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ranskaldan
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Beijing ~ Singapore ~ Toronto ~ All hail to the new Rome
Sep 2001
time: 00:17
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Mmmm.... so many new points over the past one day.
POINT: Deaf or handicapped people can still enjoy life if they pay attention, as compared to a normal people who is oblivious to the world around them. For example, a cripple who participates in the Paralympics gets more out of life than a couch potato with working legs.
Rebuttal: This is not a fair comparison. You are comparing a handicapped person who is working hard and a normal person who is oblivious and lazy.
If you compare a deaf person working hard in life and a normal person doing the same thing, the normal person will enjoy life more.
POINT: The deaf person can still get the implant later.
Rebuttal: The ages of 1-7 are crucial to linguistic development. A little kid can pick up a language in 2 years with little effort, an adult takes many years of study.
Thus, if the deaf child doesn't get the implant, she will learn to write, read, and maybe speak English, but not listen to it. Once she passes the crucial age, it will be very hard to learn to do so. It'll be as if she is permanently stuck as a tourist in a foreign land, trying to understand road directions. Inhumane, I should say.
POINT: After the implant, intensive tuition and help will still be needed.
Rebuttal: So? The child will still be better off than if she is totally deaf.
POINT: So what if the deaf only has friends who can speak Sign Language? We only have friends who can speak our languages.
Rebuttal: We live in countries where the entire population can speak the same language as we do. Deaf people, however, are stuck as a minority. We can choose from 99% of the population of our countries. The deaf choose from 1%, or less. Thus, the friends pool of the deaf is still much more limited than that of a hearing person.
POINT: Deafness isn't as serious as blindness etc.
Just because it isn't as serious doesn't mean we shouldn't correct it. Deafness is still very serious. It severely limits the person. Imagine that you can't hear a single sound, ever. No music, no car horns, no sound effects, no speech. Are you saying that is not limiting???
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:17
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deleted
Last edited by Tingkai on 13-01-2002 at 15:39
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November Adam
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Calgary, AB, Canada
Jul 2001
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by ranskaldan
Mmmm.... so many new points over the past one day.
POINT: Deaf or handicapped people can still enjoy life if they pay attention, as compared to a normal people who is oblivious to the world around them. For example, a cripple who participates in the Paralympics gets more out of life than a couch potato with working legs.
Rebuttal: This is not a fair comparison. You are comparing a handicapped person who is working hard and a normal person who is oblivious and lazy.
If you compare a deaf person working hard in life and a normal person doing the same thing, the normal person will enjoy life more.
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Counter: One cannot determine who will enjoy life more, and its offensive to think that. How can you quantify this statement? It's just pure specualtion.
quote:
POINT: The deaf person can still get the implant later.
Rebuttal: The ages of 1-7 are crucial to linguistic development. A little kid can pick up a language in 2 years with little effort, an adult takes many years of study.
Thus, if the deaf child doesn't get the implant, she will learn to write, read, and maybe speak English, but not listen to it. Once she passes the crucial age, it will be very hard to learn to do so. It'll be as if she is permanently stuck as a tourist in a foreign land, trying to understand road directions. Inhumane, I should say.
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Counter: Anyone when immersed in an environment can learn, and hardly be stuck permanently. Also for a child to learn a language the people around them have to be using it as well. Both of her parents don't.
quote:
POINT: After the implant, intensive tuition and help will still be needed.
Rebuttal: So? The child will still be better off than if she is totally deaf.
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Counter: This previous point was a counter to the financial strain a child who is deaf would put on the education system. It was showing that there would still be financial obligations. Your rebutal doesn't deal with that.
quote:
POINT: So what if the deaf only has friends who can speak Sign Language? We only have friends who can speak our languages.
Rebuttal: We live in countries where the entire population can speak the same language as we do. Deaf people, however, are stuck as a minority. We can choose from 99% of the population of our countries. The deaf choose from 1%, or less. Thus, the friends pool of the deaf is still much more limited than that of a hearing person.
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Counter: How many friends do you have? I only have 4 or 5. People tend to gravitate to others with similar intrests, and language abilities. Thus the deaf person would locate others with this particular disability. Besides a deaf person can still use Apolyton, and that's all that you need in life!
quote:
POINT: Deafness isn't as serious as blindness etc.
Just because it isn't as serious doesn't mean we shouldn't correct it. Deafness is still very serious. It severely limits the person. Imagine that you can't hear a single sound, ever. No music, no car horns, no sound effects, no speech. Are you saying that is not limiting??? |
Counter: Most of the limitations that a deaf person would face, would be the ones that others put on them. Not being able to listen to music, or sound effects, are hardly limitations. Regarding communication, if you can read, and write then you can communicate with a deaf person. Sure its not as simple as speaking, and hearing, but the communication barrier would be with yourself (not you personally). Deaf people have to be more alert to their surroundings. How is this a severe limitation?
Also regarding your statement to DinoDoc
quote:
Of course deaf people can sense vibrations...
but hear music with the same clarity as hearing people??????
That article doesn't say that. No one says that.
