10-01-2002 20:37									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker That isn't the point.

It is exactly the point. The child lacks the ability to give informed consent for submitting him/herself to an invasive surgery and the parents have decided not to allow the opperation as is thier right.

quote: Nice play on words there

Nice dodge.

quote: the kid wants to hear, the parents are not letting her hear.

So if the child's parents deny the child a bike are they taking that away from him/her as well?

quote: If they said the risk was too great, fine, I'd be happy with that.

Why is that? It is the same exact decision.

quote: you cant listen to music and compose can you?

Why don't we ask Beethoven (sp)?

	10-01-2002 21:06									#92
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc So if the child's parents deny the child a bike are they taking that away from him/her as well?

I cant believe you are comparing the ability to hear with a bike.

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why don't we ask Motzart (sp)?

He was not born deaf and neither was Beethoven who I think you are referring to so your comment is irrelevant.

	10-01-2002 21:10									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I cant believe you are comparing the ability to hear with a bike.

Perhaps you could explain to me how someone could take something from you that you never had to begin with then?

quote: He was not born deaf so your comment is irrelevant.

You said that a deaf person could not compose music. Stop backpedaling, Cali.

	10-01-2002 21:13									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai People who are born without an arm or a leg (such as the thalidimide kids) generally say that it doesn't bother them, or words to that effect IIRC. The logic is that they have never experienced having two arms or two legs so they don't know what they are missing. They would say that they don't need two arms. One will do quite fine, thank you. I know it sounds weird, but that's what they say. Who am I to tell them they are wrong. Besides, think of it this way. Do you regret the fact that you don't have a third set of arms? Of course not.

You cant compare having a third set of arms because nobody has this anyway - its not normal. The fact is that being deaf is a DISABILITY. This is a fact that deaf people need to accept instead of living in a fantasy. Even the child could see the advantages of being able to hear even though she had never experienced it. Just like someone with no arms would see the advantages of having arms.

	10-01-2002 21:17									#95
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Perhaps you could explain to me how someone could take something from you that you never had to begin with then?

It is opportunity that is being taken from this child.

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You said that a deaf person could not compose music. Stop backpedaling, Cali.

Backpedaling? The whole thread has been about people who have never been able to hear and now you are talking about people who lost their hearing as adults. Two very different things.

	10-01-2002 21:26									#96
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Curious.. does everyone agree that if the parents had said that the reason they didn't want their child getting this implant is due to the risks involved, there would be no problem?

So does this all come down to their reason for doing this?

Regarding the state having a say in this I am concerned as they would be the ones deciding what is normal, and what is not. This concerns me as it would be in affect a mob rule, would it not.

	10-01-2002 21:31									#97
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Curious.. does everyone agree that if the parents had said that the reason they didn't want their child getting this implant is due to the risks involved, there would be no problem?

This type of surgery used to be risky, but nowadays the risk is very very small so I would still have a problem with the parents decision.

quote: Originally posted by November Adam Regarding the state having a say in this I am concerned as they would be the ones deciding what is normal, and what is not. This concerns me as it would be in affect a mob rule, would it not.

It doesnt take the government to decide that having the ability to hear is normal does it? I think we can all agree on that.

	10-01-2002 21:46									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia This type of surgery used to be risky, but nowadays the risk is very very small so I would still have a problem with the parents decision.

Caligastia, I often have problems with other peoples decisions, but that doesn't mean I can tell them what to do, even if I try.

quote: It doesnt take the government to decide that having the ability to hear is normal does it? I think we can all agree on that.

Nope, but who would enforce it? As well the government tends to decide they have to keep busy so they keep doing more and more, and make a mess out of everything.

I am just as distressed as you are by their reasoning, and I don't understand it, but it isn't criminal as they aren't causing harm to the child. He/she (is this a boy or girl?), didn't have hearing to begin with, so it is not like they are puncturing the kids ear drums. And being deaf is not life threatening, if it were then these two parents wouldn't even be around.

	10-01-2002 21:53									#99
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Caligastia, I often have problems with other peoples decisions, but that doesn't mean I can tell them what to do, even if I try.

So nobody should tell anybody what to do...?

quote: Originally posted by November Adam Nope, but who would enforce it? As well the government tends to decide they have to keep busy so they keep doing more and more, and make a mess out of everything. I am just as distressed as you are by their reasoning, and I don't understand it, but it isn't criminal as they aren't causing harm to the child. He/she (is this a boy or girl?), didn't have hearing to begin with, so it is not like they are puncturing the kids ear drums. And being deaf is not life threatening, if it were then these two parents wouldn't even be around.

