15-01-2002 00:42									#1
	AI shenanigans and strategies to counter them Put an end to popups!

It might be useful to have a thread devoted to AI cheats that are discovered by players, along with strategies developed to counter unfair AI play.

I will kick it off with a good example from my latest game, in which I discovered a subtle way that the AI cheats in order to deprive the human player of available strategic resources.

I was playing an OCC game on a tiny map, where strategic resources are scarce, so when I discovered Rocketry first, it was important to see where the aluminum was. I had none within my borders, which was likely, and no surprise. There were 3 AI: the Romans who had 1 aluminum, the Egyptians who had 2, and the Americans who had none (actually they had an inaccessible source on a tiny islet they controlled).

It would seem that the Egyptians had an extra aluminum I could trade for, so I checked with my Trade Advisor using F2, and sure enough, aluminum appeared as a tradable item. So I opened the diplomatic window with the Egyptians to trade for their extra aluminum, and was surprised to see that they no longer had an extra copy. So I exited and checked the trade advisor again with F2, and the aluminum that had been there a moment ago was gone. Mind you, this extra aluminum disappeared during MY turn, and after doing some investigation, I discovered that it had been traded to the Americans the moment I decided to contact the Egyptians.

I’ve attached a save of the game for those who would like to see and verify this AI cheat for themselves. Load it and try the following:

1. Check the Trade Advisor with F2. Also use espionage to investigate the Egyptian and American capitols. Doing this will verify that the Egyptians have an extra aluminum and that the Americans have none.

2. Now open a diplomatic session with either the Egyptians or the Americans. Both will display aluminum(0) under Resources.

3. Repeat step 1 above to verify that the AI have made this cheating trade during the human player’s turn.

There is a way to counter this devious AI cheat. The attached save was made the turn after I had traded the Rocketry tech to each of the AI, so what I did in my actual game was reload the previous turn, to restore the situation as it was before these trades. This time, I traded Rocketry to the Egyptians and Romans, but held it back from the Americans, who lacked aluminum. On the following turn, Egypt showed an extra aluminum, and this time I was able to trade for it in the normal manner. Once I had aluminum it was safe to sell the Rocketry tech to the Americans, but I still had to be very careful for the rest of the game to renegotiate with the Egyptians every 20 turns to renew my supply of this vital commodity.

Anyone else have examples of AI cheats or suspected cheats that they would like to share?

Attachment: ai_cheat.zip
This has been downloaded 264 time(s).

Last edited by solo on 18-01-2002 at 22:17

	15-01-2002 01:14									#2
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You always have to be carefull in what you give to who.
When you trade techs, and you are planning to trade them to multiple AI's, you have to trade it to the one that has most tech first, so that other dont have anything to offer him for it. Otherwise they will trade it on to others before you have a chance to speak to another civ.

	15-01-2002 01:30									#3
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I have heard something about this (and have had it happen to me with tech trading). Supposedly, it is activated by using autosave to load the game. Why that is, I don't know. All I do know is that I've had a couple of instances where I go to trade a tech to everyone, and the second I trade it to one, everyone else has it - on my turn! It's a bug in the 1.16 patch. Normally, I don't run into this problem, so I think the autosave thing (something I use very rarely) makes sense.

-Arrian

	15-01-2002 03:05									#4
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Arrian,

Could be you are right about autosave, which was on during that game. Without it on, I could not have reloaded the previous turn in order to alter the tech trades. It might have been that the original problem was caused by reloading and playing from an autosave earlier on during that game session, as I will reload from an autosave to correct dumb mistakes such as letting a city fall into revolt when this could have been easily prevented. I will try the next few games with autosave turned off and will purposely give the AI cheat described above chances to repeat itself.

	15-01-2002 03:42									#5
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This would explain why I have not seen this bug. I don't think I have ever loaded up a game from an autosaved file.

	15-01-2002 04:23									#6
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I've seen it with the patch as well. I've also seen communications traded by AIs during my turn. I did not need to revert from a saved game to see this though. I wonder if it one of those bugs that only happens after a buffer overflows or something, that is, well into the game. Has anyone noticed it in the very beginning? Duh, I guess not since the AIs haven't found each other yet!

