22-01-2002 19:55									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Feephi The day after the patch was released, several people had discovered this tech-trading problem and Soren acknowledged in a thread that this was "a major bug". :

Why is this a "bug" again? It sounds reasonable that a Civ would keep a backdoor channel open to other Civs during negotiations. In other words, if we give the Russians the technology of SDI, they certainly could secretly trade it to China.

	22-01-2002 20:48									#32
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In all the games I've played, I've NEVER been able to get the computer to trade a strategic resource to me, even if they had 3 sources of it. Maybe I'm too warlike, I don't know. But it's been very disappointing to realize that the only way I'm going to be able to get them is to take them by force. I can trade for luxuries, but never strategics. It's another reason why Civ3 is currently shelved and I'm playing tombraider.

	22-01-2002 21:02									#33
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quote: Why is this a "bug" again? It sounds reasonable that a Civ would keep a backdoor channel open to other Civs during negotiations. In other words, if we give the Russians the technology of SDI, they certainly could secretly trade it to China.

In a turn-based game like Civ III, each civ gets to perform a series of tasks, one of them is tech-trading, during their turn ONLY. The point of doing things that way is that you have the luxury of having this "backdoor channel" you talk about -- during YOUR turn only. The problem is, this bug allows the AI to have a "backdoor" during both its turn AND your turn. That's not fair and it unbalances the game! If this is a "feature" and not a bug, then if Russia comes to me during its turn and sells me SDI, I should be allowed to immediately trade SDI to other civs before the AI resumes its turn.


If anyone else can confirm, especially Firaxis, that this bug is somehow related to the use of autosaved games, please post this confirmation. Thanks!

	22-01-2002 21:36									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Feephi That's not fair and it unbalances the game!

There are lots of unbalanced advantages given to the AI, in an attempt to overcome its lack of "real" intelligence, and people are still able to beat the AI, even with all these advantages. I would contend that the exploit of selling techs to the AIs for enormous sums of gold made the game too easy for the human player. For me personally, the reduced tech whoring is one of the best features in the patch.

	22-01-2002 22:23									#35
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quote: I would contend that the exploit of selling techs to the AIs for enormous sums of gold made the game too easy for the human player. For me personally, the reduced tech whoring is one of the best features in the patch.

Well maybe they can put a flag in the editor for you to check to allow this "feature" when you play.

The term "tech whoring" must have been coined by someone with nothing to say trying to sound otherwise. It makes no sense. If I have a tech to trade, what's wrong with working my best deal with each civ that needs it? I expect that Firaxis, in the interest of balanced play, coded the AI to trade the same way. How do you know the AI doesn't do the same thing? The trade value of the tech decreases as the number of civs that own it increases so you don't get as much value with each subsequent trade of that tech. Whatever you accumulate in exchange for trading that tech is offset by the fact that you just made a bunch of other civs stronger by giving them your tech. How does that make things unfair or unbalanced?

	22-01-2002 22:36									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Feephi The term "tech whoring" must have been coined by someone with nothing to say trying to sound otherwise. It makes no sense. If I have a tech to trade, what's wrong with working my best deal with each civ that needs it? How does that make things unfair or unbalanced?

Becuase the AI is really, really dumb when it comes to trading and can be easily taken advantage of.

E.g. I came across a civ who wanted to do a straight swap of World maps. At first I was going to accept, but then I thought I'd see what he would offer me in negotiations. Not only did I get his World map, but also Mapmaking and 530 gold. With a trading instinct like that, it's like taking candy from a baby!

	22-01-2002 23:07									#37
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As someone mentioned in this thread, you can combat the AI civs trading on your turn by picking the right order to make trades. See to it that the others don't have anything to trade with whoever you trade with first.

I've noticed the resource trading too, where it shows up on the trade advisor screen but when I go to the diplomacy screen, it's not there.

I really don't mind it much, but a better solution would've been nice (not that I can think of a better solution offhand). Apparently, it's not a bug BTW, just a sweet deal for the AI.

http://apolyton.net/misc/chat/civ3/...as-chat-1.shtml

[draz2] is the trading tech bug being fixed? where comp trades in your turn?

[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] I don't think so. I think Soren likes it that way...though I'm not sure

Vague, but that's what the man said. Sort of.

	22-01-2002 23:21									#38
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Another anecdote about the city swapping. Last night as the French, my swarm of bad guys followed some settlers about. As they settled, I renegotiated peace, demanding the just settled town. It was granted. Tho escorted by a horseman, I got a musketeer as a defender - no town was connected to my saltpeter (or any resource, for that matter), and I was the only one with gunpowder.

Two cultural absorptions gave the same result, tho one was connected to my saltpeter.

