11-01-2002 03:41									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Asher What kind of logic is that? You equate leaving something as it is (no risk) to removing something someone has (risk)?

What the **** are you talking about?

	11-01-2002 03:51									#122
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I have no idea. Mis-read that the first time.

And no, I don't see why it'd be any different.

	11-01-2002 03:55									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And no, I don't see why it'd be any different.

So if the parents of a child who was born blind wouldnt get the cataracts removed because the kid might lose their "blind culture" you would be fine with that?

	11-01-2002 03:59									#124
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Please do. The deaf community has done their best to ensure that their growth and development isn't harmed. Deaf people aren't different, they may have some disadvantadges, but those are overcome.

Umm.....Bullshit. There depriving a kid of being normal, cause they didnt have that oppurtunity! Call it what you want. Community, Culture.....its not an advantage...its NOT special! Its a God Damn handicap

The parents are Selfish and ignorant.

	11-01-2002 04:01									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia So if the parents of a child who was born blind wouldnt get the cataracts removed because the kid might lose their "blind culture" you would be fine with that?

I don't give a **** what their reason is, the choice is not up to the government or the kid's neighbors. I think it's more dangerous to society if we start letting the will of society make decisions for us all.

	11-01-2002 04:05									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't give a **** what their reason is, the choice is not up to the government or the kid's neighbors. I think it's more dangerous to society if we start letting the will of society make decisions for us all.

So you dont think there are any moral absolutes....great, lets all just do what we want then because nobody has the right to tell us what to do.

	11-01-2002 04:59									#127
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Why has no one done so much as acknowledged my post?

quote: Originally posted by Osweld I wasn't trying to compare this to genocide, or anything like that. I was trying to make some people realise that they have no right to decide who is 'normal' or 'correct' and who is 'abnormal' or 'flawed'. The point of my sarcasm was to point out the extreme that this attitude has been taken to in the recent past, where genocide was commited and anyone who was deemed to be 'flawed' was steralized to prevent them from reproducing - all in the name of creating a pure, or 'correct' race. Being with out hearing is not a disability to someone who is born that way, to them it is the norm! The only way someone can be handicapped is if they lose something they where born with - and even then it doesn't have to be a handicap, given the right attitude and the willingness to accept thier loss a person can overcome anything... ofcourse, it's alot more difficult when people are constantly demeaning or patronizing you, and telling you that you are less a person then they.

	11-01-2002 05:54									#128
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Osweld:

quote: Being with out hearing is not a disability to someone who is born that way, to them it is the norm! The only way someone can be handicapped is if they lose something they where born with - and even then it doesn't have to be a handicap, given the right attitude and the willingness to accept thier loss a person can overcome anything... ofcourse, it's alot more difficult when people are constantly demeaning or patronizing you, and telling you that you are less a person then they.

So??? What you have said is that deaf people find their condition perfectly normal, as long as they have the right mental attitude. However, deafness is still a handicap compared to normal hearing! If a person is deaf, he/she will be limited in many aspects of life. There is no way that can be denied.

To deaf people, of course deafness is the norm. But no matter what the norm is, you can't argue that hearing is a handicap when compared to deafness! A deaf person is faced with social disadvantages when compared to a hearing person.

Thus, the child should be given the ability to hear. No matter what standards you have, hearing is more advantageous than deafness. Hearing gives a fuller and more interesting life experience. This cannot be denied.

Finally, no one said that 'a deaf person is less of a person'. That is a very prejudiced statement and has nothing to do with this debate.

	11-01-2002 06:21									#129
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Osweld: So??? What you have said is that deaf people find their condition perfectly normal, as long as they have the right mental attitude. However, deafness is still a handicap compared to normal hearing! If a person is deaf, he/she will be limited in many aspects of life. There is no way that can be denied.

Just as you are limited by not having the ability to fly.

quote: To deaf people, of course deafness is the norm. But no matter what the norm is, you can't argue that hearing is a handicap when compared to deafness!

I didn't say it was - I thought it was pretty clear that I have the 'there are no handicaps' stance.

quote: No matter what standards you have, hearing is more advantageous than deafness. Hearing gives a fuller and more interesting life experience. This cannot be denied.

It doesn't give a 'fuller and more interesting life experience', merely a different one.

quote: Finally, no one said that 'a deaf person is less of a person'. That is a very prejudiced statement and has nothing to do with this debate.

Perhaps no one has used the those exact words - but I get that message from alot of posts in this thread.

