? Turkey threatening with war every couple of months is also paranoid? Learn the facts Sprayber or I'll call you paranoid for fearing terrorist attacks in the US

this is why we go after terrorists and not casually dismis them as nothing. What happens when this groups decides that their message, whatever the hell that is, would best me made by killing Greeks and destroying buildings. It would kind of be too late then wouldn't it. And before someone says well America did it too. It was damned stupid for us to ignore the things that we did just as stupid as it is for you to ignore them just because they kill ever so often.

	09-01-2002 08:51									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber So as long as they kill non Greeks, they are ok? And you guys call the Turks barbarians.

Most of their kills have been of greeks.

The greek people are not afraid of them.

As to non greeks... the same with non americans. You deplore the deaths of the hundrends of afgani civilians. same here for the 27 deaths (not the fascists though). Although the greeks are NOT responsible for their deaths. It is not our army that killed them. It is 17N.


And don't forget: 27 kills in 25 years many of which were Junta fascists. That's basically an INACTIVE group.

	09-01-2002 08:54									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber this is why we go after terrorists and not casually dismis them as nothing. What happens when this groups decides that their message, whatever the hell that is, would best me made by killing Greeks and destroying buildings. It would kind of be too late then wouldn't it. And before someone says well America did it too. It was damned stupid for us to ignore the things that we did just as stupid as it is for you to ignore them just because they kill ever so often.

Agreed.


with a pointer: mass murder is NOT the profile of 17N.

This organisation is EXTREMELY careful NOT to anger the greek public in any way.


An example: when that brit attachee was killed? It was in the MIDDLE OF HUGE greek resentment for the role of Britain and the US in the bombings of Serbia. You can say 17N does PR...

Of course noone was "satisfied" that a guy was killed. This is not the way. But it didn't produce panic or anything like that.


And I agree with you only if I take for granted that the US is not behind this...

That phrase of one of your presidents in the Cold War" **** your constitution and **** your democracy" to a greek ambassador a little while before the military dictatorship was established tends to stick in memory...

But this is not certified by the american side so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.


However the american ambassador praising the dictatorship in western media also sticks in memory for ever.

	09-01-2002 09:05									#51
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In short the primary danger for Greece is not terrorism. It's those who threaten her with war often and to this very day. Namely Turkey. US actions which are pro turkish bring concern too.

We have lessons of history and I accept that the US had its own agenda, namely containing the Red threat.

Noone is the "enemy" and noone is "evil" but let's get our priorities straight here. For the present.

	09-01-2002 09:26									#52
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and I'll tell you something else.

INMO the Greek government hasn't played its cards right.

Let's see the facts here.

We have a terrorist organization. Many of our most important allies are pissed off with it. It is in the best interest of Greece to break it. We gain nothing from having it anymore. The Junta is gone. (altough some may say that that is like betraying old comrades who, in any case, have gone really bad).

How will this be done since they are a VERY closed group maybe with no more than 10 people.

And they are EXTREMELY educated, propably of very high society standing and unbelievably organised.

They have/had contacts with every major european terrorist group from The Red Brigandes to Carlos.

They almost never screw up and our police does all the time.

Get the CIA in. We did. The Scotland Yard also volunteered. They are in as well.

WHY isn't it caught yet? Because it is damn hard to get them!

You can put as much pressure as you like but that's the fact!

As to weather someone inside the greek government has relationship with them?

Maybe.

That doesn't mean that the government supports it! Come on!

Help if you want. But american reportages badmouthing Greece tends to flare up anti-american passion (for the reasons I explained earlier) and is COUNTER - PRODUCTIVE!


CBS silly and bigoted reportage helped 17N...


but don't listen to me, get an "objective" description

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/200...e_usa_dc_1.html

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 09-01-2002 at 10:14

	09-01-2002 13:01									#53
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paiktis, it's really simple(to think like dinodoc): if you're not arresting 5 people per day (only to release them later) you're not doing your job as a police force...