	15-01-2002 06:27									#7
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Well, if it is a problem with the autosave, you could consider it a kind of poetic justice. The AI waits for the human to start cheating -- using the autosave to correct 'mistakes' -- before doing it's own cheating.

	15-01-2002 06:28									#8
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I can't be positive, but it looks to me that the other Civs don't have the tile restriction on irrigation/mines that I do in Despotism. I had just set up an Embassy with the Roamns and had a look around. I'm pretty sure he hadn't switched to Monarchy, though I'm not absolutely certain, but he was gettting full production from his tiles.

	15-01-2002 22:17									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Willem I can't be positive, but it looks to me that the other Civs don't have the tile restriction on irrigation/mines that I do in Despotism. I had just set up an Embassy with the Romans and had a look around. I'm pretty sure he hadn't switched to Monarchy, though I'm not absolutely certain, but he was gettting full production from his tiles.

What you see is the production YOU would get from the tile. This simply means that YOU are out of despotism. There is no way to see what the 'AI' gets out of a tile.

	15-01-2002 22:23									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Didymus What you see is the production YOU would get from the tile. This simply means that YOU are out of despotism. There is no way to see what the 'AI' gets out of a tile.

But I wasn't out of Despotism. I just saw what he was producing when I established an embassy, and had a chance to look around for a moment.

	15-01-2002 22:40									#11
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The only thing I can think of is that the AI city was celebrating "We Love the ___ Day." As I understand it, WLT*D has Civ II-type effects under despotism and monarchy, and maybe communism (I investigated London while Liz was running a monarchy, and it was celebrating. It was getting the republic/demo trade bonus on its tiles. Later, I cut off a luxury I was selling them, and it dropped out of WLTKD, and the trade dropped back to normal monarchy levels). WLTKD lowers waste under republic & demo, but improves tile output under the other governments. I think.

RPMisCOOL - Maybe it is something like a buffer (I confess to having no idea what a buffer actually is or does), not the autosave. I can think of 2 times I've used the autosave, but I've noticed the bug in games where I haven't touched it.

-Arrian

	16-01-2002 00:09									#12
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When you investigate a city you can see right?

Also, you don't have to be in doubt about their government, you can see it as well when you open the embasy and look at his capital.

	16-01-2002 00:55									#13
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I tried the WLT*D under monarchy, and didn't get the rep/dem terade bonus. Maybe it's something that only the AI gets.

	16-01-2002 01:58									#14
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Really? Hmm. Now I'm gonna have to try it. You did wait a turn while in WLTKD for the bonus to kick in, right?

Well, it is possible that, in my example, the English happened to be in a golden age (though I don't recall any shield bonus in London) when I first investigated, and it was over after the trade deal fell through. The reason they were a monarchy was that they had been fighting a long, nasty war against the Aztecs. I wonder if a Man-o-War took out an Aztec ship toward the end of that war...hmm. Anyway, I'm sorry if I was wrong.

-Arrian

	17-01-2002 00:52									#15
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To test the effect of autosave, I loaded a named save (at 1260 AD) I had made in the game featured in the first post. Then I turned off the autosave option, and replayed the game until the turn right after my discovery of Rocketry. At this time no_auto.sav was created and is attached here. Anyone can load it and follow the steps below, which should verify that the AI trade during the player's turn occurs, even when autosave is disabled:

1) Trade Rocketry to the Egyptians
2) Go to the next turn, 1315 AD, and check with F2, to see if aluminum is available for trade. It is.
3) Now trade Rocketry to the Americans. Right after the trade, you can verify that aluminum was traded from Egypt to America, during the player's turn.

Now reload the save and repeat steps 1) and 2) above, but before trading Rocketry to the Americans, trade for the Egyptian's extra aluminum. If you play in this sequence there is no need to reload the game from any save, let alone an autosave, in order to avoid the AI cheat.

