27-03-2002 06:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer According to the latest census estimates, 68,000.

You got a source for that? Not that I'm saying you're wrong...but sounds a bit off.

	27-03-2002 06:07									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Okay. I see what you're getting at. But, again, those were tribal leaders and kings who profited--governments, essentially. The governments that are there are now are in no way, shape, or form related to those tribal leaders and kings. The companies, however, are the same companies--name changes and whatnot be damned.

You are splitting hairs. The people that own those companies NOW did'nt own slaves, those companies have shareholders who didn't own slaves. Yet they are expected to pay?

	27-03-2002 06:07									#33
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quote: Originally posted by orange Then that's what they should lobby for. Playing victim for something that they were never directly affected by, and seeking retribution from individuals who are not directly responsible for it, will only succeed in doing one thing as far as I'm concerned: pissing me off.

You're a smart guy. You know damned well if they lobbied for that, they'd never it get. They'd have to settle for something far less. That's why they've got to try to shoot the moon here.

And, once again--they were affected. They never benefited from the wealth that was owed their ancestors. And, they're not seeking retribution from individuals who are not directly responsible for it. They're seeking reparations from those companies that did not pay their ancestors what they were owed.

	27-03-2002 06:08									#34
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quote: Originally posted by orange You got a source for that? Not that I'm saying you're wrong...but sounds a bit off.

US Census Bureau estimates... archives. They have the next batch going up next month. Here's where I got 68,000:

http://eire.census.gov/popest/archi.../intfile2-1.txt

	27-03-2002 06:11									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Wow. Now you've REALLY lost me. What the hell are you trying to say?

You said you didnt want to go there. I took that to mean you didnt want to continue the discussion. If everyone who supports reparations for slavery would stop discussing it that would be great.

	27-03-2002 06:15									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You said you didnt want to go there. I took that to mean you didnt want to continue the discussion. If everyone who supports reparations for slavery would stop discussing it that would be great.

No. I said I wasn't following you. Meaning, I didn't have any clue what the hell you were trying to say. So try again, Sparky.

Splitting hairs? Maybe. But you can't deny that there is a much stronger link within these companies than there is between the African leaders then and the African leaders now.

Besides, it was the companies who profited from the work these slaves did. Shouldn't the companies pay for that work?

	27-03-2002 06:17									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer And, once again--they were affected. They never benefited from the wealth that was owed their ancestors. And, they're not seeking retribution from individuals who are not directly responsible for it. They're seeking reparations from those companies that did not pay their ancestors what they were owed.

I haven't seen anything, anywhere that former slaves were supposed to get reparations other than some land.

And how didn't they benefit? Where do they live now? Are they free to do what they want, including suing these companies? Slaves would never have had a choice, and if slavery had not happened they would be in Africa where they would not have the freedom or relative wealth that they have now.

	27-03-2002 06:21									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Splitting hairs? Maybe. But you can't deny that there is a much stronger link within these companies than there is between the African leaders then and the African leaders now.

Not as much as you think, the leaders of a lot of the African countries are NOT elected officials, they are hereditary kings, princes and so forth.

quote: Besides, it was the companies who profited from the work these slaves did. Shouldn't the companies pay for that work?

What about Irish and Russian immigrants?

Were they paid fairly for the work they did in sweatshops?

Or Mexican immigrants now? are they paid fairly?

	27-03-2002 06:21									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer You're a smart guy. You know damned well if they lobbied for that, they'd never it get. They'd have to settle for something far less. That's why they've got to try to shoot the moon here.

That doesn't justify it at all. Nor does it justify slavery reparations. I will not argue for the extreme just so they can get the less extreme. It's far better in my mind to ask for something reasonable than to ask for something greedy. I won't support those who argue for what they are arguing for. I will support them if they argue for what we both agree is a legitimate request.

quote: And, once again--they were affected. They never benefited from the wealth that was owed their ancestors.

Argument doesn't work.

If they weren't brought to America, they wouldn't even be half as rich as they are now, statistically speaking.

quote: And, they're not seeking retribution from individuals who are not directly responsible for it. They're seeking reparations from those companies that did not pay their ancestors what they were owed.

A corporation owned and funded now by people who never used or owned slaves, or even existed when slavery did, should not be made to pay for the mistakes of people that may or may not be related to them, and certainly not to people who were not directly affected by the injustice that is slavery.

	27-03-2002 06:22									#40
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I heard an interesting take on this today. A lawyer was discussing the civil case and he mentioned that a jury could opt for "restoration" vs restitution. You could restore the descendents of slaves to the conditions they would exist in if their ancestors had not been slaves. All it would take is a bunch of one way airline tickets.

