20-03-2002 06:40									#121
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Boddington, correct if I am mistaken, but you seem to advocate social double standards -- one set of standards for behavior for heterosexuals that are separate and different from behavior acceptable for homosexuals or bisexuals.

Heterosexuals can talk freely about their wives/husbands, fiances/fiancees, and boyfriends/girlfriends without risking hostile reactions.

Heterosexuals can hold hands with their significant other in public places without a risk of being subjected to hostile reactions.

Heterosexuals can talk about their significant other at the work place without risk being fired or reprimanded for doing so.

If you are saying that those same behaviors are not acceptable from homosexuals and bisexuals, then you are advocating social double standards.

When you complain about "pushing it in my face," you seem to imply that you advocate social double standards.

	20-03-2002 06:42									#122
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Boddington, correct if I am mistaken, but you seem to advocate social double standards -- one set of standards for behavior for heterosexuals that are separate and different from behavior acceptable for homosexuals or bisexuals. Heterosexuals can talk freely about their wives/husbands, fiances/fiancees, and boyfriends/girlfriends without risking hostile reactions. Heterosexuals can hold hands with their significant other in public places without a risk of being subjected to hostile reactions. Heterosexuals can talk about their significant other at the work place without risk being fired or reprimanded for doing so. If you are saying that those same behaviors are not acceptable from homosexuals and bisexuals, then you are advocating social double standards. When you complain about "pushing in my face," you seem to imply that you advocate social double standards.

So you would advocate paedophiles talking about how they fancy kids and beastialites talking about how they fancy animals on the main street?

Parents don't want their kids exposed to that kind of nonsense.

	20-03-2002 06:47									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's So you would advocate paedophiles talking about how they fancy kids and beastialites talking about how they fancy animals on the main street?

Here we go again.
Let's start equating paedophiles with gays. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Look: Paedophiles who act on children should be locked up. They are criminals in that they exploit minors.
Homosexuals are heterosexuals, except it involves two men/women instead of one man and one women.
It hurts no one.

If heterosexuals are allowed to disucss how they fancy the other sex, by what logic do you deduce that homosexuals should not be allowed to discuss how they fancy the other sex?

Is it because you think it's icky? Is it because you don't understand it?

I think seafood is disgusting. I hate it. The smell, the taste, everything. Should I therefore lobby that it be banned and shunned from public simply because I don't like it and don't understand how people could?

quote: Parents don't want their kids exposed to that kind of nonsense.

Parents are teaching their kids to be tolerant these days, Stewie.
Parents don't want their kids exposed to the nonsense that you're spewing.

	20-03-2002 06:47									#124
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Fine... reply to the trivial parts. There's a surprise.

But anyway...

quote: I listen to some goth, punk and metal music and hence gain knowledge about the cliques from the lyrics

Care to share some examples with us, Stew?

quote: visit various web forums about them

You trolled the RW board for a short while... that hardly counts.

quote: visit various such nightclubs in Manchester and am a cautious member of some clubs here at uni

Other than on Thursdays, where you basically stay in the punk room and within your own group friends and people you know, I recall you going into Rockworld once (on a Saturday night), sitting in the corner and generally being miserable, before leaving early. If you're classing 5th Avenue, MutzNutz or (the late) Venue as "alternative clubs" then it shows you don't know what you're talking about.

quote: I think this helps me to see the general extremely liberal mindset of these cliques, where to be seen as anything other than "open-minded" is perhaps the most important thing of their existence.

What utter bullshit. By their very definition cliques are close-minded. You wouldn't seem to know a clique if it came up and screwed you up the arse. Anyway, the idea that you would show that you were "open-minded" by becoming bisexual is quite frankly ludicrous.

--------

I know you know several bisexual people Stew... let me remind you... Zac, Paul and Jenn... do you think they're doing it to be "trendy"? Did you not see the hell at least one of them went through? Are you talking out of your arse again?

	20-03-2002 06:49									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's So you would advocate paedophiles talking about how they fancy kids and beastialites talking about how they fancy animals on the main street? Parents don't want their kids exposed to that kind of nonsense.

You are definitely making distorted statements that seem to be based on bigoted bias.

And, you're using fallacies in that argument. Here is why:

Homosexual and bisexual relationships are based on sex and/or love between two consenting adults.