The parents are still forcing a disability on this child. To me this is harmful. Its harmful to the childs growth and development.

The government doesnt mess up everything it touches you know...

	10-01-2002 21:57									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia The parents are still forcing a disability on this child. To me this is harmful. Its harmful to the childs growth and development.

How is it harmful to the childs growth and development?

The child can still think, eat, sleep, read, write, work, play, create, etc, etc, etc.

	10-01-2002 21:58									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia The government doesnt mess up everything it touches you know...

deep breath

	10-01-2002 22:09									#102
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam How is it harmful to the childs growth and development?

Do I really have to spell it out for you?

	10-01-2002 22:18									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Do I really have to spell it out for you?

Please do. The deaf community has done their best to ensure that their growth and development isn't harmed. Deaf people aren't different, they may have some disadvantadges, but those are overcome.

	10-01-2002 22:52									#104
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I think that is wrong for the parents to have done this.

But not illegal.

There is an important difference there. They were being bad parents but it was not such that the state should step in. The state should only step in when a law is being broken (abuse or the like) or the parents are being such bad parents that the lifef of the child is in danger which it is not in the case.

Hopefully the parents will see reason before much more time goes by. Oh, and those who maintain the deafness is not a disability are being obtuse.

Jon Miller

	10-01-2002 23:16									#105
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Please do. The deaf community has done their best to ensure that their growth and development isn't harmed. Deaf people aren't different, they may have some disadvantadges, but those are overcome.

They cant overcome the fact that they cant hear.

	10-01-2002 23:20									#106
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Nope but they make do. Are deaf people raving lunatics, or sociopathic criminals due to their disability? It seems to me that they are just fine.

	10-01-2002 23:34									#107
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Nope but they make do. Are deaf people raving lunatics, or sociopathic criminals due to their disability

Did I say they are?

quote: Originally posted by November Adam Please do. The deaf community has done their best to ensure that their growth and development isn't harmed. Deaf people aren't different, they may have some disadvantadges, but those are overcome.

Are you honestly telling me that you cant think of any ways in which a child who grows up unable to hear is limited in their development? Im sure you can if you try...

	10-01-2002 23:34									#108
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I wasn't trying to compare this to genocide, or anything like that. I was trying to make some people realise that they have no right to decide who is 'normal' or 'correct' and who is 'abnormal' or 'flawed'. The point of my sarcasm was to point out the extreme that this attitude has been taken to in the recent past, where genocide was commited and anyone who was deemed to be 'flawed' was steralized to prevent them from reproducing - all in the name of creating a pure, or 'correct' race.



Being with out hearing is not a disability to someone who is born that way, to them it is the norm!

The only way someone can be handicapped is if they lose something they where born with - and even then it doesn't have to be a handicap, given the right attitude and the willingness to accept thier loss a person can overcome anything... ofcourse, it's alot more difficult when people are constantly demeaning or patronizing you, and telling you that you are less a person then they.

	10-01-2002 23:38									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Are you honestly telling me that you cant think of any ways in which a child who grows up unable to hear is limited in their development?

Let's use the earlier example of an old 'Poly poster. Can you tell me exactly how someone who is leading a full life with higher education, a boyfriend, and an active social life is limited in thier development?

	10-01-2002 23:44									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Are you honestly telling me that you cant think of any ways in which a child who grows up unable to hear is limited in their development? Im sure you can if you try...

Sure I can think of ways, but I would like to know what YOU think, as your the one saying that this child would be adversaly affected.

People can overcome limitations, it actually helps build character. I am not saying we should stop trying to prevent these disabilities from occuring, but I am saying that people with these disabilities are not invalids.

Calig I understand what your saying, believe me I do. Yet parents should be allowed to raise their kids as they see fit (as long as they aren't commiting a crime), as should you.

	10-01-2002 23:50									#111
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Umm the parents are sick.....First of all... the "Deaf Culture" isnt a culture at all...in fact, its a handi-cap!

When you say its a culture. I dont quite understand. If someone said you can be healed tommorrow? Why not Heal? I watched that same show, and they viewed Deaf culture as "Special" and should be preserved... Special my ass, its a damn handicap!



