24-06-2002 22:34									#61
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hmm. Must of misread that one.

	24-06-2002 23:02									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Gen......, I have not done nuch with Liv, will have to try it again. One thing I have often had to do is take OMI at mutation time as the darks like to sent stealth ships and I do not see them until it is too late to sent a fleet to defend. If the darks are gone and no one has stealth, then I will use my pick for something else. It is a bugger when you have the best fleet and still lose a planet because you did not know they were coming. The Interdictor slows them down, they have all day, since you are oblivious to them. Plus I like to locate all fleets to target any that are capable of busting a planet.
That is one other reason I do not care for Uni races. You have to sit on a planet for so long to get them assimilated. Yeah, if I had tele that would not be a problem, you can't always have tele.

	25-06-2002 11:10									#63
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

ARU is not added automatically, it is a special, however adv dmg controll is included automatically on all of your ships once the tech is discovered, just like new drive systems. i m not sure but i believe you cannot salvage adv dmg controll when disecting a ship, anyway the tech is not all that important and easy to get, sparky turns up in 3 of 4 games i play.
i am quite sure the lithovore->cybernetic warlord trick works, it was on the alt games moo2 newsgroup ages ago. I used meltpot to make all the races in my universe telepathic, that takes mindcontrolling out of the game and at the same time the rewards for taking over enemy ships are much greater since u can instantly use them, none of them gets stealth ships, omni or lucky. i usually play dictatorship because of the extra commandpoints plus they ultimately can have the largest production output with MUAWs

	25-06-2002 18:12									#64
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

ADC that is what I was thinking about...I guess that it is not as good as and ARU?

MUAW?

	25-06-2002 19:47									#65
	Full PM-box? Change here!

MUAW!

Moral affected android workers.

Great stuff!

	25-06-2002 20:02									#66
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Don't u mean moral UNaffected?

	25-06-2002 20:56									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well, they were only supposed to be so...

	25-06-2002 20:59									#68
	Got spare money?

Is there a bug with the andriod workers?

	25-06-2002 21:28									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Yes you can use evolution to change Liv to Cyber.
I do not fear Tele as it is useless if they can not defeat your planetary defenses. If anyone can defeat your defences they can take your planet anyway. I find Tele fun to play, but not any great trait. Capture of ships and use during battles, how much do I need that?

" none of them gets stealth ships, omni or lucky. i usually play dictatorship because of the extra commandpoints plus they ultimately can have the largest production output with MUAWs"

Not sure I understand what/how they are stopped from getting stealth or Omi or lucky? Darloks always have stealth.

Most games I use Dict as well for 0 picks.
I do not bother with droid anything as by the time I get this tech, it really does not matter. I no longer need more of any type of production and I will only have one type unless I can steal it or I am Creative.

I read all of the alt moo2 newsgroup from siff and tried most of the races listed. Most concluded the cyber was a bad pick. It just does so little and has no value by evolution (you have already won). I am talking about impossile level. Below hard it is just a phone it in game for experienced players. Hard is no real challenge, but is fun, especially in a small universe, where time is not on your side.

	25-06-2002 21:46									#70
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

BTW, the newsgroup had a huge battle over a "borg" race (cyber tel creative) where the author stated he had never lost with it. Later he says, he had to stop using it as he was crushed by turn 120 so often. That is what I have seen with that race. Drop the cyber and add prod or sci boost and it is a viable race. Again this is at impossible. One faq on the web list cyber as one of the "deadly picks" along with feudal.

Gen... would you post the traits for Liv so I can give it a whirl, thanks. Good to see your post.