Pedophilia involves manipulating, and using children for sexual pleasure -- it does not involve two consenting adults.

Beastiality behavior involves sex between an animal and a human -- there can be no love or meaningful intimacy that exists in relationships between two humans.

You have used some serious flaws in your arguments, Boddington -- not to mention that they are bigoted and biased. Homosexual and bisexual relationships are not nonsense -- they are as legitimate as any heterosexual relationship between two consenting adults.

	20-03-2002 15:37									#126
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Asher,

quote: If heterosexuals are allowed to disucss how they fancy the other sex, by what logic do you deduce that homosexuals should not be allowed to discuss how they fancy the other sex? Is it because you think it's icky? Is it because you don't understand it?

Listen, I don't homosexuals or bisexuals, but if they keep details of whatever they do in private to themselves, they won't piss anyone off.

quote: I think seafood is disgusting. I hate it. The smell, the taste, everything. Should I therefore lobby that it be banned and shunned from public simply because I don't like it and don't understand how people could?

You generally don't get the smell of seafood forced upon you walking down the main street. (And luckily at the moment we don't get the sight of two guys holding hands)

quote: Let's start equating paedophiles with gays. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Paedophiles aren't necessarily criminals (they have to actually acton their paedophilia to be one). Should they be able to talk about how they'd love to do whatever to some young child in front of everyone? No. People don't want to hear or see it.

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* You trolled the RW board for a short while... that hardly counts.

I visit other bands forums too (Ataris, Juliana Theory, Smashing Pumpkins, Propagandhi plus other bands you haven't heard of)

quote: Other than on Thursdays, where you basically stay in the punk room and within your own group friends and people you know, I recall you going into Rockworld once (on a Saturday night), sitting in the corner and generally being miserable

Saturday nights are a pile of bollocks in Rockworld. Oh, and relevance?

quote: If you're classing 5th Avenue, MutzNutz or (the late) Venue as "alternative clubs" then it shows you don't know what you're talking about.

I don't see the relevance...

quote: What utter bullshit. By their very definition cliques are close-minded.

In what way? These cliques are close-minded that they only accept people who are way too liberal for their own good.

quote: You wouldn't seem to know a clique if it came up and screwed you up the arse.

I think I see more cliques than you manage to...they're everywhere in Rockworld - but it doesn't stop them trying to "prove" that they are "open-minded". I would think that since you're more into the poppunk clique you won't actually notice the demands the clique puts on you.

For example, ever been to Rockworld with a band shirt on...?

quote: Anyway, the idea that you would show that you were "open-minded" by becoming bisexual is quite frankly ludicrous.

You wouldn't actually *become* bisexual, but say you were and force yourself to do one or two acts in order to "prove" it either to yourself or to others.

quote: I know you know several bisexual people Stew... let me remind you... Zac, Paul and Jenn... do you think they're doing it to be "trendy"?

I don't know, everyone has their reasons for everything. I've not really talked much about the topic with anyone.

quote: Did you not see the hell at least one of them went through?

Everyone has difficult times finding who they are. I don't think that's a fundamental part of bisexuality but rather just a process of growing up.

MrFun,

quote: Pedophilia involves manipulating, and using children for sexual pleasure -- it does not involve two consenting adults.

OK, so in your eyes so long as two adults consent, they can do whatever they like around other people?

quote: You have used some serious flaws in your arguments, Boddington -- not to mention that they are bigoted and biased. Homosexual and bisexual relationships are not nonsense -- they are as legitimate as any heterosexual relationship between two consenting adults.

That argument is flawed.



Bisexuality by defintion can't be between two consenting adults. It has to be with three.

I am not bigoted at all, just trying to stick up for those who are afraid to post among this liberal mass at Apolyton their true thoughts for being shouted down as bigoted or homophobe. They don't dislike homosexuals, just the act being forced in their faces when it doesn't need to be!

OK, I'm going off to do some research about this, see what I can find.

	20-03-2002 16:04									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's People tend not to argue their true viewpoints on the internet..

I hope that's self referential.

Mind you I don't know what would be worse. To actually be a small minded bigot or just to want people to think you are one.

Where did you get that 99.9% stat from anyway? It's obviously complete bollocks. I'd like to see a link to the research papers or an article about them or something. I gave you links for the animal homosexuality stuff, not great but I found them in a few seconds.