What I have to say about the parents, Selfish, Rude, and ignorant.

Saying things like "I dont want my child to grow up not knowing his deaf roots"? Wtf is that?


BTW, Co-hearing implants dont work for everybody. But they work good for children.

	11-01-2002 00:18									#112
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Sure I can think of ways, but I would like to know what YOU think, as your the one saying that this child would be adversaly affected. People can overcome limitations, it actually helps build character. I am not saying we should stop trying to prevent these disabilities from occuring, but I am saying that people with these disabilities are not invalids. Calig I understand what your saying, believe me I do. Yet parents should be allowed to raise their kids as they see fit (as long as they aren't commiting a crime), as should you.

One common way to overcome limitations is to go to the doctor (it is generally what I do when I am very ill or had a broken bone).

The parents are being bad parents (and you and Dino are being idiots defending their choice), but that does not make what they are doing illegal.

Cal:

Imagine that "Deaf Culture" is a new religion.
shouldn't parents be able to raise there kids in any religion as long as it is not against the law (actually indians can do it even if it is against the law)

The parents choice is not what I am defending (it is one of the stupidist choices I have heard of) and I think the whole "Deaf Culture" is one that should be eliminated (and not protected by the government) but they can make religious choices for their kids as long as it is not against the law.

Jon Miller

	11-01-2002 00:24									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller The parents are being bad parents (and you and Dino are being idiots defending their choice), but that does not make what they are doing illegal.

I'm defending the parents against people who wish to use State power to over-ride the parental freedom in this case and saying that the child will not become an invalid due to the parent's decision. Which seems to what your doing for the most part.

	11-01-2002 00:29									#114
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm defending the parents against people who wish to use State power to over-ride the parental freedom in this case and saying that the child will not become an invalid due to the parent's decision. Which seems to what your doing for the most part.

Except you are saying it is not that bad and seem to be (and I could be misinterpreting this) defending the parents choice.

The child will be handicapped and have a huge loss of opportunities and probably enjoyment from this. As such the parents are bad parents and people should recognize this and treat them and their ideas as such. But the state should only act when laws are being broken.

Jon Miller

	11-01-2002 00:37									#115
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Fascinating debate.

But I think that this 'deaf culture' nonsense has to stop. It has absolutely no moral worth.

I can see deaf parents deliberately trying to deafen their children in order to perpetuate this 'valuable culture'.

	11-01-2002 00:45									#116
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same here

I wonder where this started

(wondering when people will start seeing the need of spreading the AIDS culture)

I think some blame might go to the be proud of your disabilities crowd. I am not saying be ashamed of oyur disabilities but rather to recognize them for what they are, disabilities.

Jon Miller

	11-01-2002 00:51									#117
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quote: Nice dodge.

Ditto.

quote: Why is that? It is the same exact decision.

It is the same decision, however, what you are overlooking is the
CONSEQUENCES OF THE DECISION.

Parents decide not to have surgery due to risks = This implies that the procedure is risky, and therefore the kid is spared from being possibly being hurt.

Parents decide not to have surgery due to "deaf culture" = This implies that the procedure is safe, they are not sparing the kid from harm, but simply denying the kid due to their own ridiculous beliefs in this, "deaf culture."

And all this bs you guys are spouting out about how the kid isn't old enough to know any better, that's a complete crock. Kids are very simple and very honest, they have an awareness, AND THIS KID OBVIOUSLY HAS AN AWARENESS THAT HE WANTS TO HEAR.

That's all it boils down to really. This whole deaf culture is a complete crock, and how dare these parents force something like that on their kid.

If I was a kid and in that situation, I would be pissed at my parents for life.

When the kid grows up resenting his parents, wondering, "what if?" let's see how you all feel about this "mature, informed" decision then.

Very poor decision here.

	11-01-2002 03:16									#118
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Ok, now answer this.


You are the kid, and your parents tell you 12 years later, that you had a chance to be normal..... But because your mom and dad werent normal, they decided not to give you hearing.

How would you react?

	11-01-2002 03:36									#119
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I bet all of you who think its okay for the parents to do what they did would see it differently if the kid was born blind and could have cataracts removed.

	11-01-2002 03:38									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I bet all of you who think its okay for the parents to do what they did would see it differently if the kid was born blind and could have cataracts removed.

What kind of logic is that?
You equate leaving something as it is (no risk) to removing something someone has (risk)?