	26-06-2002 18:02									#71
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

MUAW is an acronym for Morale Using Android Worker.
I ensure that none of the races in my games is lucky, stealthy, omni and all are tele by using an editor, that replaces all the races the game uses.
lithovore is imo best combined with scienceboni, u can let all ur pop do research, so u get most out of the boni, if u went for production boni u will produce so much, that u lose too much to pollution.
depends on galaxysize and starting tech what would be best, large artifact HW +1sci in small galaxies with average or prewarp start, in large galaxies/adv start general +2sci bonus may be better or even +1sci democracy if the spying doesnt bother you the moneybonus from democracy helps you buildbuy the facilities you gain from researching fast. negatives should include low-G and -GC
turn 120-150 this race could have some BS with EMG mercs and take orion, at which point the game would be virtually over but if you decide to leave orion alone you can research quite a bit and then mutate into a cybernetic warlord.

	26-06-2002 18:12									#72
	Put an end to popups!

I thought the androids were unaffected by morale.

Okay, I know ECM and MIRV, but what is EMG?

	26-06-2002 21:48									#73
	Inflate your Upload Space

Use of an editor was the only way I could think of to do it.
The manual says that droids are unaffected by morale, can nor be tax and are tolerant of hostile environments.
I never used EMG, so I am not sure what it stands for. I think it is emissions guidance. If so it puts all damage to the engine. By the time I have all of the mods, I am switching to beam ships and only use Armor, Mirv, Fast for the most part.

	26-06-2002 22:21									#74
	Put an end to popups!

I have read a lot of post about winning by turn 120-150, but I have not seen anything that makes me think it is a given. I have seen a couple of milestone post that have one eliminating a race by 130-144 range for telepaths and that can be duplicated. At impossible level, you just can't do it AFAIK. I am talking about no cheat codes and no editor on Large or Huge maps, you pick the race. On huge, prewarp, you often do not make contact till around 130 or so. Non creative races can not even afford to chose mercs, but must normally take pollution processor.
I for one would love to be able to improve my game as I struggle at impossible level and do not always win, especially with a less than stellar race. So if you would be so kind as to put a milestone to follow, I would be grateful. Something like :
racial traits (all of them selected)
map specs (player, size, age, pre/avg/adv
Home system looks like this
Turn1 events
next event (turn x got tech A
events (start build X
t1xx attack Y stop around 150 when you have it locked
Probably my technic is too passive and that is why I seem to fail to get the things done that others say they are doing so early. Thanks

	27-06-2002 00:43									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I agree with Vmxa1. How would someone be able to win by turn 120. seems like for that few turns someone could post a blow by blow. By turn 120, I'm still building colony ships and expanding. I usually have not built any ships, cept for a couple for defense only. Still do see how it would be possible to win by then.

	27-06-2002 00:52									#76
	Got spare money?

With advanced tech start winning by 120 is easy

But even with average by 120 I am usually just getting into war.

It's a long weekend and I should have loads of time, I'll try some non-edited impossible games and try and keep some logs. See if I can prove my initial statement

	27-06-2002 00:55									#77
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Thanks Garth, I'd love to see them. It is always interesting to see how someone else plays. Also, if not too much to ask, can you post your start?

	27-06-2002 01:04									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

You mean the save file?

	27-06-2002 01:40									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yeah, that will work won't it. I'll be able to follow along with you....err somewhat. I haven't looked, are the saved game files big? Maybe you could post the save games at milestones as well.

	27-06-2002 01:47									#80
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'll see how big they are and try. Won't be playing until Friday or Saturday anyway!

	27-06-2002 02:41									#81
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Tis cool. I'm juiced on Deux Ex now for a TBS break. Prolly will get back into the Moo groove by the weekend....Although there is GTA3 still to open and load....hmmmm

	27-06-2002 03:55									#82
	Tired of ads?

Great fun. You can attach a save file, it is 204k or there abouts. All hail our new hero.

	27-06-2002 18:15									#83
	Increase Your PM Length

I'm just hoping that it is not one big pain in the butt to keep a log of what happened. Maybe we (this means you and me, Vmxa1) should try it as well?