Those who classify reloads from autosaves as cheats are entitled to their opinion, but what about games that are just continued from autosaves or games that are resumed from an autosave after a power failure or a situation where the game hangs up? There is no way to justify the introduction of AI cheats into a game for reloads such as these, which anyone would consider legitimate. If the game's designers want a way to trap or penalize habitual reloaders, there is a much simpler and better way to do it than by using autosaves.

Attachment: no_auto.zip
This has been downloaded 37 time(s).

	17-01-2002 15:37									#16
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Thanks solo. Great post! This means you will have to be even more careful what you trade and with whom.

Now, if Firaxis thinks this is a feature, not a bug, I would really really like to have a few more screens (advisors) telling more about the AI civs. What they are trading, with whom, when the trade deals end, what kind of government they are in, what techs they know and what they are researching. All this was in SMAC and much of it in Civ2, so why not have it in Civ3???

	17-01-2002 20:07									#17
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I have an anecdote that possibly shows this effect. I was trading for Russian furs. Between my France and Russia lay 2 German towns. I went to war with the Germans and got the expected "We've lost our supply of furs!" message, as I was connected to Russia by the road thru Germany. That turn I sacked the two German towns, reconnecting France and Russia directly (now sharing a border). Before my turn ends, I open talks with Catherine, and their furs are not even available for trade! I just shrugged it off, not thinking much more than maybe sacking Russia, too, as the furs were around their nearest city. After reading this thread, I suspect they were pawned to somebody else while my envoy dashed to Moscow...

	18-01-2002 01:35									#18
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I can't help but think that just maybe there's something built into Civ3 to do mean things when you reload too much...

I remember seeing some weird things happen in games where I've reloaded a bunch of times without ever actually exiting and reloading Civ3. Specifically, I'm currently playing my first game with the Aztecs (Monarch), and have been trying several different ancient-era strategies. Out of nowhere, in 10 AD, I get a message about a barbarian uprising near a small recently-captured Boston defended by one Spearman. There was a stack of 24 barbarian Horsemen! This is at a time when I have 10 Horsemen and a single army of 3 Swordsman that has conquered all 3 other civs on my continent. An uprising of 24 barbarian Horsemen is ridiculous! Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I've only seen this kind of thing in games where I've done a lot of reloading.

Also, I noticed another little cheat the AI uses. If you gift them an undefended city, they immediately get a defender.

	18-01-2002 02:32									#19
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Hurry,

Thanks! I agree about extra information. It shouldn't be necessary to open diplomacy with an AI just in order to see what is what, and where things are. They know everything about the techs, resources and other details about the human player, and take advantage of this knowledge.

Marquis de Sodaq,

I bet you are right about the furs being traded out from under you! I'll think twice of risking a war because this happens, and try to have an alternative such as a harbor to maintain connections to trading partners. Also, I know now that when something becomes available that I'm even vaguely wanting to have or use, I'll trade for it immediately, just to give me a better chance of retaining it.

Dimension,

Penalties for repeated reloading can not be ruled out as a possibility. The handful of reloads throughout my game did not produce anything so unusual, but it could be that the game maintains a counter of the frequency or number of reloads, and if a certain threshold is reached, some nasty tricks are released. By the way, what was your setting for barbarians in that game? A lower setting than raging hordes gives a lot of credence to what you suggest.

solo

	18-01-2002 04:24									#20
	It's supposed to work that way Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'm reasonably sure that Dan M. said Soren allowed the AI to trade during the human player's turn as part of the patch. The change was made to prevent tech whoring. It's pretty easy to verify that the AI have a round of trading with each other every time the player opens the diplomacy screen.

	18-01-2002 09:51									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Dimension I can't help but think that just maybe there's something built into Civ3 to do mean things when you reload too much... Also, I noticed another little cheat the AI uses. If you gift them an undefended city, they immediately get a defender.

This isn't a cheat, if a city defects to you, you get a defender automatically also.

	18-01-2002 22:15									#22
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Perhaps "cheat", a word with such negative connotations, was a poor choice for one to use to describe what the AI is doing, but when it happens it does seem unfair, as it is something the AI does which the human player can not. Maybe I should change the title of this thread to read "AI shenanigans" or something along those lines. I believe a better way to prevent tech whoring abuses would have been to reduce the payoffs for doing it, which seemed outlandish to begin with.

