25-07-2002 00:58									#181
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by alexman This is a good idea. I had also suggested reducing their movement by 1. But the problem is the AI. It likes to use ironclad-galleon pairs, and restricting the ironclad would restrict his invasion force. He's not smart enough to use Frigates when ironclads are available.

Yes, AI is the problem.

If I wanted to reduce movment or make them sink in sea, I would probably keep them with Steam Power.

	25-07-2002 00:59									#182
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by alexman One more thing. I would increase the movement of Frigates (but not Galleons) along with all the combustion-and-later naval units. This would make them still useful at the same time as the Ironclad, which is realistic and adds some strategy.

Hmm, you know, Firagtes & Ironclads have same movement of 4, which is OK since I moved Ironclads to Industialization.

	25-07-2002 01:00									#183
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by player1 I try to keep a Vanilla Civ3 flavor.

And this is why I like your mod so much.

	25-07-2002 01:00									#184
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by lockstep You could make ironclads sink in sea/ocean. Would give them a distinct role and also enlarge the age of sail.

You know, later Ironclads had no such coast problemes.

That's why I moved them to Industrialization.

	25-07-2002 01:05									#185
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by alexman Sorry, one more idea... Do you ever wonder why AI England is always weak but AI Egypt is usually strong? Some of the AI civs have stupid build priorities. Nobody should have Wealth as a "build-often" priority! This is also the reason why many AI civs hardly ever build any factories. Change build priorities to be more like what we humans have found to be optimal. Depending on the civ traits, place more emphasis on production, trade, and culture, and less emphasis on military units.

It think that 1.29 patch has handled some of these problems without playing with AI flags in BIC file.

I try try to stay away from these AI flags (for now), so I would not break something (remeber "famous" 1.17f patch).


P.S.
And you know that wealth effect is doubled with this MOD?

	25-07-2002 01:07									#186
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ugh...

So many posts and so many replies for just one hour.

	25-07-2002 01:09									#187
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

OK, last reply for today, I promise!

quote: Originally posted by player1 Hmm, you know, Firagtes & Ironclads have same movement of 4, which is OK since I moved Ironclads to Industialization.

If Ironclads and Frigates have the same movement, there is no question: you always build Ironclads. The point was to have a small window (between Industrialization and Combustion) where you get a strategic dilema as to whether you want speed or power.

	25-07-2002 01:31									#188
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by player1 I try try to stay away from these AI flags (for now), so I would not break something (remeber "famous" 1.17f patch).

I agree with you that AI flags should only be changed with good reason. But there may be one: Some of the best Civ3 players (Aeson, Theseus) suspect that the AI often doesn't bother to build marketplaces, therefore does not enjoy the additional luxury benefits and is seriously crippled. So it would be a good idea to set all AI's to build 'trade' often.

Still, this needs to be further tested.

	25-07-2002 01:38									#189
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by alexman If Ironclads and Frigates have the same movement, there is no question: you always build Ironclads.

BTW, player1, in that case frigates should upgrade to ironclads, not to destroyers.

	25-07-2002 02:58									#190
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by lockstep BTW, player1, in that case frigates should upgrade to ironclads, not to destroyers.

I was thinking about that.
But then, I said to myself, why to penalize England by making Frigate type units obsolete with Ironclads.

Yes I could make only Frigate upgarde to Ironlcads, not Man-O-War, but it would look a little bit strange.

So I would leave it as it is.

	25-07-2002 03:02									#191
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by player1 I said to myself, why to penalize England by making Frigate type units obbolete with Ironclads. Yes I could make only Frigate upgarde to Ironlcads, not for Man-O-War, but it would look a little bit strange. So I would leave it as it is.

If the Man-O-War is not allowed to skip ironclads and upgrade directly to destroyers, why are jaguar warriors allowed to skip swordsmen and upgrade directly to riflemen?

	25-07-2002 03:22									#192
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by lockstep If the Man-O-War is not allowed to skip ironclads and upgrade directly to destroyers, why are jaguar warriors allowed to skip swordsmen and upgrade directly to riflemen?

But you can always say, that Jaguars are pretty good lite troops, so they don't get obsolete.

But you can't say, even for Man-O-War, that it's a pretty good ships, so it's not made obsolete.

P.S.
The real reason of not making then osbolete is that they are an UU, which can trigger GA.

	25-07-2002 03:34									#193
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Actually, it's a very good idea IMO that jaguar warriors don't get obsolete quickly, even if this means a somewhat different upgrade path compared to warriors. And for the same reason I would tolerate a different upgrade path for the Man-O-War compared to frigates. I don't think that this would look 'a little bit strange'.

(After all, the Man-O-War should also be able to trigger a GA, at least in theory.)

	25-07-2002 03:40									#194
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yes, but that also can be a disadvanatge.

Other civs would upgrade their Frigaes, while English would need to build thier Ironclads form scratch.