I think it's heartless to say.... deaf people can still hear music, thus we don't need to give them hearing! |
He never said this, nor implied it. What he is saying is that we can't force our beliefs on other people. Regarding the music he was showing that deaf people can enjoy it. It is just a different enjoyment.
I would like to see the eradication of the disability known as deafness, as well as other disabilities. Yet at the same time you can not criticize a groups way of dealing with it. If deaf people want to have a culture, then let them.
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ranskaldan
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Beijing ~ Singapore ~ Toronto ~ All hail to the new Rome
Sep 2001
time: 00:17
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Well, i see someone who's willing to really debate, instead of call others brick walls. Thank you November Adam.
now.....
quote:
Originally posted by November Adam
Counter: One cannot determine who will enjoy life more, and its offensive to think that. How can you quantify this statement? It's just pure specualtion. |
As I have said, deaf people are barred from enjoying an entire sense of all the beauty, art, and sentiments that sounds could bring.
quote:
Counter: Anyone when immersed in an environment can learn, and hardly be stuck permanently. Also for a child to learn a language the people around them have to be using it as well. Both of her parents don't. |
Not for language. Language really is dependent on age. The younger someone is, the faster he/she can pick up a language. This has been proven.
http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rb...cquisition.html
there's an example where a 13-year-old girl was discovered to never have learnt speech. Even with instruction, she never advanced beyond basic constructions.
The deaf child can go to school, where everyone is speaking English. I don't see why it's so hard.
quote:
Counter: This previous point was a counter to the financial strain a child who is deaf would put on the education system. It was showing that there would still be financial obligations. Your rebutal doesn't deal with that. |
ok.... but even this is no reason to deny the child the ability to hear.
quote:
Counter: How many friends do you have? I only have 4 or 5. People tend to gravitate to others with similar intrests, and language abilities. Thus the deaf person would locate others with this particular disability. Besides a deaf person can still use Apolyton, and that's all that you need in life! |
yes, but don't you think it's not right to LIMIT the deaf person's choice to 0.1% of the population?
quote:
Counter: Most of the limitations that a deaf person would face, would be the ones that others put on them. Not being able to listen to music, or sound effects, are hardly limitations. Regarding communication, if you can read, and write then you can communicate with a deaf person. Sure its not as simple as speaking, and hearing, but the communication barrier would be with yourself (not you personally). Deaf people have to be more alert to their surroundings. How is this a severe limitation? |
Oh cmon, are you seriously saying that not being able to hear speech or car honks isn't a limitation?
Also, not being able to listen to music etc are limitations on the capacity to enjoy life.
quote:
He never said this, nor implied it. What he is saying is that we can't force our beliefs on other people. Regarding the music he was showing that deaf people can enjoy it. It is just a different enjoyment. |
ok.... and i might hasten to add, a limited enjoyment. the Reason? music was designed for the hearing ear. I would doubt that a deaf person would be able to tell a C from a C#, or a clarinet from a bassoon, just from vibrations. Yet that's where the beauty of music lies. Subtle differences.
quote:
I would like to see the eradication of the disability known as deafness, as well as other disabilities. Yet at the same time you can not criticize a groups way of dealing with it. If deaf people want to have a culture, then let them. |
but the child in question doesn't want this culture. it's being forced onto her.
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November Adam
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Calgary, AB, Canada
Jul 2001
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by ranskaldan
Well, i see someone who's willing to really debate, instead of call others brick walls. Thank you November Adam.
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No problem.. ya brick wall 
quote:
As I have said, deaf people are barred from enjoying an entire sense of all the beauty, art, and sentiments that sounds could bring.
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This is true, but on the other hand people whom are deaf will experience sound in a truly different manner. If sound is just vibrations as pointed out before. Then there sense of touch could be heightend and they could experience music by vibration alone. Especially if some talented individual where to create music for its vibrations alone.
quote:
Not for language. Language really is dependent on age. The younger someone is, the faster he/she can pick up a language. This has been proven.
http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rb...cquisition.html
there's an example where a 13-year-old girl was discovered to never have learnt speech. Even with instruction, she never advanced beyond basic constructions.
The deaf child can go to school, where everyone is speaking English. I don't see why it's so hard. |
Children go to school by age 5, they have missed the majority of there language building years by this point.
quote:
yes, but don't you think it's not right to LIMIT the deaf person's choice to 0.1% of the population? |
This happens more often then one would like to care about for more than just people with disabilities.
quote:
Oh cmon, are you seriously saying that not being able to hear speech or car honks isn't a limitation?
Also, not being able to listen to music etc are limitations on the capacity to enjoy life. |
I'm saying the only limitations you have for enjoying life are the ones you and others put on them. There are many other facets in life besides the ones derived from sound. Say a person is a total clutz, are they missing out in life because they can't play sports?
quote:
ok.... and i might hasten to add, a limited enjoyment. the Reason? music was designed for the hearing ear. I would doubt that a deaf person would be able to tell a C from a C#, or a clarinet from a bassoon, just from vibrations. Yet that's where the beauty of music lies. Subtle differences. |
see above.
quote:
but the child in question doesn't want this culture. it's being forced onto her. |
If one accepts that the deaf can have a culture (they have their own language, art, and way of life). Then one has to accept the choices the parents make.
