10-01-2002 09:48									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai We're talking about a six-year-old child. Do you think this child has the ability to make an informed decision about invasive surgery?

That's not the point and you bloody well know it.

The parents are not restricting their kid's right to hear based on the risks, but rathar they don't want their kid to lose her, "deaf culture."

The kid wants to hear. Let her hear.

How dare anyone take that away from her.

	10-01-2002 09:49									#62
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dissident that doesn't illustrate your point. It just says they are considered dropouts if they leave school. People leave school all the time in my city. They are called dropouts. No one forces them to go to school.

You have to be 16 here to drop out. I assume it's similar in the US.

	10-01-2002 09:54									#63
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Dissident that doesn't illustrate your point. It just says they are considered dropouts if they leave school. People leave school all the time in my city. They are called dropouts. No one forces them to go to school

Ummm....

What do you think "compulsory" means?

Also: "Students may drop out of school if they have reached the age set in their state's law for the end of compulsory schooling, but dropouts are not considered to have completed school and no certificate or award is issued at this stage"

Notice how it specifically mentions that students may only drop out "if they have reached the age set in their state's law for the end of compulsory schooling"?

Whether or not the law is applied vigorously in the backwoods does not affect the fact that it's the law.

	10-01-2002 09:54									#64
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

To bad some of you wheren't born a few generations ago, where mass genocide was commited to promote a pure and perfect race of humans, and where the practice of steralizing the 'handicapped' to prevent reproduction was acceptable - maybe with more people supporting such noble causes we wouldn't be having this discussion, as there would be none of those damned handicapped to worry about!











P.S. Why don't you lot go out and get artificial hearts? I hear that some of them are actually more reliable then the one you are born with.

	10-01-2002 09:55									#65
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker That's not the point and you bloody well know it.

The point is that children lack the mental capacity to make informed decisions about submitting themselves to invasive surgery and that parents are the people that have been traditionally entrusted with that responsibility. You're going to have to meet a high burden before you can override that little bit of freedom and the fact that you simply don't like thier decision doesn't cut it. Histrionics notwithstanding.

quote: How dare anyone take that away from her.

How do you take something away from a person who never had it?

	10-01-2002 09:57									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: P.S. Why don't you lot go out and get artificial hearts? I hear that some of them are actually more reliable then the one you are born with

Actually, not even close.

That's a really stupid argument Ozzie. The last time I checked I wasn't advocating forcing parents to kill their deaf children, nor was I forcing any adult to get a cochlear implant. I'm simply saying that they shouldn't have the right to stop their children from getting such an implant.

	10-01-2002 09:58									#67
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Actually, not even close. That's a really stupid argument Ozzie. The last time I checked I wasn't advocating forcing parents to kill their deaf children, nor was I forcing any adult to get a cochlear implant. I'm simply saying that they shouldn't have the right to stop their children from getting such an implant.

But you do say the beaurocrats in the government will make a more informed decision about a child's welfare?

BTW, Krazy, who will pay the bill for the optional surgery? The tax payers?

	10-01-2002 09:59									#68
	Remove this text

And yes, you must be 16 to drop out of school in Canada - otherwise it's possible that you could be taken to court, put in a phoster home ect... but in most cases they'd have a social worker help the kid out and look for alternatives. (I believe this is the first action in all cases, actually)

	10-01-2002 10:01									#69
	Put an end to popups!

Dissident: actually, it is against the law to not go to school before 16 in the majority of states, as referenced above. Yes, they actually have truancy officers.

IIRC, home schooling most often requires some paperwork as well as regular visits by the authorities. My sister does it in Ohio, so the next time I see her, I'll ask.

Some, like the Amish, have special laws, IIRC. The Amish in my old area of Ohio only attend school through the eighth grade.

	10-01-2002 10:04									#70
	Increase Your PM Length

Not always. I'm not advocating bringing up all babies in government-run creches, you notice. When parents show their unfitness as parents, then the government will probably do a better job.

