23-01-2002 03:55									#241
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I don't think anybody would interpret that phrase quite that liberally. Promising to go easy if Hogan told where the radio was would be acceptable treatment in my mind.

(Whereas threatening a month of no sunlight, for example, wouldn't be)

	23-01-2002 04:23									#242
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Plea bargaining death or life in prison charges down to 5, 10, 20 years or walking out the door tends to induce cooperation in most people.

	23-01-2002 04:25									#243
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And why would I disagree with that?

I just don't think plea-bargaining on criminal charges violates the letter (and for damn sure not the spirit) of the Convention.

	23-01-2002 04:36									#244
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quote: I didn't mean you personally I meant you as in the US or westerners in general.

The logic still applies.

The arguement "well the USA was a big bully invading Afghanistan" is wrong. If a nation declares war, they pay the penalties of the war. They were told to hand OBL over. They didn't. They were offered evidence. They didn't. Now the afghanistan people are thrilled that the Taliban are gone, and their leaders re dead or fleeing. Life's tough. Were the situations reversed, much worse would've happened. Imagine if they'd attaked the US.

Oh wait.

	23-01-2002 04:44									#245
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Hey, I'm probably one of the happier people here that the Taliban got 86ed, but customarily extradition requires documentation which shows proof that the individual to be handed over has done something. The US didn't respond to requests for proof from the Afghan government.

Not that I'm pissed, cuz I would have supported the war before Sept. 11th, but it was silly for Bush and co. to appear so hard-headed, IMO...

(Though I guess the Taleban was even sillier to be hard-headed )

	23-01-2002 04:55									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 And yet another of the "hate Chris" brigade is heard from.

where do I sign up?

	23-01-2002 07:27									#247
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Hey, I'm probably one of the happier people here that the Taliban got 86ed, but customarily extradition requires documentation which shows proof that the individual to be handed over has done something. The US didn't respond to requests for proof from the Afghan government.

The internationally recognized Afghan government (Rabbani and co. at the time) made no such requests. For the US to acquiesce to the Taleban's request would have legitimized their status as a defacto government, then the Taleban would have used the propaganda opportunity to deny that bin Laden was guilty and laughed their asses off at how they'd played Bush.

In the circumstances (note that my opinion of Ashcroft in general is pretty damned low, I'm becoming less than impressed with Rumsfeld, so I'm not the quintessential America love it or leave it lackey), I don't see how Bush had much of an alternative, that wouldn't have involved the US either kowtowing to the Taleban or acting the bully. I think Mullah Omar was smart enough to know this - he also knew that handing over bin Laden was a political impossibility even IF he had the slightest inclination, so the whole thing IMO was a cynical maneuver (and a damn good one) to get what propaganda value they could out of the inevitable confrontation.

The problem is that the Taleban thought they had a lot higher degree of support from the tribes and their own fighters.

quote: Not that I'm pissed, cuz I would have supported the war before Sept. 11th, but it was silly for Bush and co. to appear so hard-headed, IMO... (Though I guess the Taleban was even sillier to be hard-headed )

So what's the problem? The war there is essentially over, and with the multinational commitment to nation (re)building in Afghanistan, and the increased flow of aid now, the long-term prospects for the vast majority of the Afghan people are better than they were back on September 10, despite a lot of lingering problems.

	23-01-2002 07:29									#248
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And why would I disagree with that? I just don't think plea-bargaining on criminal charges violates the letter (and for damn sure not the spirit) of the Convention.

Any interrogation beyond the scope of name, rank, serial number, unit designation, and date of birth is generally impermissible, and any threat in changes of conditions of captivity (or duration) is expressly prohibited under Article 17.

What happens in reality is that nobody strictly adheres to all the conditions of the convention all the time. And I mean nobody.

In this case, the US position is that it simply doesn't apply to these prisoners.

	23-01-2002 07:31									#249
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You're making it up as you go along

	23-01-2002 07:56									#250
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever where do I sign up?

I wasn't aware you could write.

See Horsey?

Hardly my imagination, a loser fell for that ol trick sure as shotin'

	23-01-2002 08:02									#251
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat What happens in reality is that nobody strictly adheres to all the conditions of the convention all the time. And I mean nobody.

And yet MTG wants to apply super strict, letter of the convention definitions to POW's

Hoisted on your own petard there old chap

Here, have some more rope

	23-01-2002 14:13									#252
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Mike:

"Article 17"

Hmmm.... Bush-lawyer leaning out of the window and..... OOPS!

Read the headline of the chapter: "BEGINNING OF CAPTIVITY". And as a matter or war-captivity, no one can be coerced to give information about say troop movements etc. This is unrelated - UNRELATED - to criminal prosecutions.