	20-03-2002 16:14									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Bisexuality by defintion can't be between two consenting adults. It has to be with three. I am not bigoted at all, just trying to stick up for those who are afraid to post among this liberal mass at Apolyton their true thoughts for being shouted down as bigoted or homophobe. They don't dislike homosexuals, just the act being forced in their faces when it doesn't need to be!

No, it doesn't require 3 people. Bisexuality means that a person finds men and women attractive. It doesn't mean they are automatically into threesomes or whatever. They can have monogamous relationships or not just like everyone else. They might go out with a man for a while then a woman then a man or they might meet a person they love and never see anyone else despite their attractions to people of both sexes. They have exactly the same variety of promiscuity or non-promiscuity as any other person.

And you are bigoted. You are trying to enforce discriminatory behaviour on people. Suggesting that samesex relationships are wrong and that practicing it is disgusting and by inference the people that practice it are disgusting. I don't care if there are other people who think like you, that doesn't mean you aren't bigotted, it means that they are too.

Frankly your opinions disgust me.

	20-03-2002 16:14									#129
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I'll take this one as I doubt Iain will be around for a while. He'll be in bed until the afternoon you know

quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Listen, I don't homosexuals or bisexuals, but if they keep details of whatever they do in private to themselves, they won't piss anyone off.

Why do you care Stew? They aren't coming on to you. Why do you care? Insecure?

quote: You generally don't get the smell of seafood forced upon you walking down the main street. (And luckily at the moment we don't get the sight of two guys holding hands)

Walk past any fishmongers. I guarantee you the sight and smell of seafood is quite evident And what is wrong with two guys holding hands? They have found each other and are having a relationship (presumably). Isn't love a beautiful thing? Isn't it the same thing you are striving for? Is it any less beautiful because it isn't within your sexuality and your close-minded model of 'normality'?

quote: Paedophiles aren't necessarily criminals (they have to actually acton their paedophilia to be one). Should they be able to talk about how they'd love to do whatever to some young child in front of everyone? No. People don't want to hear or see it.

As we have said, paedophilia is a completely different kettle of fish. It isn't about two consenting adults, it is about one individual praying on minors. Talking about it raises massive problems, especially if the other people have children or are involved with children. But again, you don't get it.

quote: I visit other bands forums too (Ataris, Juliana Theory, Smashing Pumpkins, Propagandhi plus other bands you haven't heard of)

Try me.

quote: Saturday nights are a pile of bollocks in Rockworld. Oh, and relevance?

Not my musical cup of tea either. I don't have a chip on my shoulder about it though do I? I guarantee you that the people are a damn sight more friendly than in any mainstream club I have ever come across though.

quote: I don't see the relevance...

Well they are 'indie clubs' if anything, quite mainstream too. That is the relevence. You are referring to the wrong people.

quote: In what way? These cliques are close-minded that they only accept people who are way too liberal for their own good.

I think they'll find they are cautious towards you. That is because of the anger and filth you spew from your buccal cavity. They'd rather avoid you because they know what you are like from your Rockworld board shenanigans. You've made a rod for your own back on this one. I have no such problem whatsoever, as I have said, I always find the people there very friendly and outgoing. And if you haven't already noticed, you've earned yourself a similar reputation around these parts. Try talking to Ross or red_jon about what they feel about you. Ross thought he could could you as a friend, now he really isn't so sure. People don't seem to be bothered any more whether you attend poly meetings any more. And that wasn't the case a year or so ago where people were keen on meeting you. Your actions or conduct here are not isolated. People do judge you on them.

quote: I think I see more cliques than you manage to...they're everywhere in Rockworld - but it doesn't stop them trying to "prove" that they are "open-minded". I would think that since you're more into the poppunk clique you won't actually notice the demands the clique puts on you.

Now you're just spouting total drivel. You now seem to be saying that open-mindedness is a bad thing. Again, you have made the rod for your own back here as discussed previously. Your reputation proceeds you.

quote: For example, ever been to Rockworld with a band shirt on...?

Yes thanks, quite often. It is actually quite a good source of conversation if nothing else. People who come up to you and say they like the band and they are cool. It is a damn good icebreaker believe it or not. But you are too bull-headed to really figure this out.

quote: You wouldn't actually *become* bisexual, but say you were and force yourself to do one or two acts in order to "prove" it either to yourself or to others.