παρεπιπτωντος, η 17Ν δεν υπηρχε κατα της διαρκεια της χουντας και μονο 2-3 απο τα θυματα ηταν χουντικοι


Sprayber, fact: CBS interviewed 4 greek politicians for the report and only included a couple of seconds of one of them, cut and translated with a totally different meaning...

	09-01-2002 13:56									#54
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Again: Greek police may be unable or unwilling, who knows. But if you have a small ideology driven group of maybe 5-10 people that strike once per year, it is extremely difficult to get them. Such groups are usually cracked by inspector Dumbluck.

Don't know how the americans see this, but Foxnews is not much different from the CBS and co. It's just more blunt about being crappy and chauvinistic.

	09-01-2002 14:30									#55
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quote: να σχολιασω τις "υπερηφανες" δηλωσεις σημιτη; αστο καλυτερα

Why don't you guys enter the modern world and get a real alphabet

	09-01-2002 14:37									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Don't know how the americans see this, but Foxnews is not much different from the CBS and co. It's just more blunt about being crappy and chauvinistic.

Don't let CBS hear you compare them to FOX

I won't defend CBS cause I don't watch them. Most of their reporters seems too arrogant to me. But don't think your case is special. They treat most of their stories like this.

I was just kind of curious about some of the earlier statements about no one caring about N17. N17 seems to be a touchy subject among our Greek posters since it always brings up strong feelings, but then again so does just about everything else.
paiktis22, who happens to be a good friend, talks about them as if they are a romantic group. Freedom fighters gone bad or something of the sort. But otherwise they are simply dismissed as if any criticism is an insult to the Greek people. I don't think that the US government is using N17 as an excuse to slander Greece or trying to undermine their security. Just because N17 isn't racking up an impressive body count doesn't mean they aren't dangerous and don't need to be caught. You guys aren't the only country that has had trouble catching people like this. But don't dismiss the criticisms as merely propaganda.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/au...000/1205893.stm

Apparently CBS isn't the only organization that questions Greece's commitment to catch these people.

	09-01-2002 14:42									#57
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"Don't let CBS hear you compare them to FOX"

Same with NBC and CNN US. I only got CBS news a couple years ago.

To me, their journalistic claim suppsoedly setting them apart from FOX is like that of the brothel owner being a businessman, and who'll beat you up when you call him a pimp.

	09-01-2002 14:51									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Just because N17 isn't racking up an impressive body count doesn't mean they aren't dangerous and don't need to be caught

who said anything different?
the issue is the kind and the rate of coverage given to the issue by western media

quote: But don't dismiss the criticisms as merely propaganda.

criticism is best when followed by
a) facts and evidence not vague statements like "i think we told who we believed to be writing the declarations"
b) the other side's opinion

the cbs report didnt contain any of it....



on the bbc report: 10 words quoted by the greek justice minister, 76 by a former cia man...

	09-01-2002 15:02									#59
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Look, this kind of news is made like this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/09/opinion/09DOWD.html

(need to register I think)


They'll put on what sells. If people want to hear that crime rates in Austria are higher than in south central LA, they'll say it. If it sells in the wake of sept 11th that Greece is a state sponsor of terrorism, they'll say it. If it sells that the earth is flat and demons live in the 4 corners of it, they'll say it.

Just watch it for the farce it is.

	09-01-2002 17:19									#60
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Pardon my jumping in, but on the ETA point:

No one could possibly blame the Spanish government (or the French, for this matter) of being lax with ETA. The Aznar government are putting their greatest effort in eliminate ETA through the "policial?" way, that is, through arresting their members, rather than through political (both secret or public) talks. Same goes for France, who had had very recently a gendarme killed and several wounded by ETA members.

But you could blame the Basque government of being lax with ETA. Let's not forget that the autonomous Basque police is dependant on the Basque government, so the Spanish police is not completely free to act in the Basque country. A quite difficult situation.