	11-01-2002 06:29									#130
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Ability to fly = something that NOBODY has
Hearing = Something that almost all humans possess

	11-01-2002 06:32									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Just as you are limited by not having the ability to fly.

False analogy. People can't fly. Most people, however, can hear. Thus being deaf is a social disadvantage.
Anyway, if I were given a relatively safe choice of installing wings on my back i'd go for it immediately. No more taking the elevator! I'll fly straight to my window!

quote: It doesn't give a 'fuller and more interesting life experience', merely a different one.

Being able to hear music, listen to the radio, watch TV and movies without captions and with sound effects, being able to hear speeches and watch plays instead of merely reading them, and being able to converse with a much larger slice of the world population... of course, being able to hear the drizzle of the rain, the rustling of the wind, birdsong, a dog's bark, the chugging along of a train, and a ship leaving port,....
mmm if that isn't a fuller life experience i don't know what is.

quote: Perhaps no one has used the those exact words - but I get that message from alot of posts in this thread.

a deaf person isn't less of a person... he/she just gets a bit less out of life... on average. Of course, with determination and a positive attitude a deaf person will still enjoy life a lot, but with the same attitude a hearing person will be able to enjoy more.

	11-01-2002 06:54									#132
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Being able to hear music, listen to the radio, watch TV and movies without captions and with sound effects, being able to hear speeches and watch plays instead of merely reading them, and being able to converse with a much larger slice of the world population... of course, being able to hear the drizzle of the rain, the rustling of the wind, birdsong, a dog's bark, the chugging along of a train, and a ship leaving port,.... mmm if that isn't a fuller life experience i don't know what is.

On the flip side, a deaf person is never bothered by: the screaming kid during a 12-hour flight, the dog barking all through the night, the couple fighting in the next door hotel room, political speeches, dripping water tap, the constant din of urban noise, taxi drivers who are experts on everything, and that stupid song that you really hate but can't get out of your head.

	11-01-2002 06:58									#133
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan False analogy. People can't fly.

And people born deaf can't hear.

quote: Being able to hear music, listen to the radio, watch TV and movies without captions and with sound effects, being able to hear speeches and watch plays instead of merely reading them, and being able to converse with a much larger slice of the world population... of course, being able to hear the drizzle of the rain, the rustling of the wind, birdsong, a dog's bark, the chugging along of a train, and a ship leaving port,.... mmm if that isn't a fuller life experience i don't know what is.

Of course you don't - you've only experienced one life. I wouldn't expect a person who's tried a single type of wine to be able to tell me the best in the world - if it's even possible to make a decision amongst all the different kinds, that is.

quote: a deaf person isn't less of a person

You're right there.

quote: ... he/she just gets a bit less out of life... on average. Of course, with determination and a positive attitude a deaf person will still enjoy life a lot, but with the same attitude a hearing person will be able to enjoy more.

And wrong here.

A deaf person does not get less out of life - someone who grew up with hearing and lost it later in life might, but not someone who was born deaf.

Again - one could say that you get less out of life without being able to fly, but who the hell cares? You don't live your life regreting that you where not born a bird, do you? (of course - there is a plethora of other things you'd be missing out on, which being a bird wouldn't fix... if you want to get technical)

	11-01-2002 08:48									#134
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Caligastia, I often have problems with other peoples decisions, but that doesn't mean I can tell them what to do, even if I try.

Right, but there is a helpless individual involved here. We already decide that certain normative standards need to be followed in raising your children, since they aren't your property. This is simply another example of this. If the parents don't want cochlear implants then I would never think about trying to force them. They don't have the same unlimited rights over their child's welfare that they have over their own.

	11-01-2002 09:27									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld And people born deaf can't hear.

Exactly. They lose out because the rest of society can.

quote: Of course you don't - you've only experienced one life. I wouldn't expect a person who's tried a single type of wine to be able to tell me the best in the world - if it's even possible to make a decision amongst all the different kinds, that is.

Being able to taste and distinguish wine certainly is a fuller life experience. The only reason i won't do so is because i don't have the time... but hearing doesn't require time, it goes on all the time, so why not gain the ability?

quote: A deaf person does not get less out of life - someone who grew up with hearing and lost it later in life might, but not someone who was born deaf.

Of course a deaf person does, as compared to a hearing person. Note I use the word 'compared'.
Thus if a deaf child could gain hearing, he/she should. Right now.

quote: - one could say that you get less out of life without being able to fly, but who the hell cares? You don't live your life regreting that you where not born a bird, do you? (of course - there is a plethora of other things you'd be missing out on, which being a bird wouldn't fix... if you want to get technical)

I don't... but i would actually prefer it if i could retain my human abilities and have a pair of wings attached. How convenient and fun would that be!