Disciplinary and criminal sanctions come later. Look for "Judicial proceedings": namely Art 99 onwards. And ia Art 99 states as the relevant provision:

"No moral or physical coercion may be exerted on a prisoner of war in order to induce him to admit himself guilty of the act of which he is accused."

Apart from this and other specific guarantees, the respective law for your own military guys applies. Art 99 is a guarantee against being forced to testify against yourself - it does not exclude ordinary investigations and interrogations conducted for such a trial.

"you can't even discuss charging them criminally and offering a plea bargain for cooperation."

The way plea bargains are handled in the US they could fall under "moral coercion", but this has to be seen on a case-by-case basis. Lighter punishment for cooperation (in the trial - not in giving military information) as such is no problem.

Considering that say the position of terrorists or Al Quaeda cells is part of a criminal investigation, and not a military issue (as you found, we agreed that the ordinary terrorist is no combatant), I fail to see a problem with POW status - unless we are talking about protections against torture and such.

	23-01-2002 14:22									#253
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Chrissie!

"No wonder things are as they are there."

You know, or more likely, you don't know, that our Haider has gone totally gaga ? He's acting in a way now that makes dubya look like a really bright fellow. Which is interesting because...

"I never attack anyone, I am ever attacked, because I say my mind, unfettered by poltical corectness and false compasion."

That's a Haider quote!

"They aern't soldiers, they are animals, mad dogs, and we will put them down."

Goebbels speak.

"And that is the will of the people of the USA, look at any opinion poll."

Freisler speak.

"You can stick your morality where the sun don't shine (which also happens to be where friend Rollie pulls most of his answers from, BTW), we have had enough of "kid" gloves. This is kill or be killed."

The stench of defeatism. No confidence, no faith. But fascism has always been for the weak and fearful. Yet I'm sure you'll return to normal. Until then, you're really cute throwing that tantrum.

	23-01-2002 14:58									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse And yet MTG wants to apply super strict, letter of the convention definitions to POW's Hoisted on your own petard there old chap Here, have some more rope

Hardly, I say, "**** 'em, rather than give the Eurowhinies and Aussiewhiny something to actually complain about, let's not grant them a status they're entitled to"

Roland - "BEGINNING OF CAPTIVITY" - exactly my point

quote: Read the headline of the chapter: "BEGINNING OF CAPTIVITY". And as a matter or war-captivity, no one can be coerced to give information about say troop movements etc. This is unrelated - UNRELATED - to criminal prosecutions.

Thank you. Where do I send the case of beer, or the check to cover the same, since you've got all the good beer on your side of the pond?

That which you describe is EXACTLY what we want out of these *******s - current, relevant info on where the other *******s may be, and what toys and support mechanisms they may have in place.

Even if we treated 'em as POWs, we don't have to repatriate 'em until we're done with Al Qaeda, which could be years. Who needs to try them for anything specific? What we need, and what we want from these people, is current intel which we can not by terms of the GC interrogate POW's to get. And beginning of captivity is relevant, because every day that goes by, the intel that these people have gets colder and of less value, until it's essentially useless. Six months or a year from now, it won't matter.

These people have been interrogated continuously, and are being interrogated as needed, about current intel, and probably only peripherally about criminal investigative matters. What we want is to find the remaining *******s and their means of support, not additional trial preparation - that can wait. As you pointed out, that can be had anytime, regardless of their status.

	23-01-2002 15:10									#255
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"Thank you. Where do I send the case of beer, or the check to cover the same, since you've got all the good beer on your side of the pond?"

Is this a beer thread now ? Excellent idea. I always liked Corona (as a sort of lemonade). I assume they still have it in Mexico ?

"That which you describe is EXACTLY what we want out of these *******s - current, relevant info"

On military matters ?

"Even if we treated 'em as POWs, we don't have to repatriate 'em until we're done with Al Qaeda, which could be years."

If they are not POWs, and you do not charge them, on what legal grounds do you hold them ?
If they are POWs, and the Taliban were IYO the only party on the other side, the war is over - on what grounds do you hold them ? Do you negotiate repatriation, then ?
Now until you're done with Al Qaeda - so IYO the US is now formally at war with the remains of Al Qaeda that are nothing but a terrorist organisation ?

I fail to see why you need to twist and bend around creating confusions to come to a result that is unproblematic anyway.

"What we need, and what we want from these people, is current intel which we can not by terms of the GC interrogate POW's to get."

About a terrorist organisation, not a combatant organisation. Al Qaeda may have been both in Afghanistan (about which the earlier dispute was), but the latter, if it existed, is no more and is of no interest.

"What we want is to find the remaining *******s and their means of support, not additional trial preparation - that can wait."