Why in the name of f**k would anyone want to do that? Words escape me towards the extent of your stupidity. BTW Stew, I'd keep your mouth shut at uni, because you never know which of your friends could come out. With people like you, it makes it all the more difficult for them. Besides, you know gay people at university. Do you talk like this to him? I bet he isn't aware of it. Well you try picturing how he must feel knowing that there are people like you in his circle of friends but doesn't even know. I've seen this at first hand with a friend of mine at uni petrified about coming out to another friend who comes across as somewhat homophobic. He couldn't do it, but knew it needed to be done, that is terror. I told him myself in the end. That is how bad it is. You have no idea how unpleasant and uncomfortable you could be making a friends like Stew. Personally I think it is a shame when people have to worry about the opinions of a brainless bigot and still somehow regard them as a friend. It is a true label of their character.

quote: I don't know, everyone has their reasons for everything. I've not really talked much about the topic with anyone.

It is truly sad Stew. These are close friends. You know, I am tempted to completely humiliate you and get Zac to come here and read your rantings. How clever would you feel then? I don't believe you can hold these opinions with your experience of this. I know I have talked to Zac at great length at these things, and he certainly isn't doing it to be 'cool'. If you think that, you really don't deserve Zac as a friend

quote: Everyone has difficult times finding who they are. I don't think that's a fundamental part of bisexuality but rather just a process of growing up.

I would expect most males during adolescence think about it. But it takes one hell of a lot more than 'thinking about it' to come out to friends and family now. It takes conviction and knowing oneself. Again, talking about something you don't have the vaguest inkling about

quote: Bisexuality by defintion can't be between two consenting adults. It has to be with three.

I think you have just exposed the most wide, gaping hole in your argument. Three people? We are talking about bisexuality, not menage-a-trois. Jesus, read up Stew, talk to people, get out there in the real world. It's really not what you think it is.

	20-03-2002 16:17									#130
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Excellent post PH.

	20-03-2002 16:21									#131
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I'm just tired of it Mike. Stew is a friend of mine, and I thought he was maturing and improving, but he has taken a massive step backwards with this stuff. I don't get it.

He says he is right-winged now. I think with his sermons that the his political affiliation is closest to that of the British Nationalist Party.

	20-03-2002 16:41									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Paedophiles aren't necessarily criminals (they have to actually acton their paedophilia to be one). Should they be able to talk about how they'd love to do whatever to some young child in front of everyone? No. People don't want to hear or see it.

Why comparing gay and paedophies Bob ? There is no connection.

I've heard a lot of good fathers (apperently) raping their own childrens ...
Please don't use such arguement for fire hatred.

Of course, people want not to listen a paedophile talking about his/her lust. Not because it is simply disgusting, but because they realize that the guy is harmfull for their childrens and proud to be it.

A gay who said that he love men ... why not ... Adult people are big enough to make their choice and defend them-self.

	20-03-2002 17:13									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I'm just tired of it Mike. Stew is a friend of mine, and I thought he was maturing and improving, but he has taken a massive step backwards with this stuff. I don't get it. He says he is right-winged now. I think with his sermons that the his political affiliation is closest to that of the British Nationalist Party.

I know. I don't really understand it. He seemed like quite a nice guy when we all met up in London but this is... well I don't know what to say really.

	20-03-2002 17:23									#134
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Possibly to much alcohol in combination with the wrong kind of company or to little alchol in combination with the wrong kind of company...

	20-03-2002 17:25									#135
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The thing is, I have been over to Aberystwyth and met his mates and they are a cool lot, which is what is baffling me even more I don't know where he is getting it from. I think the republicans have assimilated him and stuck probes in his brain

	20-03-2002 17:26									#136
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PH,

I've said over and over in these thread that I don't think all people who claim to be bisexuals are doing it to be trendy or fit in with their clique. I don't believe Zac is. I don't believe you have to start making implications like that. But I wonder if you do invite him here whether he'll be able to tell you about people who have claimed to be bisexual for the attention...

quote: I think you have just exposed the most wide, gaping hole in your argument. Three people? We are talking about bisexuality, not menage-a-trois. Jesus, read up Stew, talk to people, get out there in the real world. It's really not what you think it is.

If it's just two people then isn't it gay/lesbian or straight relationships? If not, then by definition bisexuality implies promiscuity.