Who made "bureaucrat" a four-letter word, anyway? Buncha right-wing nutters, that's who. The guvmint in a democracy tends to be pretty responsive to public pressure.

	10-01-2002 10:05									#71
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by DanS Dissident: actually, it is against the law to not go to school before 16 in the majority of states, as referenced above. Yes, they actually have truancy officers. IIRC, home schooling most often requires some paperwork as well as regular visits by the authorities. My sister does it in Ohio, so the next time I see her, I'll ask.

Actually, it's all 50 states + D.C. as the passage I quoted above demonstrates.

	10-01-2002 10:06									#72
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Not always. I'm not advocating bringing up all babies in government-run creches, you notice. When parents show their unfitness as parents, then the government will probably do a better job.

Dear God.
Hitler did something similar.

quote: Who made "bureaucrat" a four-letter word, anyway? Buncha right-wing nutters, that's who. The guvmint in a democracy tends to be pretty responsive to public pressure.

Not if you're from Alberta and lobbying the Federal government. We don't mean anything to them.

	10-01-2002 10:07									#73
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Asher But you do say the beaurocrats in the government will make a more informed decision about a child's welfare? BTW, Krazy, who will pay the bill for the optional surgery? The tax payers?

Cochlears for minors aren't covered by medicare? I'm think they are. Maybe not, but they should be.

	10-01-2002 10:08									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yeh, you're right. I didn't word it correctly. Long story short, the law says you gotta go to school.

	10-01-2002 10:09									#75
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Asher Not if you're from Alberta and lobbying the Federal government. We don't mean anything to them.

That's because you're all right-wing nutters out there, and you can't even run your "protest" parties properly.

*chuckles about Alliance leadership troubles*

	10-01-2002 10:13									#76
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

why do the Amish get special privledges? This is bullsh!t

I really don't think the goverment has the right to force kids to go to school. I had no idea I lived under such an oppressive goverment.

I did look it up under my state. It seems you have to go to school until age 16. I figured some areas are so rural that parents just have their kids work on the ranch, instead of go to school. I suppose they are breaking the law, but it isn't enforced.

	10-01-2002 10:15									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Dissident: how do you know it isn't enforced?

	10-01-2002 10:16									#78
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That's because you're all right-wing nutters out there, and you can't even run your "protest" parties properly. *chuckles about Alliance leadership troubles*

The Alliance is full of nutjobs, in no way do I support them.

I'd REALLY not like the NDP to become federal government, and put in place your government-babysitting crap, KrazyHorse.

Raising kids is up to the parents, not minimum-wage employees working for socialists.

	10-01-2002 10:18									#79
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The point is that children lack the mental capacity to make informed decisions about submitting themselves to invasive surgery and that parents are the people that have been traditionally entrusted with that responsibility. You're going to have to meet a high burden before you can override that little bit of freedom and the fact that you simply don't like thier decision doesn't cut it. Histrionics notwithstanding.

That isn't the point. The parents made their decision because they didn't want their child to lose her deaf culture. What exactly are they trying to prove at the expense of their child's own happiness?

quote: How do you take something away from a person who never had it?

Nice play on words there, but again, the kid wants to hear, the parents are not letting her hear.

Osweld,

Your genocide argument is also bogus, the kid WANTS the implant, nobody would be forcing it on her.

	10-01-2002 10:19									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Dissident why do the Amish get special privledges? This is bullsh!t

They don't get special privileges. Religious groups do, in general, get privileges though. Like I said: "faith-healing" laws are stupid too.

	10-01-2002 10:19									#81
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I say give the kid her implant, but don't give the government the choice over the matter. That's asking for royal screwups.

	10-01-2002 10:20									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Asher I'd REALLY not like the NDP to become federal government, and put in place your government-babysitting crap, KrazyHorse

Unfortunately there's very little chance of that.

	10-01-2002 10:22									#83
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

what Ted is trying to say is the reason they are denying the surgery isn't a good enough reason.

So if they changed their story and said the risks to the child are too great for their tastes, would you be happy?

