 |
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I most certainly have done no such thing. I don't even know where you get your info to base such an allegation. |
Start reading more.
quote:
Page two of this thread is filled with your romantic defenses of the group. |
Trolling you for fun while at the same time resizing the "problem" in its right dimensions.
quote:
I gave you the American definition that is enshrined in its law. |
and...?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
MichaeltheGreat
|
|
Apolyton Grand Executioner
|
 |
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
Service with a smile 
Proof? |
Come on out this way, and I'll see if I can get us a tour of MacDill and Langley.  EURCOM HQ should have some intel files, etc., but as far as I know, classified intel reports aren't published online.
There should be some declassified stuff available in the US National Archives by now, as well as unclassified Dept. of State travel and security advisories, US Senate Intelligence Committee hearings on the Beirut Airport bombing, activities of Abu Abbas and Abu Nidal, the Ollie North arms for hostages hearings, etc.
In other words, there's paper proof out the wazoo, but no convenient website I've bothered looking for, for the simple reason that nobody has yet bothered putting every single piece of paper everywhere online.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'm still waiting for you to tell me when I have refered to the KLA as anything but a terrorist organization, to use a recent example. |
Your government trained it, armed it and let it loose on the serbs during the Yugoslav wars.
I thought supporting terrorists was "a bad thing to do?"
I guess not when it actually serves american interests.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
So don't pester me about "terrorism". You are the masters at that  We are Virgin Mary in comparison.
I mean you have some nerve! You destabilized more governments than I can count including our own. You trained and financed countless terrorist squads all over the globe for your own aims (only to see thme later turn against you...), you bully everyone and you blame other when it is convenient for you of supporting terrorism and going on a propaganda tour to twist reality for your own aims!
Typical! No wonder anti-americanism has its source in Washington as they say!
Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 10-01-2002 at 23:14
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
let's see the very first report I can find on Simitis' visit to the US and his meeting with Bush...
WASHINGTON (AP)
Steadily brightening U.S.-Greece
relations were on full display at the White House Thursday
as President George W. Bush thanked Greek Prime Minister
Costas Simitis for being a «friend» in the fight against
terrorism.
Before news cameras in the Oval Office, Bush also credited
Simitis for easing long-time tensions with rival Turkey.
And the two leaders shared a laugh when Simitis presented
Bush with a sweatshirt for the 2004 summer Olympics in
Athens.
«You can come and run in it,» Simitis offered.
«I don't think I can make the team,» Bush replied with a
chuckle.
As the two sat down to their private meeting, Bush said
the world is better off now that Greek relations with
Turkey have improved.
«I want to thank you for your vision, for your foreign
ministry's hard work to do what is right for the world, to
make the world more peaceful,» Bush said to the prime
minister.
Simitis showed off to Bush two euro coins and said he
hoped Europe's new common currency would come to symbolize
«a new feeling about the possibilities of Europe ... and
closer cooperation with the United States.»
In turn, Bush said: «We've got a lot in common, we've got
a lot of interests in common with your country.»
Warmer relations between the United States and Greece have
also manifested themselves in Greece's offer of military
forces and medical units to the U.S.-led war on terrorist
targets in Afghanistan. And, a half-dozen Greek airmen are
aboard U.S. radar planes patrolling the skies over the
United States.
«I am most appreciative, sir, of your strong stand
against terror. You have been a friend in our mutual
concerns about routing out terror around the world,» Bush
told Simitis.
Privately, however, the Bush administration was expected
to press Greece to take tough action against the
Revolutionary Organization 17 November in the unsolved
murder of British Defense Attache Stephen Saunders in
Athens in June 2000 and other terrorist attacks.
The State Department, in a report last April, implicated
the violent far-left group in a number of anti-Western
attacks. The Bush administration is making the argument
that Greece, in preparing for the 2004 Olympics, can count
on a climate that is more supportive of counterterrorism
measures.
Simitis, his cabinet members and the opposition all have
condemned Saunders' murder and spoken out against
terrorism.
Greece's economy is growing at the rate of 3.8 percent,
probably the fastest of any European country.
That has improved the bilateral relationship, as has the
willingness of the leaders of the ethnic Greek and ethnic
Turkish communities of Cyprus to hold direct talks on the
divided island's future.
Greece's sometimes prickly relationship with the United
States in the past was reflected in the U.S.-led NATO
campaign in 1999 that forced Yugoslavia to withdraw its
troops from the Serbian province of Kosovo.
The government and the Greek public, which is
predominantly Orthodox and segments of which remain
anti-American, showed some sympathy for Belgrade and
President Slobodan Milosevic, but did not try to veto
NATO's successful bombing campaign.
But Greek troops are among the peacekeeping forces in
Kosovo, and territorial disputes with Turkey are being
handled more quietly than in the past.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
Anyway, in conclusion I'll just write what I said to MtG.