	11-01-2002 09:33									#136
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"And people born deaf can't hear."

Right, but since nobody can fly, you can fit in perfectly well with society perfectly without being able to fly. The same isn't true about hearing.

I can't believe people are seriously making the argument that it is not a disadvantage to be unable to hear. Next to sight it is the most important sense. Just think of all the things you couldn't do in your daily life if you couldn't hear.

	11-01-2002 09:35									#137
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No one should be forced to have the implant against their will, even if they are a child. It's not as if the child would be refusing a life-saving procedure. Deaf people can succeed quite well in the world, although they don't get to experience it in as many dimensions as non-deaf people.

If the child actually wants the implant, then the parents have no right to insist otherwise. Again, it's not as if the child is undergoing some form of self-mutilation; it's just the opposite. The "deaf culture" argument may have some value, but not when contrasted with the "non-deaf culture" of sounds, music, the spoken word, and all those things.

Here's a question: do we know of anyone who, having once had the ability to hear and then losing it, would refuse this procedure?

	11-01-2002 09:58									#138
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ranskaldan, do you really not understand what I'm saying, or are you purposely misinterpreting it?



Not only do you just not get my points or metaphors, I am not, nor have I ever been, arguing about the kid. Aside from my initial post on the first page, I have never even mentioned him. I thought I made it pretty clear what my peeve was: people who can't grasp the concept of someone being diffrent and still being every bit as human, and just as capable of living life as anyone else.

quote: I can't believe people are seriously making the argument that it is not a disadvantage to be unable to hear. Next to sight it is the most important sense.

Provided you have it, of course - if you don't, it obviously is not very important.

quote: Right, but since nobody can fly, you can fit in perfectly well with society perfectly without being able to fly. The same isn't true about hearing.

I think you nailed it on the head there, a person is only as disabled as the people around them make them out to be.

	11-01-2002 10:35									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Not only do you just not get my points or metaphors, I am not, nor have I ever been, arguing about the kid. Aside from my initial post on the first page, I have never even mentioned him. I thought I made it pretty clear what my peeve was: people who can't grasp the concept of someone being diffrent and still being every bit as human, and just as capable of living life as anyone else.

Grrr... you don't exactly seem to get what I'm saying either.

what i didn't say:
"people are different and therefore aren't as human...."
... Deafness, unlike race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc. is a handicap.
what i did say:
"people with handicaps can't enjoy certain aspects of life."
... which, incidentally, is why glasses, hearing aids, cranes, wheelchairs, and other such implements exist. We acknowledge the existence of impairments and handicaps, then we seek to correct them. We don't deny their existence and argue that people with these handicaps can still live and breathe, thus they don't need to be helped.

do you see that there is a world of difference between these two statements?

quote: Provided you have it, of course - if you don't, it obviously is not very important.

this begs the question.... SO???
Not once did you ever refute the argument that deafness is a handicap and inhibits a person from enjoying certain major aspects of life.
A deaf person might not realize it... but it remains the truth.

	11-01-2002 10:53									#140
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You know, the parents have the right to do whatever they see fit with this child. If they don't want to feed or shelter it, they have every right to.

After all, a six year old isn't smart enough yet to make an informed decision! Just becase a 6 year old demands things like oh, food, water, or shelter, doesn't mean the parents should automatically give it to them!

And as far as the state intervening, in the US we have this thing setup called CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES, as a safeguard for negligent parents.

The state and courts not only has the right to intervene in parents' decisions, it HAS BEEN DOING SO for a very long time.

A kid that wants to hear should have every right to it. Anything otherwise should be considered abuse. A parent forcing a handicap on their kid? Sounds like abuse to me.

That kid is going to be one angry kid.

Way to go, Worst Parents of the Year.

	11-01-2002 10:56									#141
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actually I think maybe this should go before the courts

but legaly, I don't know of anything that says that is wrong

Jon Miller

	11-01-2002 11:02									#142
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I agree, the courts is the place to go.

Where the hell is Johnnie Cochran when you need him?!?

	11-01-2002 11:05									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I agree, the courts is the place to go. Where the hell is Johnnie Cochran when you need him?!?

well its not clear from anything I have read about

if that is the case then supreme court

Jon Miller

	11-01-2002 12:03									#144
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"I think you nailed it on the head there, a person is only as disabled as the people around them make them out to be."