The prosecution process also covers the investigative period. It were odd should the Convention allow for trials, but not for investigations. "You may charge'em with murder, but you may not ask them to find out who did it" ?

	23-01-2002 15:16									#256
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Maybe we need an example. On May 7th 1945, US troops capture surrendering high ranking Wehrmacht officer Maier who was involved in say a massacre in Ucraine. A POW. US investigators are looking for Eichmann. Are you saying that Art 17 stops US investigators from a) asking Maier about the massacre b) asking Maier about his orders concerning that massacre and c) asking Maier whether he has information where Eichmann is ?

	23-01-2002 15:31									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "Thank you. Where do I send the case of beer, or the check to cover the same, since you've got all the good beer on your side of the pond?" Is this a beer thread now ? Excellent idea. I always liked Corona (as a sort of lemonade). I assume they still have it in Mexico ?

Corona is what they make here for the gringos. I like Franziskaner Hefe Weisen myself. The only decent Mexican beer is only available around Christmas, and is called Noche Buena.

quote: "That which you describe is EXACTLY what we want out of these *******s - current, relevant info" On military matters ?

Yes - weapons caches, hideouts, information on strengths of combatant forces, locations of leaders, etc.

quote: "Even if we treated 'em as POWs, we don't have to repatriate 'em until we're done with Al Qaeda, which could be years." If they are not POWs, and you do not charge them, on what legal grounds do you hold them ?

Is there a time limit in which we have to bring them before a military tribunal to charge them?

quote: If they are POWs, and the Taliban were IYO the only party on the other side, the war is over - on what grounds do you hold them ? Do you negotiate repatriation, then ?

If we consider them POWs, that IMO would make al Qaeda at least partly a combantant militia (albeit with terrorist elements and some overlap). If that force is still in the field and hostile (remnants are), then the war isn't over, we're just not shooting as much or in as large an area, until we have good target info.

quote: Now until you're done with Al Qaeda - so IYO the US is now formally at war with the remains of Al Qaeda that are nothing but a terrorist organisation ?

That would IMO be the result IF we decided that al Qaeda fighters were POWs. We would be according the organization some degree of status as a militia extension of the Taleban.

quote: I fail to see why you need to twist and bend around creating confusions to come to a result that is unproblematic anyway.

I don't see it as confusing - I don't see them as covered under the GC, nor does the US government. Some of the rest of the world wants to consider them covered.

quote: "What we need, and what we want from these people, is current intel which we can not by terms of the GC interrogate POW's to get." About a terrorist organisation, not a combatant organisation. Al Qaeda may have been both in Afghanistan (about which the earlier dispute was), but the latter, if it existed, is no more and is of no interest.

I disagree on that score, especially in the military context - Afghanistan is still a very fluid, unstable, precarious situation, and caches of tens of thousands of arms, with hundreds of fighters unaccounted for in country, makes for a long term security and nation-building nightmare.

I would think the information we really want falls into both the military and investigative realms, but the military info is more essential now to enhancing the stability and security of Afghanistan.

quote: "What we want is to find the remaining *******s and their means of support, not additional trial preparation - that can wait." The prosecution process also covers the investigative period. It were odd should the Convention allow for trials, but not for investigations. "You may charge'em with murder, but you may not ask them to find out who did it" ?

My area of interest is more on the general military intel issues than these prisoners eventual disposal in some form of trial by someone. If it wasn't for potential military intel, I don't even see any reason to keep these prisoners. Or to have bothered receiving them alive from the NA forces in the first place.

	23-01-2002 15:37									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Maybe we need an example. On May 7th 1945, US troops capture surrendering high ranking Wehrmacht officer Maier who was involved in say a massacre in Ucraine. A POW. US investigators are looking for Eichmann. Are you saying that Art 17 stops US investigators from a) asking Maier about the massacre b) asking Maier about his orders concerning that massacre and c) asking Maier whether he has information where Eichmann is ?

(a) and (b) no, because they're matters of criminal investigation.

(c) would depend on whether there was a military or criminal nexus to locating Eichmann.

If you want to ask (d) where were the locations of the arms caches Eichmann (for example) and associates had stached in the mountains for a guerilla force's future use, that is clearly a military intelligence matter.

If all you're concerned with in (c) is the arrest/capture of Eichmann, that's probably criminal, so OK to ask. If you go into (e) whether Eichmann is in contact with SS forces who are moving to reform a guerilla force in the mountains to harass and contest occupation, then you've drifted back into a military intel matter.

	23-01-2002 15:49									#259
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"Corona is what they make here for the gringos."

I know. But it tastes like our Radler (half beer, half lemonade). But IIRC, they had to withdraw it from our market due to adding some wierd substances.

"I like Franziskaner Hefe Weisen myself."

Good choice.