That, yes, in the '80s the Papandreou governent might very well have turned a blind eye to people going through Greece. After all he supported Quadaffi openly and in public.
However, the present leadership of Greece is commited to play by the western book.
About the 17N I can see two reasons for not being apprehended so far:
_the police ineptitude
_the lack of laws designed for this sort of thing (such as a witness protection program for example)
However, the left wing of Greece (which is considerable) is very concerned about allowing such anti-terror laws since they will limit civil liberties. This sensitivity comes from the dictatorship years.
And yes the Greek government still plays anti-americanism as a way to cover up its own shortcomings in this issue as well as to bolster popularity amongst the left wing.
The CBS slander helped it big time.
The new develpopments on this front in Greece is that the new anti-terrorism legislation (that allows non civilians jury in cases of judicial cases of terrorism as well as the formation of a prototype witness protection program) has been passed.
I shall refrain from making comments on this info.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
WASHINGTON, Jan 10 (Reuters) - U.S. President George W.
Bush is now two euros richer.
Greek Prime Minister Costas Simitis on Thursday handed the
U.S. president two one-euro coins, newly issued by the European
Union as 12 of the 15 member states rolled out a common
currency on Jan. 1.
"This means a big bang I would say for Europe, because the
whole environment will change. There will be new feeling about
the possibilities of Europe," Simitis said as he met Bush in
the Oval Office.
The united currency may also lead to a "closer cooperation
with the United States in order to solve the common problems,"
he said.
Simitis is the first European Union leader to meet Bush
since the euro's introduction.
He also gave a Bush a T-shirt with an emblem of the 2004
summer Olympic Games in Athens, preparations for which have
been running behind schedule. "You can come and run with me,"
Simitis said to Bush, an avid runner.
"I don't think I can make the team," Bush said.
"It's going to be a magnificent moment for the sporting
world to have the Olympics return to Athens. I'm confident
your country will do a fine job," he said.
The president commended Simitis for an improvement in
Greek-Turkish relations, saying "the world is better off" as
tensions between the two historic rivals lessen, and said he
appreciated Greece's participation in the global war against
terrorism.
Simitis said it was important to address what he called
terrorism in the Balkans as part of the global anti-terror
effort.
If you read through the lines you'll see a clear amelioration of relations as well as mild warnings from Simitis side about the EU parameter in the relationship with the US as well as mild pressures by Bush in not stopping being "friendly" with Turkey.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
BTW I find it very frustrating that apart from being honest in the end and telling things how they are, not even one american has stepped forward and acknowledge the crimes the US has done to countries like Greece.
In retrospecte if Greece looked the other way while people wanted by the US traveled through her territory, how can this be compared with the US having destabilised Greece's democracy before?
Or looking the other way (at best) when Turkey invaded Cyprus?
How can those things be compared?
Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 11-01-2002 at 05:26
|
|
| |
|
|
|
axi
|
 |
Athens Greece
Sep 1999
time: 07:17
|
|
I feel that the next target in America's war on terrorism will be Italy. Quadaffi's son just bought Juventus F.C.
Two euros and a T-shirt? Hell this is two euros more than what any of the Olympic "volunteers" will get as pay for their efforts...
quote:
The new develpopments on this front in Greece is that the new anti-terrorism legislation (that allows non civilians jury in cases of judicial cases of terrorism as well as the formation of a prototype witness protection program) has been passed. |
Ask Abraham Lesperoglou about it. I guess that soon the courthouses will stop judging him not-guilty...
Lesperoglou, then a member of an anarchist group, has been accused of participating in the murder-robbery of a pharmacist in 1982, but, having gone to Palestine to help with the 1st Indifada, was condemned in absence. Ten years later he came back to Greece and was imprisoned, but he was found not-gulty in his appeal. Meanwhile, he was prosecuted for various other terrorist-related crimes that had occured in the same era and in every case he has been proven innocent. He has also been condemned in a military courhouse for skipping his military duty, but he has already served much more time than that penalty demands. He has been released this fall, but is still in danger of being imprisoned again. In all his trials, it is the civilian jury that has unanimously supported his innoccense, while the judges (whose votes count in the jury, 3/7 IIRC) have mostly supported his guilt.
Under such anti-terrorist laws, the police can plant a molotov in your backpack in some demo and voilą: there's a caught terrorist to please the Americans!
And one final comment:
quote:
I'm feeling SO anti-american right now |
Take care not to tear your pantyhose!
(greek idiomatic phrase)
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
Okey dokey.
Isn't always demonizing the americans a bit over the top though?
I find this sort of behavior more than just a tad "provensial".
If it comes from the west, it's wrong. Everything that comes from the US is de facto blackmail and slander.
IIRC the policeman that was to take the motorcycle which was used in the killing of Saunders to the police research center, took extra care to clean all the dust from the seat before he handed it over...