Perhaps certain techs trigger what type of defender you get...

	22-01-2002 23:31									#39
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It certainly is not a side effect of save/reload. The game I started playing last night I had it happen to me several times while I never reloaded once. I ended up destroying several AI for "unfair" trade practices.

I can see the AI deciding that "ok, one of the others is going to have it, lets trade it to everyone" before trading something to the player. The problem is that the player can't reserve its own right to trade their own discoveries to everyone else first. This just forces the player to be more agressive militarily to get an advantage over the AI. I don't mind it too much, as it gives me a motive for conquest other than "they are in the way". I can see how it would be very frustrating on peaceful games though. It just makes tech research that much more worthless. As it is, after Horseback Riding is obtained, there really isn't an efficient reason to continue research. "Efficient" in this case being "how best to ensure victory".

	23-01-2002 01:06									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I can see how it would be very frustrating on peaceful games though. It just makes tech research that much more worthless. As it is, after Horseback Riding is obtained, there really isn't an efficient reason to continue research. "Efficient" in this case being "how best to ensure victory".

That's just plain silly. It gives you an advantage just being able to start producing a particular unit before everyone else. By the time they're able to, you could have a few dozen of them in the field already. Personally, I don't trade a tech if it gives me a foot up on my opponents. It's to my advantage if I can produce Swordsman while everyone else has to rely on Archers for instance, so I'll try to hold on to that advantage as long as I can. And if you're holding on to a tech they really want, there's no way they're going to be inclined to declare war on you.

And there are other ways to "ensure victory" than military conquest you know. The space race victory for instance means you have to stay ahead of everyone else so you can be the first to start building parts.

	23-01-2002 01:42									#41
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Having completed a game without using autosaves, or without reloading named saves (except to continue the game on another day), I still observed suspected instances of AI trades during my turn, but without any reloading, this could not be verified.

I agree with DaveV that the game was improved by reducing the amount of tech whoring and concur that the AI needs a few sneaky options unavailable to the human in order to compete. Personally, I like having a some AI tricks, as it can be a challenge to identify how they happen and to discover ways they can be circumvented. However, without a way of countering the way the AI deprived me of aluminum as detailed in the first post, all the work going into my OCC spaceship game would have been for nothing. Without a remedy, I would have been dead set against AI trades during my turn.

Heliodorus, I agree that your earlier aggressiveness towards the AI caused it to horde extra strategic resources, because in games where I have maintained the peace, I have always been able to trade for an extra resource that I could afford.

Tech trading is part of the game, and in OCC games at deity level, one has to leverage this as much as possible to get ahead of and surpass the AI on the tech tree, mainly because there are not enough viable alternatives for competing with one city at that level. However, the game could probably be improved further by reducing even more, the amount paid or received when trading techs. Amounts are often still out of proportion to what they are for other trades such as luxuries and resources.

One thing I have noticed about whoring techs, is that AI sneak attacks are more likely if you bleed them for a huge amount of gold/turn when vending a tech. If you can not afford going to war, (and war is the greatest folly for an OCC player on deity!), beware of AI you take advantage of in this way!

	23-01-2002 02:32									#42
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I said the best way to ensure victory, not the only way. If an AI Civ has no cities, they cannot possibly beat the player to any victory condition. The longer the AI is allowed to progress peacefully, the better its chances of competing for any given victory condition. "Backdoor Trading" just further weakens the usefulness of gaining a tech advantage, as it can't be relied upon to maintain a power advantage. This is more apparent on the higher difficulty levels.

quote: It's to my advantage if I can produce Swordsman while everyone else has to rely on Archers for instance

I was just using Horsemen as my prefered unit, thus Horseback Riding as the required advancement. If you want to use Swordsmen, just substitute Iron Working. After Swordsmen or Horsemen, there are no more Ancient era units to take advantage of, other than catapults in the case you choose Swordsmen. That means that 2 or 3 techs gets you the best unit until Knights roll around in the Middle ages. By that time they can be used to cripple several AI, while keeping up in the tech race through extortion. I prefer Horsemen because they become Knights near the beginning of the Middle ages, allowing the same strategy to be applied in that era as well.

quote: And if you're holding on to a tech they really want, there's no way they're going to be inclined to declare war on you.

The AI is actually more willing to declare war if you have something they want and won't trade it to them.

	23-01-2002 02:56									#43
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Solo -

I've been having the worst luck on my OCC games. 3 times so far I've made it in a good position to the Modern Age, and each time there was either no Uranium or no Aluminum available for trade. Also I've been beaten to Newtons by 1 turn a couple times, just bad planning on my part there though.

quote: Originally posted by solo Having completed a game without using autosaves, or without reloading named saves (except to continue the game on another day), I still observed suspected instances of AI trades during my turn, but without any reloading, this could not be verified.