"Yes - weapons caches, hideouts, information on strengths of combatant forces, locations of leaders, etc."

Well that is related to an armed conflict. And under the rules of armed conflict, you shall not recieve that information from your prisoners.

"We would be according the organization some degree of status as a militia extension of the Taleban."

Which they probably were.

"I don't see it as confusing - I don't see them as covered under the GC, nor does the US government. Some of the rest of the world wants to consider them covered."

As said, I cannot see how it can be ruled out first hand. Which means I'm neither with the "all are" nor the "all aren't".

"I disagree on that score, especially in the military context - Afghanistan is still a very fluid, unstable, precarious situation, and caches of tens of thousands of arms, with hundreds of fighters unaccounted for in country, makes for a long term security and nation-building nightmare."

Argueing this on pure necessity: I do not think it is very important. Weapons have always been around - I'm wondering how serious this new disarmament policy is. With the tradition of feudal and clan warfare, finding a couple hundred fighters is a side issue. Also, if they are unrelated to terrorism, why being hellbent on finding them?

Is the US military holding them for military info on Afghansiatn, or for terror prevention and prosecution ?

"My area of interest is more on the general military intel issues than these prisoners eventual disposal in some form of trial by someone. If it wasn't for potential military intel, I don't even see any reason to keep these prisoners."

I see it just the other way round. Staging grounds or "restrooms" hugely enhance the capacity of terrorist organisations as they aren't forced underground. It also opens them up to some extent as they aren't forced underground. Surprisingly many went to the training camps and returned to the west or ME. Elements of a central infrastructure were likely positioned there. And getting information on that - with any kind of records most likely destroyed - is what's interesting, not whether 1 million or 900.000 guns are floating around in Afghansitan.

	23-01-2002 16:02									#260
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"If you want to ask (d) where were the locations of the arms caches Eichmann (for example) and associates had stached in the mountains for a guerilla force's future use, that is clearly a military intelligence matter."

Exactly. And the reason you have a similar problem in Afghanistan is that it goes back to an armed conflict and it concerns people who in whatever way fought in that armed conflict. If it happens that terror camp boss Bakshish does not qualify as a POW, but knows that stuff, fine. If Al Qaeda fighter Bakshish was in a Taliban formation or fighting in a combatant formation alongside the Taleban, thou shalt not ask.

	23-01-2002 16:21									#261
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Hardly, I say, "**** 'em, rather than give the Eurowhinies and Aussiewhiny something to actually complain about, let's not grant them a status they're entitled to"

At last - the truth.

	23-01-2002 17:43									#262
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This thread has proved the treatment is not inhumane in the slightest.

Only daft Eurocoms and trolls would disagree.

	23-01-2002 19:13									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I wasn't aware you could write.

You're stooping low Chris. You can do better than that surely?

	23-01-2002 20:04									#264
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's This thread has proved the treatment is not inhumane in the slightest. Only daft Eurocoms and trolls would disagree.

I thought boddingtons was supposed to have a creamy white head - not a brown one...

	23-01-2002 20:12									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's This thread has proved the treatment is not inhumane in the slightest. Only daft Eurocoms and trolls would disagree.

That thunderous sound you heard echoing throughout the forums was my jaw hitting the floor.

	23-01-2002 20:15									#266
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Returning to the point of why those guys are held at Guantanamo:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/23/i...cas/23DETA.html

quote: Mr. Rumsfeld said the Pentagon's clear priority with the prisoners was to extract information from them to prevent future attacks. "These people are committed terrorists," he said. "We are keeping them off the street and out of the airlines and out of nuclear power plants and out of ports across this country and across other countries."

And:

quote: Asked what benefit the United States gets by not classifying the captives as prisoners of war, Mr. Rumsfeld said, "I don't know enough of the legal technicalities to answer your question. I know that the process of gathering the intelligence information has not been concluded."

Also, I can't see much importance in getting military information about Afghanistan. Not to mention that it should be a priority for the new government there which does not seem to be particularly interested in that group flown to Guantanamo....

	23-01-2002 20:20									#267
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I don't think the U.S. will be passing on the opportunity to gather ANY intelligence from now on.

	23-01-2002 20:24									#268
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Where would you personally prefer they be held?

Asking me ?
If so I suggest reading back a bit further, as I see a perfectly valid reason for holding them (there or not, I don't care) in the investigation/prosecution cause.

	23-01-2002 20:27									#269
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I misread the post I responded to, and was changing mine as you posted your question.

If I misunderstood, sorry.
If I didn't, my question remains.

We don't want the crazy s.o.b.'s on U.S. shore.

	23-01-2002 20:33									#270
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We should give them the freedom of continental Europe. I suppose they would be treated as heroes there.