When asked if it did ever cross his mind that what he did might have taken away crucial clues he responded that he didn't want to give it "dirty" to Scotland Yard...
Are we ever going to catch anybody with morons like this? (including all this new organised crime?)
Perhaps if the government (any government) actually tried to sort things out instead of using anti-americanism every time the people hear accusations about Greece things would be better for everyone.
Also how many people really know the facts about the anti-terrorism law? Ask anybody and he'll say it's american blackmail, it's bad. How many KNOW what this new law constitues?
Maybe if newspapers spent less time attacking the US and acting like revolutionaries against "american oppression" (TM) and spend more time analysing WITHOUT anti-american or any other bias what this law is about we would have a much more informed public?
And isn't schizophrenic that apparently everyone is conveinced this law is american - made fascism (without propably even knowing one clause of it) yet everyone is too happy to do nothing about it?
And how long are we going to be hunted by Junta phantasms?
If a cop still hasn't got the right to shoot without a... state attorney present to give the authorization, do you think he's any good?
It's so much easier just to feel proud of standing against the US than actually getting some real work done on modernizing and training our police...
When Miller's wife talked about the sex trade from eastern Europe going on in Greece all the media acted shocked and all they basically contributed to the case was saying" you are the US ambassador's wife so shut up". How constructive was that?
I wouldn't trust an american official as far as I can spit but on the same time I won't be listening to half arsed comments made by newspapers who don't have the first clue about what's going on.
You know how much easier it is writing an anti-american libel than actually doing some real research work?
About schizhophrenia, the whole Greece is so!
Shouting our mouths out againgst the US, EU or anything western, feeling "justification" by the killing of Saunders or the americans in the WTC, while at the same time happily eating EU funds and being under the protection of NATO?
Burning american flags for the bombings of Serbia and then giving all too happy the consent for it to go on?
Glorifying Milosevic and being in a state of complete denial that Serbia is capable of anything wrong and that is nothing more than a victim of western aggression and yet having Greek crews on AWACS duting the campain and opening up military ports and roads for the NATO troops to come through?
If this isn't hypocricy I don't know what is.
Are we part of the west or are we not?
Reality check: isn't the US, no matter how it has sucked in the past, a stabilizing factor between Greece and Turkey NOW?
Would we be better off outside of NATO?
Does the US and the UK have as their only purpose to screw us over in the euro-army or would you rather have 400 turkish F16s every day or even another hot incident in the Aegean would Turkey's positions had been casually thrown out by the west to the basket bin?
That's reality and we are stuck with it.
Noone wants our anihilation noone lives and dies by his only wish being to **** us up. It's all a matter of balance. Demonizing everything, throwing blankets over our heads and keep telling ourselves that we are the victims and the bad world is out to get us is just what OUR government wants.
Just a few thoughts from "the other side"
BTW Turks call Greece "the spoiled child of the West"; being able to do whatever mischief we want and still being forgiven and looked after by "daddy".... Maybe it's time we grow up?
Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 11-01-2002 at 10:12
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sikander
|
 |
Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:17
|
|
A very interesting post Paiktis, I learned a lot from it. You are correct in assuming that we have no interest in fvcking you guys over, we have enough enemies without picking a fight for nothing.
The reason no American is willing to speak about the Junta, and whatever part in it America may have played is because most if not all of us know next to nothing about it. This is in part because any part played by the CIA is likely to be still classified, and because Greece is on our radar a lot less than similar situations which occurred to our south during the many years of the Cold War. I'm not trying to be glib or anything, but Americans have a lot more cultural ties to Central and South America and Western Europe than they do to the Balkans / Aegean.
It is certainly easy to blame powerful nations for your problems, and it is even sometimes accurate. You correctly point out though that it is counterproductive to assume that someone else has the initiative and power over you and the inclination to use it against you. This is a problem we see all too often in the Moslem world. Why are people in Saudi Arabia more worried about Islam's third holiest site than they are about the fact that they live on a sea of oil and are still poor and oppressed? The Moslem world in general, and the Arabs in particular have obsessed about being screwed over, and have let the world surpass them in every measure of economy and freedom. It's good to see that Greece hasn't followed that example, and (with some exceptions like Axi  ) embraced economic growth and freedom.
With the Cold War over our (Greece - USA) importance to one another geopolitically has lessened. This is a two-edged sword, in that there is less binding us together, but we are also free to be frank with one another and let our relationship float to it's natural level. We don't have to prop up your weak pro-western political parties with secret money, and you can't blame your crappy governments on us anymore, and can instead hold them accountable. We will still try to keep the peace between you and Turkey, as we are trying to do the same between India and Pakistan. Hopefully this will succeed in both instances.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:17.
Apolyton Time is 00:17. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
10-01-2002 22:11
Attachment: 
|