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ranskaldan
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Beijing ~ Singapore ~ Toronto ~ All hail to the new Rome
Sep 2001
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by November Adam
No problem.. ya brick wall |
no fair!
I refuse to argue with you any longer!
quote:
This is true, but on the other hand people whom are deaf will experience sound in a truly different manner. If sound is just vibrations as pointed out before. Then there sense of touch could be heightend and they could experience music by vibration alone. Especially if some talented individual where to create music for its vibrations alone. |
yes.... but currently music isn't created for that. Today's music is created for, as i said before, subtle variations, like that between a bassoon and a clarinet, or between a C and a C#. It would be extraordinarily hard for any human to tell the difference thru vibrations, let alone appreciate these differences in vibration.
quote:
Children go to school by age 5, they have missed the majority of there language building years by this point. |
yes.... but, take me as an example
I learnt English in school. Today I function by it. Yet, the only environment in English I had was school. No one in my family speaks English that well.
The point being, school can be a very good language learning environment.
quote:
This happens more often then one would like to care about for more than just people with disabilities. |
yes.... i know there are loners around. But deaf person are forced to be more "lonerish" because of limited choice, whether they are really loners or not. That's cruel.
quote:
I'm saying the only limitations you have for enjoying life are the ones you and others put on them. There are many other facets in life besides the ones derived from sound. Say a person is a total clutz, are they missing out in life because they can't play sports? |
actually yes.
see above.
quote:
If one accepts that the deaf can have a culture (they have their own language, art, and way of life). Then one has to accept the choices the parents make. |
No, I disagree. You can agree to people making choices for themselves... but forcing these radical decisions on unwilling children and banishing them to a life of deafness is waaaay overboard.
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November Adam
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Calgary, AB, Canada
Jul 2001
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by ranskaldan
no fair!
I refuse to argue with you any longer!
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okay I win!
quote:
yes.... but currently music isn't created for that. Today's music is created for, as i said before, subtle variations, like that between a bassoon and a clarinet, or between a C and a C#. It would be extraordinarily hard for any human to tell the difference thru vibrations, let alone appreciate these differences in vibration.
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Give it time...
quote:
yes.... but, take me as an example
I learnt English in school. Today I function by it. Yet, the only environment in English I had was school. No one in my family speaks English that well.
The point being, school can be a very good language learning environment. |
Ya your probably right about this one.
quote:
yes.... i know there are loners around. But deaf person are forced to be more "lonerish" because of limited choice, whether they are really loners or not. That's cruel.
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Then maybe we should teach children how to communicate with ASL as well? It wouldn't be that hard, and I think kids would like it.
My wife doesn't think so... she says life is just fine without sports.
I don't see anything? 
quote:
No, I disagree. You can agree to people making choices for themselves... but forcing these radical decisions on unwilling children and banishing them to a life of deafness is waaaay overboard. |
If JW are allowed to prevent their children from having a blood transfusion, which is potentially life threatening, then this should be allowed, which isn't life threatening. (Kinda makes me sick to say this though)
I think I just have a problem with the government strong arming their way into this sort of situation.
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November Adam
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Calgary, AB, Canada
Jul 2001
time: 22:17
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Thanks DinoDoc.
Here's a poem I found on a website Dino informed me about.
"They Say I'm Deaf", written by a Deaf person, Saul Kessler which reflects the sentiments of millions of Deaf persons all over the world.
They Say I'm Deaf
They say I'm deaf,
These folks who call me friend.
They do not comprehend.
They say I'm deaf,
And look on me as queer,
Because I cannot hear.
They say I'm deaf,
I, who hear all day
My throbbing heart at play,
The song the sunset sings,
The joy of pretty things.
The smiles that greet my eye,
Two lovers passing by,
A brook, a tree, a bird;
Who says I have not heard?
Aye, tho' it must seem odd,
At night I oft hear God.
So many kinds, I get,
Of happy songs, and yet
They say I'm deaf!
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:17
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quote:
Originally posted by ranskaldan
i've just stepped back and taken a look at this debate...
we have a faction championing the rights of the deaf to hear again
we have another faction championing the rights of the deaf to enjoy life
i don't exactly see the existence of any conflicts between these two
but oh well. |
The debate has largely been on the question of whether it is wrong for a parent to decide against having an implant put into their deaf child. One side says being deaf is a terrible handicap, parents are evil if they say no to an implant and that the government should intervene. The other side argues that a deaf person can enjoy a great life, that parents have a right to decide, and that the government should not intervene.
Quite a difference of opinion.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:17
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quote:
Originally posted by November Adam
So did anyone read the link?
Pretty interesting about the fact that so much energy is spent trying to make the child learn to speak and hear that they don't have as much of a chance to learn to read and write.
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Just read the link. It was quite interesting, particularly the part about how people view deafness. Reminds me of Hong Kong where there is a society for the deaf (people who can hear helping those who cannot) and a society of the deaf (people who are deaf helping others like themselves).
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11-01-2002 17:42
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