10-01-2002 09:05									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I really am too lazy a bastard to reply, but oh well as ****ed up as this may be, I see nothing wrong with it. Parents force worse things on their children. Like the Catholic religion

In any case, I agree this is a horrible decision. A horrible disability does not amount to a culture. Yes, there may be close knit-support groups, but that hardly justifies the burden you would have to go through. The ability to recieve verbal communications is one of the most important abilities we have. Imagine not being able to communicate with people in your regular life. You would not be able to functinoally attend normal classes. Your friends would be limited to people who also have the disability. What could you do for a living would be very limited. You could not listen to music. In your movie-going experiences you could not hear sound-effects. Your life could even be jeapordized because you may not hear warnings or car horns.

It is human nature to try to percieve weaknesses as strengths, but the fact is there are is just too many things you cannot do.

	10-01-2002 09:07									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai One great thing about "deaf culture" is that instead of looking at deafness as a negative, it is viewed as a positive. In other words, instead of viewing themselves as victims of a disability, they perceive their deafness as a strength.

Great, so they avoid reality to make themselves feel better.

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What do you think of the French Canadian parent living in a Montreal who does not teach their child to speak English. Is this child abuse?

That is not the same. Not learning a language is not nearly as limiting as being deaf.

	10-01-2002 09:08									#33
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quote: These are not riskless procedures. You have another thing coming if you think it should be against the law for parents to refuse to have their daughter implanted with a device that's not necessary for her survival. She's not dying, she's perfectly healthy. She just can't hear

So? These people aren't declining to perform the operation because they're afraid of the danger; they're afraid their daughter will lose her "deaf culture".

Too ****ing bad if she loses her deaf culture, and too ****ing bad if the parents don't want it to happen. They aren't looking out for the best interests of their child; they're engaging in a political statement with their child's health and they should be stopped. What if their child had a severe ear infection and they let the doctors save her life, but refused to let them save her hearing? Should that be allowed too?

Some schizoid came up with the idea of a deaf culture to make deaf people feel better about themselves. If they want to hold marches and go to gatherings where they all worship a statue of a punctured eardrum then they're free to do so. By rejecting out of hand the idea of giving their daughter the ability to hear, they're demonstrating their lack of fitness to be her parents.

	10-01-2002 09:08									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The part I saw, the kid was arguing with the parents because the kid wanted the thing. The Dad was emphatically telling the kid, "no" in sign language, but the desparate look on the kid's face said it all.

I think legal right should be given to the kid in this case, rather than the parent.

Certainly not the state though.

	10-01-2002 09:08									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The part I saw, the kid was arguing with the parents because the kid wanted the thing. The Dad was emphatically telling the kid, "no" in sign language, but the desparate look on the kid's face said it all.

Just because a kid really wants something doesn't mean the parents should give it to the child.

	10-01-2002 09:11									#36
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I agree with Krazyhorse.

	10-01-2002 09:12									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What's the problem, KH? The child is perfectly healthy and will still be able to lead a productive life. What is the State interest in over-riding personal freedom when no life is being put at risk?

We force children to go to school, yet there is no concrete health risk there. Parents aren't, and shouldn't be allowed complete freedom in raising their children. When the parent does things manifestly against the best interest of the child, then that parent loses the right to raise his child. Children can't speak competently for themselves, so the State needs to do it for them.

	10-01-2002 09:12									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I agree with Krazyhorse.

You would entrust the STATE in matters like this?!

Are you CRAZY?

	10-01-2002 09:13									#39
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The parents are saying their child can have a full and rewarding life without the implant and that in their opinion the implant would lead to a lesser life.

The parents should have the choice to decide.

	10-01-2002 09:14									#40
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse We force children to go to school, yet there is no concrete health risk there.

Going to school != invasive operation changing who you are.

quote: Parents aren't, and shouldn't be allowed complete freedom in raising their children. When the parent does things manifestly against the best interest of the child, then that parent loses the right to raise his child. Children can't speak competently for themselves, so the State needs to do it for them.