P.S.
On the other hand,
Jaguars not upgrading, in same way, is not real disadvantge, since upgrade cost of 40 gold in anicent era is alot, and Jaguar have a movment of 2, better then Swordsmen.

	25-07-2002 12:59									#195
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Version 1.31 is OUT!
Download from top of the thread.


Changes in ver 1.31

Prequisite tech for Ironclad unit is now Industrialization (instead of Steam Power).
This is done in order to prolong use of Frigates as "queen of seas".
In original rules, Frigates were quickly made obsolete by Ironclads.

Late game naval units have increased movment by 1.
This is done in order to make greater difference between speed of modern naval vessels and sailing ships.
It should not be unbalancing since change is for just one movment point.

So Destroyers, Battleships, AEGIS Cruisers, Transports and Carriers get movment of 6.
Subs get movment of 4, while Nuclear Subs get movment of 5.


Attack bonus against barabarians is lowered too.

Why?

Since I don't think, that even novice players think it's fun to have his one lone warrior defeat 15 enemy horsemen. And that's something that can happen with anti-barabarian bonus of 800% at easiest difficulty.

Now, at Chieftain diffculty, bonus against barabarians is 200% (still good), at Warlord is 100%, at Regent and Monarch is 50%, and at Emperor and Deity diffculty there is no bonus at all.

	25-07-2002 18:45									#196
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Faster ships is good.
But it's quite bad that air units can rebase to unlimited range and railroads don't take up any movement points.
They severely handicap naval units even with this bonus (especially on a huge/large map).

Ironclad idea is superb.
I swiftly adopted it hope you won't mind.

Anti-barbarian bonuses are quite silly IMO too.
They already have a hp handicap.

Nice work player1 !

	25-07-2002 21:30									#197
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I agree, nice work! A real yardstick for other mods.

	28-07-2002 12:35									#198
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

player1,

what do you think about giving blitz to motorized ships?

it's quite funny that it takes a turn for a battleship to 'combat' a frigate.

it's also strange that it's a turns work to sink a bombed-to-death (1hp) ship by an undamaged one.
it would also better for gameplay that bombed fleets could be easily sunk by some undamaged ships in short time.

	28-07-2002 12:37									#199
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

would be also some compensation to airforces against the disadvantage they suffered by making ships faster.

	28-07-2002 16:24									#200
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by kettyo player1, what do you think about giving blitz to motorized ships? it's quite funny that it takes a turn for a battleship to 'combat' a frigate.

Simple, Frigates scatter and try to not get hit, one (targeted) gets destoryed other stay intact.

You can't target all enemies in the same time.

quote: it's also strange that it's a turns work to sink a bombed-to-death (1hp) ship by an undamaged one. it would also better for gameplay that bombed fleets could be easily sunk by some undamaged ships in short time.

Tip: Try using Destoryers for taking out enemies (they are CHEAP), and Battleships for bombard (ROF of 3).

Great combo.


P.S.
And blitz flag has one probelm:
It alows multiple bombards in same turn.

	28-07-2002 16:26									#201
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by kettyo would be also some compensation to airforces against the disadvantage they suffered by making ships faster.

It's not such great disadvantage after all.

	28-07-2002 16:34									#202
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It is possible to give battleships etc. a movement rate of 2 (instead of 6 as in your mod), treat all terrain as roads, and blitz. Makes for the same effective movement rate, and allows 2 attacks/bombardments per turn.

Still I like your solution better, because it's not confusing for newbie players ('Why has my battleship only 2 movement points?').

	28-07-2002 16:47									#203
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by lockstep Still I like your solution better, because it's not confusing for newbie players ('Why has my battleship only 2 movement points?').

Or, why is my battleship killed by Frigate (he used its bliz to attack 5 frigates in same turn)?

	28-07-2002 17:32									#204
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by player1 Or, why is my battleship killed by Frigate (he used its bliz to attack 5 frigates in same turn)?

Well, the battleship could have attacked only 2 frigates in a turn, but even then it is likely to have only 1 or 2 hitpoints left and be killed by another frigate in the AI's turn.

	30-07-2002 20:44									#205
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

player1,

This is a great mod!

As you may or may not know, there are two discussions in the Strategy forum that are converging, and could use a good minimalist mod.

First, there is a thought to 'encourage' the development of "killer AI civs." I sort of started it, trying to use player settings rather than the editor... the highlights of that effort seem to be that varied starting environmental conditions, including especially the clustering of strategic resources that comes with 3 Billion year world age, result in environmental winners and losers, which then get into a feedback loop (the rich get richer). alexman just re-ignited that discussion, with a thread on the use of build preferences.

Second, a couple of us have been shepherding along "Apolyton University,' in an effort to jointly get better at the game, and to prep for MP.