I admit that deaf culture is a pretty stupid thing to say. They should just say the risks are too great for the reward.

	10-01-2002 10:29									#84
	Full PM-box? Change here!

IIRC, both parents are deaf. Maybe they are afraid that their child won't be able to understand them if she gets an implant or maybe they think she'll be radically different from them. They may also see the implant as a challenge on their life.

People like Striker seem to be saying to the deaf that they do not have a complete life; that the deaf would have a better life with the implant. A lot of deaf people find that insulting.

Those of us who can hear have experience a reality where hearing is vitally important. Reality for the deaf is that hearing is not important. Who is to say who is right.

	10-01-2002 10:43									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai People like Striker seem to be saying to the deaf that they do not have a complete life; that the deaf would have a better life with the implant. A lot of deaf people find that insulting. Those of us who can hear have experience a reality where hearing is vitally important. Reality for the deaf is that hearing is not important. Who is to say who is right.

The kid obviously thinks she would have a better life with the implant or else she wouldn't have asked for it!

And yes, I DO think she would have a better life with the ability to hear, and obviously I am biased because I can hear. That ain't the PC thing to say, but hell, there is a reason we have ears. If she doesn't like it, she can have it removed. But to just completely deny her the opportunity is complete BS.

This whole thing is a crock! It's like denying someone with no legs prothetics because you don't want to ruin their, "wheelchair culture?" Give me a break!!!

Dissident,

If they said the risk was too great, fine, I'd be happy with that.

	10-01-2002 17:26									#86
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Starchild As for deafness somehow limiting a person's life....PPFFFFF. LordStone, who all the old timers should remember, was born deaf. And last I heard from him, he's leading a full life with higher education, a boyfriend, and an active social life. Deafness only limits you if you let it limit you. There's a ton of stuff available, from sign language to implants, to help the deaf adapt.

I can believe you actually think deafness doesnt have to limit someones life! You loose a lot more than the ability to speak by being deaf, you cant listen to music and compose can you?

If they get an implant then they are no longer deaf, but if they dont they are severely limited in life.

	10-01-2002 17:28									#87
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Deaf "culture" Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai It can be the same thing. I have problems understanding people who speak Cantonese. The fact that I can hear what they are saying doesn't make a difference if I don't understand what they say. I am no better off than the deaf person.

So I guess you never listen to music...?

	10-01-2002 17:41									#88
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai People like Striker seem to be saying to the deaf that they do not have a complete life; that the deaf would have a better life with the implant. A lot of deaf people find that insulting. Those of us who can hear have experience a reality where hearing is vitally important. Reality for the deaf is that hearing is not important. Who is to say who is right.

*bangs head against wall*

So by your logic if someone is born without arms or legs then according to their reality it wouldnt be important to them, after all "who can say"..!

	10-01-2002 18:58									#89
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

My two eurocents.

First, I don't think the child's oppinion is really important in the matter. He's a child, unable to understand the magnitude of that decision and too easily influenced. They're not allowed to have sex, vote, smoke and drink for the same reasons. (and wouldn't you say that some of these decisions are way less important then this one?)

Second, I'm with the 'no-go' crowd here. Not healing deafness is like not curing a disease that causes someone to lose his legs or even die (though that is a lot worse) Parents' freedom to do with their children as they think is right stops somewhere. The line must be drawn, and it must be drawn here.

	10-01-2002 20:08									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia *bangs head against wall* So by your logic if someone is born without arms or legs then according to their reality it wouldnt be important to them, after all "who can say"..!

People who are born without an arm or a leg (such as the thalidimide kids) generally say that it doesn't bother them, or words to that effect IIRC. The logic is that they have never experienced having two arms or two legs so they don't know what they are missing. They would say that they don't need two arms. One will do quite fine, thank you.

I know it sounds weird, but that's what they say. Who am I to tell them they are wrong.

Besides, think of it this way. Do you regret the fact that you don't have a third set of arms? Of course not.