Oh I don't know...see my new thread.

	20-03-2002 17:27									#137
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Maybe he's just pretending to be a right wing, homophobic, racist, snob because he thinks it makes him look cool?

	20-03-2002 17:28									#138
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quote: If it's just two people then isn't it gay/lesbian or straight relationships? If not, then by definition bisexuality implies promiscuity.

No. Read any of the several accurate descriptions of what bisexuality is in this thread.

	20-03-2002 17:31									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's PH, I've said over and over in these thread that I don't think all people who claim to be bisexuals are doing it to be trendy or fit in with their clique. I don't believe Zac is. I don't believe you have to start making implications like that. But I wonder if you do invite him here whether he'll be able to tell you about people who have claimed to be bisexual for the attention...

Why would Zac need to do it, ask yourself that. How much have you actually talked to Zac about it? Do you know how he feels about the situation? I didn't think so.

quote: If it's just two people then isn't it gay/lesbian or straight relationships? If not, then by definition bisexuality implies promiscuity. Oh I don't know...see my new thread.

Not really, if they are equally content with either sex, it depends on who they meet, and who turns out to be Mr/Miss Right. It's as simple as that.

Mike, that is the impression I get quite a lot of the time. Iain is on the right hand side on the political spectrum, and although we disagree on political standpoint, there isn't any conflict. Besides Iain is more liberal in his outlook.

	20-03-2002 17:36									#140
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That's the only reason I keep responding to him. I'm trying to work that out. People don't just turn into complete fascists overnight. It wouldn't be the first time Stew's pretended to believe something just to get a reaction but what he's portraying here is so nasty I can't see why he'd want to be perceived like that.

I am slowly working on Iain, he could choose Lib Dem's for his personal freedom reasons or Conservatives for economic ones we need to persuade him that the personal freedom points are more important.

	20-03-2002 17:43									#141
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Iain will be a tough nut to crack. Stew seems to be just doing it for the kicks. It is just a phase. But the thing is, he should be too old for 'phases'. I'm sure he does it to antagonise me at times also.

	20-03-2002 20:53									#142
	Argument Fallacies on Sexual Orientation Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

People like Boddington, who do not know how to participate in intelligent arguments about sexual orientation and/or homosexuals/bisexauls, use pedophilia and sex with animals through one of the two argument fallacies.

Strawman argument: Boddington or others imply that homosexuals and bisexuals argue for acceptance of pedophilia and sex with animals, when we really are not arguing at all for that. They impose a fake argument on us that we do not support.

Slippery Slope argument: Boddington or others claim that if society accepts homosexual and bisexual behavior as legitimate, then that means we HAVE to accept pedophilia behavior, and sex with animals. There is no evidence to provide for the claim that this will definitely happen just because something else happens first.

Pedophilia and sex with animals are not related to human sexual orientation.

Again, let me reiterate. Pedophilia involves manipulating children into having sex for pleasure.

Sex with animals does not involve any meaningful relationship based on intimacy between the animal and the human.

Sex between two consenting, competent adults -- whether they're heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual, is legitimate.

	20-03-2002 21:41									#143
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"When men are most sure and arrogant, they are commonly the most mistaken."
David Hume 1711-1776

I'm still amazed at those comments posted here by Bod and Faided Glory. How can people even use comments that are so clearly logically wrong? I'm partisipating in a same argument in a Finnish forum; same comments come from two different people. I doubt they are FG and Bod?
Some are on an Eternal Crusade against the evil forces of Logic and Critical Thinking! Luckily the majority have some brains.
Feel free to insult me, (you know who)

	20-03-2002 23:07									#144
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For those who are interested...

Unite to Stop the BNP National Rally

Saturday 23rd March, 2.30pm Pennine Way Hotel, Manchester Street Oldham

Speakers include: Michael Meacher MP, Phil Woolas MP, Arlene McCarthy
MEP, Owain James, President of NUS, Lee Jasper,
Senior Advisor to the Mayor of London on Equalities, Angela Mason,
Stonewall, Revd Arlene Trotman, Churches Commission for
Racial Justice, Earl Barratt, former Oldham Athletic footballer, Julie
Hesmondhalgh (Hayley from Coronation St) plus faith group
representatives, trade unionists and others.

Thought this might be the appropriate place...