One way to verify it is to check all the AI before trading anything. Very often when trading a Tech that none of the AI has, right after the trade is made, several of the AI will have it. I've also seen this happen with maps and communications. These trades can be avoided somewhat by the order of trading, but it takes a lot more clicking to check who has what to trade. Even then the AI will occasionally "give" the traded discovery to everyone else for basically free.

	23-01-2002 15:21									#44
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The AI has ocean-going galleys - why there is so little for us to explore.

The AI gives free techs to AI civs if I get too far ahead with my science. I saw a FOUR TECH LEAD early in the game passed in just fourteen turns when I found myself BEHIND by a tech!!!


FIRAXIS, if you patch nothing else patch the cheating. STOP IT!! I want a SMARTER AI, not one that cheats and breaks its own rules while doing illogical things.

	23-01-2002 17:40									#45
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The AI tech trading on your turn thing is more common on higher levels. More evident, anyway. I was playing on emperor and it got a bit frustrating how civs I didn't even know were in contact with each other traded techs.

Ecomium, I don't think your approach is helping. And it's so obnoxious that I don't want to believe your statements.

	23-01-2002 22:24									#46
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What really gets me is when you get the "we lost our furs" message then the AI contacts you and says they don't want to continue the deal. Before you can renegotiate, they've already traded the resource to someone else. Then your cities stop the WLTK day and you have to get another resource or up your entertainment. In the meantime, whatever length of time is required to be considered "ongoing" for the WLTK day benefits starts over and you miss the benefit for those turns.

It would be nice if you got a message when your deals were at 19 turns and maybe a "do you want to renegotiate" message or something.

	23-01-2002 22:30									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Radical_Manuvr What really gets me is when you get the "we lost our furs" message then the AI contacts you and says they don't want to continue the deal. Before you can renegotiate, they've already traded the resource to someone else. Then your cities stop the WLTK day and you have to get another resource or up your entertainment. In the meantime, whatever length of time is required to be considered "ongoing" for the WLTK day benefits starts over and you miss the benefit for those turns. It would be nice if you got a message when your deals were at 19 turns and maybe a "do you want to renegotiate" message or something.

Yes it would be nice if your Trade advisor would give you some sort of warning. However, since you know how long the deal is good for, you can alway keep track and renegoiate before it expires. And if you aren't sure how many turns are left, you can check the active trades area.

	24-01-2002 01:31									#48
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I do not care if the AI cheats, just document it. I want to know the rules.

	24-01-2002 01:40									#49
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I do not care if the AI cheats, just document it. I want to know the rules.

No sense of adventure eh?

	24-01-2002 03:08									#50
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Aeson,

I agree about resources being a problem, and it was that AI aluminum trade during my turn that cost me my first win. (Well, I did go back and replay to get aluminum, just to see if I could do it.) That is one reason OCC is so much tougher in CivIII. You should check out Toe Truck's Persian start in my quest thread, as there were not any resource shortages and both TT and myself managed easier wins. This was on a small map, though, so you can not afford to miss any of the science wonders. Start pre-builds early! Good luck and have fun with this one, should you decide to try again.

You are right about checking before trading, which I don't always do, as I am still not sure if there is an ill effect from ringing up an AI just to check out something like their tech or resources. This may "bother" them as used to happen in CivII, so I only make contact when there is definite business in mind. Hence, I could not confirm suspicions in that game without resorting to reloads.

encomium,

Ocean going galleys is another good AI trick, and this is carried over from CivII, where AI triremes sailed anywhere at will.

A wide tech lead does evaporate quickly, and the game is designed to prevent such leads, with AI free trades one of the tactics used. Another factor is that techs become much cheaper to learn, once one or more players have acquired them. Since these things happen, another way to use a wide tech lead might be to sell those techs to the AI, which will temporarily reduce their level of research. Also, let them do the work of researching off-path techs, since once they all know one, you can buy it for peanuts or learn it yourself in 4 turns. There other ways to use the design to your advantage.

I agree that ideally, the AI should be smarter and not have to rely upon sneaky tricks, but face it, things that are obvious to good human players are not so easy to program into the AI. Unfortunately, much more work has been done improving computer play in universally known games like chess. So many variables are involved in playing civ well, that a few programmers under pressure to complete a commercial product can not hope to build as much intelligence into AI play, and they are forced to use tricks to make the AI more competitive.

Radical,

I know what you mean about "we lost" messages, having been a victim. However, they usually come on a turn or two after the deal expires, so if you are careful enough to count the turns remaining for deals you want to preserve, you can go in and renegotiate most deals before this message (and it consequences) pops up.