	27-06-2002 21:24									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Not sure what you mean by we should try it. If you mean follow the script, that is for sure. If you mean make a log of the attempt to follow the yellow brick road, ok. I have posted detailed logs for a few other games (not Moo2). It is not much of a problem for Moo2 in the first 120-150 turns as many of them will go by with nothing happening. Transposing them to a post here can be a pain. The easiest way to do it is to open a notepad or wordpad (best for RTF) and make entries there as you go. This way you can pop it right into a post here (plus for me, I could never read my own scribbles).

	27-06-2002 23:59									#85
	Increase Your PM Length

That is what I am afraid of, that keeping a log will be way too much work. Posting game files will be easy in comparison.

It will help all of us to see how the other plays. It gives you a different persective and may lead to new methodologies. And I'm damned interested to see how Mr. Vader works his magic. I's also like to see Mooms gamestyle, but he hasn't checked-in in a while.

	28-06-2002 00:51									#86
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Timelines can be useful if they specific. In a game to 150 turns, it should not be onerous.
timeline:

by t25, if you haven't landed your 1st colony ship, then you might want a restart
by t55, a telepathic race blitz.
by t60, you want to think of early blitz defense
by t70, you may want to think of building a defense
by t90, you may want to have some sort of a defense, possibly a battleship.
by t110, up to galactic cybernets can be researched by some people.
by t160, if you leave a democracy race alone, then you are fried chicken with ranch sauce.
by t200, all production and research techs can be done researched.

This timeline for a MP player is of no great value, it is interesting, but does not help me. On huge thing is I do not know the game settings here. I do not know what steps were taking and when.

	28-06-2002 01:04									#87
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Your right in the game settings. I think that

hard or impossible
6 or more players
large
average
average

no mods to enemies.

You choose your traits at 100%

Question:
What do you mean by landing a colony ship by T25???

on prewarp, it takes ~20 turns just to research
on average, you have one to start and usually not much to check out in terms of reachable systems. I usually get mine down in less than 10. Although you could prescout and restart and get a jump.

So no cheating allowed. Cheating is defined as saving , playing, then going back, or using any of the known cheats.

	28-06-2002 01:25									#88
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Here is what I do for my timelines:
Liv (10) Dem (7) -gc (-2) -sd (-2) rep (-6) +1P (3)
Imposible, 8 players, Large universe, Min Rich, Prewarp
Now you have the picture of the game set up.
T0 or 3500 moved all polluting worker to sci (left 2) and set to housing. Choose Elec comp
T.4 or 3500.4 choose RL
T1.3 choose freighter movd all but one sci to work to build RL
T1.6 lab done, making colony base
t2.0 or t20 nuc mis strt
t25 lasers srt hired Ruola
t26 base used, srt RL on new, srt scout build
t27 srt base for last planet in system send out scout
Things will slow for a time around here as it take longer to research and build. Now someone can say oh, here is where you went off the track.

	28-06-2002 01:57									#89
	Put an end to popups!

Now it can srt being work.
t27 forgotto list bought lab on 2nd colony
t28 housing on 2nd, lab done

note I am not documenting the scout

t36 base done, srt rl 3rd, srt spy on HW
t38 buy lab (50bc from debris)
t39 housing on 3rd, lab done, spy done doing trade
t40 move workers (most) to sci on HW
t43 srt AF on 2nd & HW, research colony ships, 2nd has 3 pop so srt AF, move 2 sci to prod on HW for AF build
t46 learn c ship, srt bios
t47 contact with klacs, AF done on both, 2nd srt marine, hw on trade as build of c ship is more than 23 turns.
(this is another point that may be less than optimal)
Need spies, need new colonies, need capitol ships, but still too slow.

	28-06-2002 02:03									#90
	Suffering from ads?

That was an example, right. You didn't actually accomplish those things on that timeline, right??

Another question. People say that they have won before t150. Is that T3515.0 or T3650.0????

Almost cross posted with you. You are right that it gets tedious.

There are a lot of turns where I do not do anything, so hopefully this will cut down a lot on the "logs"