	20-03-2002 23:52									#145
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Let's get back to the thread's original topic. And that was, bisexuality.

What if bisexuality is proven to be the fundamental basis of each person's sexual orientation identity? In other words, that we're all bisexual but we lean a lot towards either heterosexuality or homosexuality??

Maybe bisexuality could be proven to be not as a third sexual orientation, as it is usually seen today, but as a basis from which a person becomes predominantly heterosexual or homosexual.

That means each person is fundamentally bisexual, but predominantly heterosexual or homosexual.

	21-03-2002 00:39									#146
	Remove this text

Don't forget that some of. . . err. . . some people are right smack dab in the middle. (or very close to the middle)

And there's nothing preventing a bisexual person from being monogamous, Bod. Just like, once you're with a girl, you're still ATTRACTED to other girls. That doesn't mean you sleep with every girl you see. Just like two guys together, if they're together, it doesn't mean they're not attracted to other guys as well. Just because they are, or just because YOU are doesn't mean anyone has a tendancy to be promiscuous at all. If a bisexual person is with someone, they'll be attracted to others, but NOTHING indicates that leads to increased promiscuity.

	21-03-2002 00:59									#147
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Someone said the homosexuality/Bisexuality was natural. And I said to prove it. Its not mine to prove it isnt. They said it. They didnt...

I'm going to post another reprint of what I consider to be the greatest post ever made on Apolyton. Mindseye, I really must buy you a drink some day, as I've used this post on every "Is homosexuality/bisexuality natural?" debate I've been in since you posted it. Nice one, Tiger.

"In several recent threads I've cited the abundance of homosexual behavior in the animal world, and have promised a thread with plenty of examples. My source is the wonderful book Biological Exuberance by Bruce Bagemihl, PhD (St. Martins Press, 1999).

The author, a biologist and researcher, (and incidentally a married heterosexual with children), has compiled a massive compendium of documented observations of homosexual behavior in animals, concentrating on mammals. The book is thoroughly documented, and encyclopedic in nature - the section detailing behavior by species is about 400 pages long. Plenty of fascinating photos and drawings are included in this terrific book.
The author also discusses the difficulties and obstacles he encountered, and biologists' traditional aversion to the topic. Typically, same-gender sexual activity has been disregarded, or written off as "greetings" or domineering activity to establish social pecking order, even when the behavior is clearly welcomed or even initiated by the less dominant individual.

Anyway , there's enough subject matter here for several topics, so let's get down to examples! I will be paraphrasing and summarizing to an extreme degree, the book provides vast amounts of data. All quotes are from the book. I've tried to select examples that give an idea of the variety of behaviors and animals involved. Keep in mind that this long list represents a fraction of the animals discussed in the book.

The point of this posting is to debunk the notion that homosexual sex is "unnatural" or "contrary to nature", and to ask why should we expect humans to be so different?
Ming, apologies in advance, I till try to keep this from being overly explicit, although that may not be easy given the subject matter!
- mindseye
--------------------------------------------------
Giraffes - Males have a graceful and erotic ritual they only perform with other males, usually as a prelude to sex. It starts out with an intertwining of necks, and usually ends with intercourse.

Bottlenose Dophins - both males and females engage in affectionate and sexual activities with members of their own gender.This includes nuzzling, touching, stroking each other's geneitalia with fins or beaks, and intercourse between males. Activity is sometimes performed in groups. "The lives of male bottlenose dolphins are charcterized by extensive bisexuality combined with periods of exclusive homosexuality." Males sometimes form life-long pair bonds with other similar-aged males, becoming constant companions - the relationship usually includes sex. Male Bottlenose Dolphins ocassionally have sex with male Spotted Dolphins as well.

Bonobo (or Pygmy) Chimpanzees - Bonobos live in mixed-sex mixed-age communities of 60 or more chimps. Females are generally dominant to males. "Bonobos have one of the most varied and extensive repertoires of homosexual practices found in any animal." Females engage in a kind of genital-to-genital stimulation that is not found in any other speices, usually performed in a face-to-face embrace. "As shown by their facial expressions, vocalizations, and genital engorgement, females experience intense pleasure - and probably orgasm - during homosexual interactions. Partners gaze intensely into each other's eyes and maintain eye contact throughout the interaction." Both males and females engage in manual stimulation, oral sex, and intercourse in a wide variety of positions. About half of all sexual activity is homosexual. "Bonobos have developed an extraordinary system of gestural communication that is used specifically for sex. A 'lexicon' of about a dozen hand and arm gestures - each with a specific meaning - is utilized by Bonobos to initiate sexual activity and negotiate various body positions with a partner (of the same or opposite sex)." The gestures have meanings such as "turn your body around", "spread your legs" "stand up", and raise the interesting proposition that human language evolved from similar beginnings...!