It is a pain, though, keeping track, and I do wish there was an easier way to check rather than by counting yourself, or making AI contact every few turns to check.

Any turn starting with "We have lost..." makes me wince, though, making me think I count wrong or that my system for maintaining peace has a new flaw.

	24-01-2002 03:41									#51
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quote: Originally posted by solo It is a pain, though, keeping track, and I do wish there was an easier way to check rather than by counting yourself, or making AI contact every few turns to check. Any turn starting with "We have lost..." makes me wince, though, making me think I count wrong or that my system for maintaining peace has a new flaw.

Can't you check that by going to your Trade Advisor screen? I've never bothered to look really, but that would certainly seem to be a logical assumption.

	24-01-2002 05:31									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Can't you check that by going to your Trade Advisor screen? I've never bothered to look really, but that would certainly seem to be a logical assumption.

I believe the Trade Advisor screen only shows *whom* you are trading resources with, not giving any details. It sure would be nice if you could get details on that screen.




-Patch

	24-01-2002 07:20									#53
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I'm not sure if this is what you're asking about, but on the diplomacy screen with the civ in question it tells how long an ongoing trade has left under "Active". The turns remaining are in parenthesis to the left of the resource, luxury, or diplomatic agreement. No number = the deal is past 20 turns or doesn't have an expiration, such as an original peace treaty.

	24-01-2002 08:03									#54
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I take back my comment about galleys. I believe the AI follow the same rules for their use as the human player, only moving across sea or oceans with them when their level of technology permits this.

I'll stick with my opinion that the AI have a "knack" for zeroing in on sites where strategic resources turn up.

Ironikinit's description of "active" is a good one of a poorly documented feature. It took me a few games to discover its use and value, and using it is the only way I know of checking on the turns left for each deal after contacting an AI. I would like a handier way of seeing this info, such a screen that would show details of all active deals.

	24-01-2002 21:19									#55
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I've never seen this "cheat" - last night I was in a tech lead throughout and every time I researched a new one I hawked it round the other civs in the same turn with no problem.

Maybe it's something to do with "autosave". Although I have this box checked I don't know how to use it... can someone explain?

	24-01-2002 21:38									#56
	Increase the size of your Attachments

When you do a regular save of a game, it (by default) goes into your "Saves" folder. When you have the autosave option turned on, a save file for each of your recent turns (5, I think) is put into a folder named Autosave (or something similar), that is in the Saves folder. So, if you wanted to back up a few turns, you could select the load-game option, double click on the Autosave folder (probably located at the top of the list of files and folders within the Saves folder) and then select the appropriate autosave file.

Loading an autosave file gives you an easy mechanism to retry or test something when you didn't explicitly create a save file yourself in the recent moves.

	24-01-2002 21:39									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Darth Sidious When you investigate a city you can see right? Also, you don't have to be in doubt about their government, you can see it as well when you open the embasy and look at his capital.

You can also see govt type when you go into the Military Advisor screen. It shows the different civs govts even if you cannot see their actual military units.

	24-01-2002 21:45									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ironikinit The AI tech trading on your turn thing is more common on higher levels. More evident, anyway. I was playing on emperor and it got a bit frustrating how civs I didn't even know were in contact with each other traded techs. In theory, the game should be working somewhat simultaneously. So, while you are making a deal with civ A, civ A has ongoing negotiations available with the other civs. As the ink on the parchment is drying, civ A calls civ B to trade it off. Ecomium, I don't think your approach is helping. And it's so obnoxious that I don't want to believe your statements.

If you are weighing the game in your favor the way you mentioned, you have no legit reason to complain.

	24-01-2002 21:48									#59
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quote: Originally posted by macaskil I've never seen this "cheat" - last night I was in a tech lead throughout and every time I researched a new one I hawked it round the other civs in the same turn with no problem. Maybe it's something to do with "autosave". Although I have this box checked I don't know how to use it... can someone explain?

It happens without the reloads, all the time in my monarch games, although some ai civs can fall behind still, because they don't have the money to buy the techs from the other civs. They won't just trade it for a few gold or a world map or something amongst themselves(although one might try to extort another with a world map for tech trade like they sometimes do to you.) If you know this can happen you can plan your trades accordingly.

It may be a bug, but its one that makes the ai a little tougher to beat which is a good thing, to me.

	24-01-2002 22:12									#60
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The use of "active" to check trade status requires contact, this should not be. We should be able to check on our own trades with out contacting the AI. A busines would look at its own auditors or contracts, not call the other company to get this type of data. Since they info on contact screen does not require any special gathering, it should be available on my trade advisor screen without contact. I want to know if they have any money before I waste time contacting them.