Good job missing my entire point. I was point out why flying/hearing is not a good example. To clarify:

If we all could fly, it would doubtlessly be a burden for those who cannot, in ways we can scarcely imagine. If nobody could hear, there might be ways around things, such as everyone would communicate via written word, for instance. But everything is based on the assumption you can hear. Without being able to hear car horns and other vehicle noises, you would be in danger. Since most people do not know sign language, you can't communicate well with eithers. You couldn't be in a normal classroom if you can't hear, becuase teachers lecture. Your working abilities would be limited because speaking is an important method of communication there- you would have problems in meetings when people speak. There isn't always going to be someone with a telepromter voicing out words. You would have a more limited pool of friends because you could only effectivley communicte with people who know sign language. You could not listen to music.

Whether or not you ever had the ability to hear in the first place, deafness is a disability that severely limits you.

	11-01-2002 12:03									#145
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damn evil parents....

	11-01-2002 12:27									#146
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I can't believe some of you are getting so upset over this.

Fact: the implant can be installed at any time and at any age. When the kid is older, he/she can make an informed decision.

So the child is not being placed in a situation were he/she will be permanently denied the chance of having a implant.

Fact: the implant does not provide perfect hearing. PBS site states: "They will not hear and understand speech the way a hearing person does."

IIRC, deaf people can understand music. I believe that they can "feel" it.

And for those of you who angrily attack deaf culture, do you know what you are talking about? Can you explain deaf culture and what it is you hate about it?

	11-01-2002 12:36									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi But everything is based on the assumption you can hear. Without being able to hear car horns and other vehicle noises, you would be in danger.

And yet the deaf people can live quite safely in the "normal" world. They need to be much more aware of their surroundings, but that could be seen as a good thing. It's much better than "normal" people who walk around oblivious to the world.

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Since most people do not know sign language, you can't communicate well with eithers. You couldn't be in a normal classroom if you can't hear, becuase teachers lecture.

Just because a person is deaf doesn't mean they can't speak. As well, deaf people can read lips so they are quite capable of attending a lecture.

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi You would have a more limited pool of friends because you could only effectivley communicte with people who know sign language.

And most people go through life with a limited pool of friends who speak the same language.

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Whether or not you ever had the ability to hear in the first place, deafness is a disability that severely limits you.

Sure it is a disability, but not a severe one. A deaf person faces far fewer problems then someone who is blind, or confined to a wheelchair, mentally disabled, or unable to speak.

	11-01-2002 14:42									#148
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I think the parents are wrong to not let the child get the implant; nevertheless, it is their right to do so. It is the child's right to get the implant when she is mature, and to heap tons tons of guilt on them for not allowing her to do it earlier.

Can people live more or less 'fuller' lives than others? Absolutely. The argument that those who never had a particular ability and so can't miss it dosen't enter into the equation. If I had wings, or telepathy, or the smelling ability of your average canine in addition to what i already possess, I have no doubt it would make my life richer and "fuller". I can say this without ever having had any of these abilities, because I know they grant me access to new worlds of experience.

I don't have a problem with "deaf culture", but I do have a problem with those who will limit an individual's ability to interact with "outsiders" because they may abandon their culture. I have a similar problem with social workers who block adoptions of African-American children by white parents because "they will be cut off from black culture". It seems to me that a culture should be able to stand on its own merits, and if it requires artificial props, perhaps there isn't much of value in it.

	11-01-2002 14:47									#149
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One aspect of this that hasn't been mentioned yet: the cost of the special tuition and other help that this child will need.

The advocates of "deaf culture" should be made to pay for it.

Abolish all special provision for the deaf (except those who can't benefit from a cochlear implant). No sign language tutors and so forth. If the "deaf culture" people want these things, they must organize and pay for them themselves. It is immoral to expect taxpayers to support those who choose to live like this.

Though this kid didn't choose deafness. A six-year-old IS responsible enough to make this choice. Screw the parents.

	11-01-2002 17:10									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless One aspect of this that hasn't been mentioned yet: the cost of the special tuition and other help that this child will need. The advocates of "deaf culture" should be made to pay for it. Abolish all special provision for the deaf (except those who can't benefit from a cochlear implant). No sign language tutors and so forth. If the "deaf culture" people want these things, they must organize and pay for them themselves. It is immoral to expect taxpayers to support those who choose to live like this. Though this kid didn't choose deafness. A six-year-old IS responsible enough to make this choice. Screw the parents.

According to PBS, after an implant is put in the person still needs extensive special tuition and other help.