Black Swans - Black swans usually form mated pairs, with about 5% - 6% of males forming stable, long-lasting homosexual relationships, often many years in duration. These males engage in courtship behavior and sexual activity together. Male pairs raise chicks, either by inviting a female to mate and lay eggs in their nest (and then chasing her away), or by taking over a heterosexual couple's nest. Male pairs are usually more successful parents than hetero pairs because their combined strength often provides them with the best nesting areas,and also because they share incubation duties more equally. Approxiamtely 80% of male homosexual swans are successful at raising chicks compared to about 30% success rate among "straight" pairs.

Killer Whales - Orcas live in pods centered on a dominant female. During summer and fall, when pods come together to feast on salmon runs, "males of all ages often spend the afternoons in sessions of courtship, affectionate and sexual behaviors with each other." Typically, they leave their pod and temporarily join another individual male, or sometimes gather in a small group. They roll around each other, splashing, touching, nudging, and engaging in "oral" (beak-genital) stimulation, usually trading positions. Sometimes they have special partners they interact with year after year.

Manatees - Male manatees of all ages regularly engage in intense homosexual activities involving mutual masturbation, kissing, and mutual oral stimulation ("sixty-nining"). These couplings are very different from heterosxual ones, and usually last much longer per session. Sometimes a group of males will have sex together for hours.

Marmots - Females engage in same-sex mounting, usually after affectionate behavior such as nuzzling or nibbling. Female-female sexual activity is quite common among marmots, and may in fact outnumber female-male mounting.

Walruses - "In the shallow waters off the coast of the summer haul-out grounds, male walruses engage in homosexual courtship, sexual and affectionate activities. Pairs of males - sometimes as many as 50 animals at a time (...) rub their bodies against one another, clasp and embrace each other with their front flippers, touch noses, and loll together." Specal courtship "songs" are vocalized. Sexual activity involves mutal stimulation using flippers, mounting, and intercourse.

Deer - Most male and female deer occasionally engage in same-gender mounting, usually after ritualized "foreplay".

Bighorn Sheep - Male Bighorn sheep are incredibly queer. Males usually live in male-only groups "where same-sex courtship and sexual activity occur among all rams". Males seem to be unable to get enough of each other, both giving and receiving oral sex and intercourse. In fact, females sometimes try to pass themselves off as young males in an attempt to get some action!

Musk Ox - Something like 10% of all adult sexual activity (male and female) is with the same gender.

American Bison - Among males, "homosexual mounting is more common the heterosexual mounting (...) since each female rarely mates with a male more than once a year, while each male may engage in same-sex mounting many times a day." Younger male bison are especially likely to engage in same-sex mounting. Often it is initiated by the "mountee", who will back into another male with legs spread and tail aside in invitation. Homosexual intercourse usually lasts twice as long as hetersexual, sometimes it is reciprocal. Groups of young males (4 or 5) will take turns mounting each other or the same individual. Among African Bison, female mounting also occurs.

Parrots - Male and female homosexual bonds are common, consisting of 33% to as much as 50% of pairings depending on species. Shared activities include sitting side-by-side, preening, nuzzling, feeding and mounting each other. Females build nests and incubate eggs together, male couples do not build nests. Parrots that form same-sex couples are usually exclusively homosexual.

Antelopes - Both males and females of all age groups sometimes engage in homosexual mounting. As with many herd animals, most males (2/3 to 3/4 of male antelopes) never mate with a female, and many of these males have homosexual sex lives. Even among males and females who mate heterosexually, about 10% of activity is homosexual.

Chimpanzees - Male and female chimps engage in a wide variety of homosexual sex including "sixty-nining"and intercourse, occasionally even messing with other species of monkeys. The frequency of same-gender sex varies quite a bit between individuals, from as little as negligible to exclusively homosexual. Much or most chimpanzee sexual activity is not geared towards procreation. In fact, females sometimes engage in a type of contraception - by simulating nursing through manual stimulation of their nipples, females can induce a contraceptive state to prevent pregnancy, sometimes doing so for years.