ARGH!
That's sooooo wrong.

You would entrust the CANADIAN GOVERNMENT with decisions like this?
NEED I REMIND YOU about the Avro Arrow?
How about losing billions of dollars?

The Government can't make any decisions, I'd certainly not want them making decisions for me.
Why don't they just raise them for me?

	10-01-2002 09:15									#41
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse We force children to go to school, yet there is no concrete health risk there. Parents aren't, and shouldn't be allowed complete freedom in raising their children. When the parent does things manifestly against the best interest of the child, then that parent loses the right to raise his child. Children can't speak competently for themselves, so the State needs to do it for them.

Are Canadian parents forced to send their children to school?

	10-01-2002 09:16									#42
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I'm leaving this thread- hold the applause. You guys are a bunch of whackos!!!!

There is no precedent for this. The state allows christian scientist to forgo medical treatment for themsevles and their children. So obviousy the state can't force the parents to have sugery on their kid

What is wrong with you people?

Why don't we just set up special orphanages for unfit parents. Since it seems many of you people who probably don't have kids seem to know what an unfit parent is. The goverment should take the kids away from unfit parents and put them in special camps where they can thrive.

	10-01-2002 09:16									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The parents are saying their child can have a full and rewarding life without the implant and that in their opinion the implant would lead to a lesser life. The parents should have the choice to decide.

I say that my children (hypothetical) can have full and rewarding lives without being sent to school (or home-schooled according to the laws governing it) and that in my opinion such formal education would lead to a lesser life.

Both opinions are, simply, wrong enough that they necessitate State intervention.

	10-01-2002 09:17									#44
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If the kid wants the implant, then she's made a conscious decision of her own free will. By all means, she should get the implant if she wants it.

As for deafness somehow limiting a person's life....PPFFFFF. LordStone, who all the old timers should remember, was born deaf. And last I heard from him, he's leading a full life with higher education, a boyfriend, and an active social life. Deafness only limits you if you let it limit you. There's a ton of stuff available, from sign language to implants, to help the deaf adapt.

Don't get me wrong either, I'm a big fan of chochlear implant There's something amazing about being the first civilisation in history that can make the deaf hear.

Update: Just saw the post about the kid wanting the implant. The parents can go screw themselves then. If the kid wants it, they should get it. I was under the impression that someone outside the immediate family was pressuring the kid to get the implant.

	10-01-2002 09:17									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Are Canadian parents forced to send their children to school?

Either that or home-school them according to certain regulations.

	10-01-2002 09:19									#46
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one more post, honest

BTW the state doesn't force people to school their children. You aren't even required to home school your children. At least in my state. The state cannot take away a kid because he isn't schooled.

	10-01-2002 09:19									#47
	Re: Re: Re: Deaf "culture" Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Not learning a language is not nearly as limiting as being deaf.

It can be the same thing. I have problems understanding people who speak Cantonese. The fact that I can hear what they are saying doesn't make a difference if I don't understand what they say. I am no better off than the deaf person.

	10-01-2002 09:20									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident one more post, honest BTW the state doesn't force people to school their children. You aren't even required to home school your children. At least in my state. The state cannot take away a kid because he isn't schooled.

I'm pretty sure it's require in most US states. Not certain. (Not even absolutely certain about up here).

EDIT: Now I am.

From http://www.evidyarthi.com/studyabro...scenariocan.asp

quote: Elementary education in Canada begins at the age of 6 yrs and continues till middle school. It is compulsory for every child to attend school. Secondary education in Canada commences soon after elementary education and continues till the age of 16 yrs. Both Elementary and Secondary level education are compulsory in Canada. A child must attend school between the ages of 6 years to 16 years

	10-01-2002 09:21									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild As for deafness somehow limiting a person's life....PPFFFFF. LordStone, who all the old timers should remember, was born deaf. And last I heard from him, he's leading a full life with higher education, a boyfriend, and an active social life. Deafness only limits you if you let it limit you. There's a ton of stuff available, from sign language to implants, to help the deaf adapt.