In both cases, we are generally looking for a tougher challenge, and better gameplay, but without getting to far away from stock Civ3 (again, part of the motivation is MP). Thus, it's generally agreed that we'd like to settle on a basic, standard mod. Vel's efforts (with others) in that regard seem a little much, more oriented to scenarios. I'd like to start as vanilla as possible, so your philosophy in this thread is welcomed.

All of that said, it has been suggested that we start with your mod, and I'm very favorably inclined.

Several comments / questions:

* Units: The biggest overall change seems to me to be the upgrade path for Longbowmen and Sword-level units. Any observations on actual game experience for both the AI civs and the human player? I know part of your goal is to demonstrate for Firaxis tweaks that they might choose to adopt... I can;t believe they'd change this upgrade path. Is it too much to ask for a BIC without this change?

* A number of your other upgrades and cost changes would seem to favor the 'rich get richer' feedback loop... have you, or others, seen killer AI civs emerging more often?

* We do want to adopt alexman's suggestions re build preferences... any thoughts? I know that you are disinclined to do so, but we actually did get Soren into the discussion, and he said that it is the right starting place. If we're right about starting environmental conditions, then we need to give more of the AI civs a shot at becoming killers... it seems like Egypt, France, and a few others are the only ones that currently do so, given the right start. Anyway, if you could take a look, alexman's Strategy thread is called "The key to AI greatness."

All in all, I really like your changes; they are very reasonable fixes, and keep the mod true to the stock game.

Kudos!!

	30-07-2002 21:41									#206
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Theseus * Units: The biggest overall change seems to me to be the upgrade path for Longbowmen and Sword-level units. Any observations on actual game experience for both the AI civs and the human player? I know part of your goal is to demonstrate for Firaxis tweaks that they might choose to adopt... I can;t believe they'd change this upgrade path. Is it too much to ask for a BIC without this change?

-The main purpose of this change is to remove Longbowmen and co. from build queue (same applies to Frigates). It would be just bad to have, when making modern historical scenario, these units in build quese.
-Second, it prevents AI from building them again in modern era.
-Thrid, AI was doing pretty well with these changes. Haven't seen any problems.
-Fourth, human player becomes more inclined to build those units witout fear that they will be stuck obsolete in some age (major problem with Longbowmen usability).
-Fifth, it just looks logical (they are all land foot troops, maybe not much logical for Frigate upgarde, but on the other hand how does Galleon upgrade to Assault Transport).
-Sixth, Riflemen now has attack of 5, so these upgardes give additinal offensive capability too (also Riflemen now costs 70 shields)
-Seventh, at least Cavalry does NOT upgarde to Tanks (since that would not be real upgrade because of lower movment).


So far, I haven't seen any complaints from fellow gamers.

quote: * A number of your other upgrades and cost changes would seem to favor the 'rich get richer' feedback loop... have you, or others, seen killer AI civs emerging more often?

I've seen them having less obsolete units then normaly.

quote: * We do want to adopt alexman's suggestions re build preferences... any thoughts? I know that you are disinclined to do so, but we actually did get Soren into the discussion, and he said that it is the right starting place. If we're right about starting environmental conditions, then we need to give more of the AI civs a shot at becoming killers... it seems like Egypt, France, and a few others are the only ones that currently do so, given the right start. Anyway, if you could take a look, alexman's Strategy thread is called "The key to AI greatness."

I don't know how much I would be of help in that thread.

Only important thing that I can say it that Mech. Inf. has no more offense AI flag selected (not realy needed). And Bombard AI is added to Fighter & Jet Fighter units.

I would probably not change "standard" version of this MOD, but you can make yourself "custom" version of this MOD with changed AI prefs and post it here in this thread (and that AI thread too).

	30-07-2002 23:05									#207
	Remove this text

Great. To differentiate we'll call it the AU mod.

I'll ask alexman to make the changes... I'm afraid of BICs.

	31-07-2002 00:11									#208
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

BTW player1,

what's your opinion on my version of your mod?

Are there any problems/flaws in it, master?

	31-07-2002 00:55									#209
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by kettyo BTW player1, what's your opinion on my version of your mod? Are there any problems/flaws in it, master?

It's OK!
Most things I would do different are pref. isses (like extended naval and air movment).
In some things it's less conservative (like those extra transport capabilities).
Some of those unit stat tweaks look unneded, but that's just me (more like pref. issuse).



P.S.
I played recently, with my MOD, one arhipelago Standard map with low land mass.
+1 Extnend movment in modern age realy shined.

Also, Battleships are great bombers, especialy since you don't need Carriers to use them (still they are expensive).

In my last war I had no Tanks, so I needed to bomb cities in order to land with Infantry (if I only had Marines).

	31-07-2002 13:02									#210
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: It's OK!

quote: In my last war I had no Tanks, so I needed to bomb cities in order to land with Infantry (if I only had Marines).

So is 'city bombing bug' eliminated with this patch? (every improvement/unit/pop hit handled as a miss when there's no imps/units/pop remain)
That would be really nice ! (won't make size 1 cities just for bombard defense for units)