Elephants - Males commonly engage in homosexual mounting and other kinds of same-sex activity such as play fighting and trunk-genital stimulation. Female mutual masturbation has been observed in captivity, but has not yet been viewed in the wild. While there are no long-lasting heterosexual bonds among elephants, about 18% of males form "companionships" with other males, remaining constantly in each others company and engaging solely in homosexual sex.

Flamingos - Approximately 5% of flamingos (both male and female) form same-sex couples, remaining together sometimes from one breeding season to the next. Most pairings are monogamous, and couples spend most of their time with each other, including sleeping and sexual activity. Both male and female homosexual couples may engage in parenting (males gain eggs by taking over a nest). Males in parenting homosexual pairs are able to lactate.

Lions - Most lions appear to be bisexual, although some display a preference for one or the other gender. Female lions initiate homosexual activty by pursuing and then crawling under another female to encourage her to mount. Sometimes they take turns mounting each other, and while doing so exhibit behaviors associated with heterosexual activity (gentle neck biting, growling, pelvic thrusts). Males exhibit a great deal of affectionate behavior, including mutual head-rubbing (often accompanied by a low moaning), sliding or rubbing against each other, presenting hind quarters, or rolling on their back while displaying an erection. This can lead to intense caressing and eventual mounting. Sometimes three males engage in this activity, mounting each other in turn.

Grizzly Bears - Although grizzlies are typically solitary animals, sometimes females bond with each other and raise their young together as a family unit. These females spend most of their time with each other, and will even move their den in order to hibernate closer to their companion. The cubs regard both females as parents. Sexual activity between such paired females has not yet been observed.

Kangaroos - Pair-bonding sometimes develops between female Eastern Gray Kangaroos. Partners lick, nibble, and caress each other, using their paws to rake the fur on each others head and neck. These females also sometimes court and mount each other, although such female-female sexual activity can occur among non-bonded kangaroos as well. Interestingly, heterosexual pair-bonds are not found in this species. Among Red-necked Wallabies, females frequently mount each otherm, using a slightly different position than that used by males. Males occasionally will mount each other, usually during play-fighting. They also engage in affectionate activites such as mutual grooming, licking , touching, and embracing during these sessions.

Canadian Geese - Geese sometimes form partnerships that may last many years. Some of these pairings are homosexual (both male and female). Among Canadaian geese up to 12% of pairs may be homosexual. Lesbian couples rear families together.

Cheetahs - Males and females occasionally engage in same-sex mounting. Males often live in permanent partnerships of 2 or 3 cheetahs who become closely bonded with each other, probably for life, spending over 90% of their time in each other's company. Male pair-mates frequently groom each other, defend each other, and engage in sexual activity together. On rare occasions male pairs have been observed taking care of lost cubs (non-paired males never engage in child-rearing)."

	21-03-2002 01:26									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny I'm going to post another reprint of what I consider to be the greatest post ever made on Apolyton. Mindseye, I really must buy you a drink some day, as I've used this post on every "Is homosexuality/bisexuality natural?" debate I've been in since you posted it. Nice one, Tiger.

I guess Bodd will just say " that one book doesn't prove anything"
Or will he say "look's like I learned something today"

	21-03-2002 01:32									#149
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Spinky, just when I think you could not possibly get any more obnoxious, you continue to surprise me.

I have an honest question, something I've wanted to ask various people for a long time. Faded, feel free to answer yourself. What is it like to go through life as an emotionally-stunted, ignorant, inane, snot-nosed little punk? Are you happy? Sad? Threatened? I'm just really curious.

	21-03-2002 01:37									#150
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Homosexuality and other non breeding strategies (Helper: aunts, uncles, no longer brreding grandparents) makes good sense among social creatures, dominent in there ecosystem (no predetors), and facing overpopulation or resouce shortages. Some adults give up or reduce dreeding but continue to be productive for the society. It makes sense and is often seen among other species, even when there are not proounced shortages. Given the burgening overpopulation of humans, increasing homoseuality (spread out and not concetrated in familes of gene lines) appear to be an evolutionary advantage.