	10-01-2002 09:23									#50
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse We force children to go to school, yet there is no concrete health risk there.

Which, I'm sure you realize is several steps below forcing invasive surgery on a child?

quote: Parents aren't, and shouldn't be allowed complete freedom in raising their children.

Why not?

quote: When the parent does things manifestly against the best interest of the child,

How exactly is this against the best interests of the child? Starchild has already given you an example of a deaf person leading a full, happy, and productive life and thier are innumerable other examples.

quote: Children can't speak competently for themselves,

I couldn't have said it better myself. That is exactly why we don't allow them to submit themselves to invasive surgery.

	10-01-2002 09:27									#51
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There have been a few cases where deaf people have asked to have the implant taken out. The procedure is reversible.

	10-01-2002 09:29									#52
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And there are numerous examples of uneducated children living healthy and productive lives. Irrelevant. The ability to hear is a great advantage, as is the ability to read, to do math, etc.

I agree that forcing education is below the level of forcing surgery, but this is an extraordinary situation. The inability to hear is an immense problem. It can be life-endangering, and limits your capabilities in as many ways as the inability to walk does.

	10-01-2002 09:30									#53
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KrazyHorse: You do realize that what you're proposing is akin to proposing the government mandating all children be circumcized upon birth?

It should be left up to the parent (although I think it should be left up to the kid actually, but they'll be so old when they have the ability to decide they'd not want it )

	10-01-2002 09:37									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Just because a kid really wants something doesn't mean the parents should give it to the child.

This isn't a freaking lollipop or the latest barbie doll.

It's somebody's HEARING!!!

	10-01-2002 09:39									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker This isn't a freaking lollipop or the latest barbie doll. It's somebody's HEARING!!!

We're talking about a six-year-old child. Do you think this child has the ability to make an informed decision about invasive surgery?

	10-01-2002 09:40									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Asher KrazyHorse: You do realize that what you're proposing is akin to proposing the government mandating all children be circumcized upon birth?

Please explain how having a foreskin has significantly negatively impacted my life.

Also, for the US:

quote: Compulsory Schooling Compulsory schooling ends by law at age 16 in 30 states, at age 17 in nine states, and at age 18 in 11 states plus the District of Columbia. Students may drop out of school if they have reached the age set in their state's law for the end of compulsory schooling, but dropouts are not considered to have completed school and no certificate or award is issued at this stage

from http://www.ed.gov/NLE/USNEI/us/struc-geninfo.html

If you add up those numbers (30+9+11+D.C.), then you see that education is compulsory in 50 states + D.C. Which state are you from again, Dissident? Puerto Rico?

	10-01-2002 09:42									#57
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Please explain how having a foreskin has significantly negatively impacted my life.

That's not my point.

My point is you can live happily ever after with or without it. Choices like that shouldn't be left up to the government. They should be left up to the kid (if he/she understands what's going on), or the parent. The kid can always get the implants later if she wants.

	10-01-2002 09:44									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That's not my point. My point is you can live happily ever after with or without it. Choices like that shouldn't be left up to the government. They should be left up to the kid (if he/she understands what's going on), or the parent. The kid can always get the implants later if she wants.

That is my point. You can live happily if you were raised in a small underground cavern without human contact on a diet of fish heads and rice, but in general such conditions do harm to people, so we make it illegal to do this to children.

	10-01-2002 09:45									#59
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That is my point. You can live happily if you were raised in a small underground cavern without human contact on a diet of fish heads and rice, but in general such conditions do harm to people, so we make it illegal to do this to children.

I don't think you're understanding the gravity of what you're saying.

You're talking about letting the government force its will onto people for optional surgeries. Do you realize the precedence this would set?

	10-01-2002 09:46									#60
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that doesn't illustrate your point. It just says they are considered dropouts if they leave school. People leave school all the time in my city. They are called dropouts. No one forces them to go to school.

we also have very rural counties in my state. No one forces these kids to go to school.