One question for gnomos. I am curious if you have verfied this by investigating a city before it defected to you? Isn't it possible that the defender was there to begin with, instead of being "manufactured" as part of the defection process? I simply have never checked this. Have you?

	19-01-2002 01:55									#23
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quote: Originally posted by gnomos This isn't a cheat, if a city defects to you, you get a defender automatically also.

If an AI *gives* you a city, you automatically get a defender, and I gather that defender is the best available to YOU and not necessarily a unit the AI could have built. So this one is a two-way street rather than an AI advantage. In fact, this opens what is basically an exploit; see Aeson's "The Settler/Defender 'Factory'" thread.

	19-01-2002 09:19									#24
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A defender is automatically added when you give a city. Before I gave away a worthless latrine of a town, I stepped my pikeman out. I gave the city away, and a spearman appeared there for the new rulers.

I'd been "given" the city during peace negotiations. I could build my own pikemen, but got a spearman. (I upgraded him on my own time.) That points toward you getting the unit that is there, or if the town is empty, getting the simplest you can build.

	19-01-2002 10:12									#25
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Using the French I was getting Musketeers, all the cities were hooked up to Saltpeter. Using the Zulu's I was getting Pikemen or Impies, depending on whether Iron was hooked up or not.

	19-01-2002 21:06									#26
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Hermann,

Thanks for the tip, as I have just checked out Aeson's great thread. Mentioned there was the uncanny ability of the AI to found their cities in locations where special resources pop up later, which should be added to the list here, as many have noticed and/or suspected this is happening.

In one of my own games I had a small island to myself. Just three tiles of it were beyond by borders, one of them containing a horse resource. The AI made a beeline for this but ignored the other two. Just as an experiment, I replayed part of that game, and parked a warrior on that tile early on, but left the other two wide open. None of the AI bothered with those other two. Backtracking again a few times, whenever I left the horse tile open, it was snatched up quickly by one of the AI, instead of either of the resourceless tiles.

In another game, where I was on a small island, I had an iron resource on it away from my borders, and sure enough, that was the unclaimed portion of the island that the AI went after first with their settlers.

	21-01-2002 23:26									#27
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<>

You're welcome! I'm in your debt for a lot of tips, esp. in Civ2 Strat. That "preview of coming attractions" idea is interesting. When the AI founds the city in apparently worthless terrain, I guess it's like seeing my cat watching "nonchalantly" from an unusual location. That's a sure sign that the cat expects something interesting to happen there...when I step on the proverbial roller-skate, for example.

-- Ed :P

	21-01-2002 23:29									#28
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Solo, it ate my quote; that message was to you.

Marquis, I also got spearmen when I could have built pikemen, so maybe it is the best available to the defender. OTOH, none of those three cities was connected to iron, since I had that monopolized, so "swordsmen" were right out.

	22-01-2002 00:21									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard You're welcome! I'm in your debt for a lot of tips, esp. in Civ2 Strat. That "preview of coming attractions" idea is interesting. When the AI founds the city in apparently worthless terrain, I guess it's like seeing my cat watching "nonchalantly" from an unusual location.

The AI will settle all available spaces on the map, including what many may not consider promising terrain. It is important to spread your culture umbrella over every possible square of the map.

	22-01-2002 19:28									#30
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quote: I'm reasonably sure that Dan M. said Soren allowed the AI to trade during the human player's turn as part of the patch. The change was made to prevent tech whoring. It's pretty easy to verify that the AI have a round of trading with each other every time the player opens the diplomacy screen.

The day after the patch was released, several people had discovered this tech-trading problem and Soren acknowledged in a thread that this was "a major bug". If Dan M. has come by afterwards and made this comment you are talking about then either he or Soren is a liar.

I don't see how anyone feels they can play a fair game using the patch while this bug exists. Regarding this bug, Soren suggested further down in the thread I mentioned, "If it bothers you then uninstall the patch".

I can't write anymore, I'm so angry...