	27-03-2002 06:24									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Besides, it was the companies who profited from the work these slaves did. Shouldn't the companies pay for that work?

Companies are made up of people. People who did not own slaves.

	27-03-2002 06:24									#42
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*Ahem*

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why should someone who was never a slaveowner cut a check to someone who was never a slave?

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc BTW, I was under the impression that ex post facto laws were illegal. If so, how do these lawsuits get over that hurdle?

	27-03-2002 06:26									#43
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AFAIK, African-Americans constituted a small portion of those who worked for these companies in indentured servitude. Would the same reparatations apply to other groups (ie Chinese, Mexican) who were utilized under the same circumstances??

Dave

	27-03-2002 06:45									#44
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I wonder if Mike Tyson would get some of this money, or say, Oprah Winfrey, Halle Berri, Tiger Woods, Denzel Washington, Colon Powell, Michael Jordan, etc, etc.

I wonder what is more efffective -- picking yourself up by the boot straps, or pissing and moaning about ancient history?

	27-03-2002 07:30									#45
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Even though I'm white, it's too easy for many other whites to simply state that slavery reparations if full of crock.

The extreme bias of these white people is overwhelming because they have no idea how past enslavement, discrimination, segregation, and disfranchisement of past generations has compounded negative effects on the present generation in terms of opportunity to improve their lives.

	27-03-2002 07:33									#46
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It's hard to pick yourself up by your bootstraps when you can't afford shoes, WE.

Look, all I'm saying is that if people can prove that they are the direct descendants of people who were slaves, and the work of those slaves enriched those corporations, then those companies should be made to pay those descendants.

Not every black person. Not only black people. Anyone who can prove that they came from those slaves. The closer the relation, the more money. The more ancestors who were the slaves in question, the more money. EDIT: I should state that I know this is not the basis of the lawsuit, or at least it doesn't appear so at this point. However, that is what *I* believe would be fair.

DD, as to the ex post facto laws... was it illegal under the Nazi regime for them to rob the Jews?

	27-03-2002 07:34									#47
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Even though I'm white, it's too easy for many other whites to simply state that slavery reparations if full of crock. The extreme bias of these white people is overwhelming because they have no idea how past enslavement, discrimination, segregation, and disfranchisement of past generations has compounded negative effects on the present generation in terms of opportunity to improve their lives.

And yet these are never explained are they?

Once again, even though you may be correct, I point out that they live better lives here than if slavery hadn't happened.

Do you argue this?

	27-03-2002 07:35									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Once again, even though you may be correct, I point out that they live better lives here than if slavery hadn't happened. Do you argue this?

No. But by the same token, don't they, for the most part, live worse lives than other people who came to the continent during the same period?

	27-03-2002 07:38									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer No. But by the same token, don't they, for the most part, live worse lives than other people who came to the continent during the same period?

So fund the slums and urban areas. Improve education and healthcare, give the people without these things a better life...don't base it just on race. Indentured servants came over poor and their ancestors are poor. It's not about race or slavery, because no one alive today participated in the practice on either end!!!

	27-03-2002 07:45									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer It's hard to pick yourself up by your bootstraps when you can't afford shoes, WE.

I know plenty of white people (among other races) who can't afford shoes. The difference is I don't go around attributing it to events that happend over a century ago. Lets say for the sake of arguement that I am of Irish decent. Do I therefore have the right to sue any British company that profitted off the labor of my ancestors?

I think their lot in life has far more to do with segregation and discrimination than slavery and I can't think of any race that hasn't endured that in some shape or form.

As a resident of the U.S. I feel it is my responsibility to own up to the wrongs my country has done in the past and I feel that should apply to everyone here. What I don't feel is that some, or all, of us have a financial responsibility for the past.

Furthermore looking to the past is counterintuative in that these people should be looking to the future not dwelling on the past.

	27-03-2002 07:46									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski And yet these are never explained are they? Once again, even though you may be correct, I point out that they live better lives here than if slavery hadn't happened. Do you argue this?

Ever heard of liberty and freedom, Tuberski??

That's what they would had if they were free either in Africa, or freed much sooner than 1865. With economic freedom and with equality, they would have had the opportunity to attain some limited amount of security through accumulated capital much as whites have done in the middle class (not working class).

No group of people ever had it better because of slavery. That is just bulls**t.

	27-03-2002 07:46									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer It's hard to pick yourself up by your bootstraps when you can't afford shoes, WE. Look, all I'm saying is that if people can prove that they are the direct descendants of people who were slaves, and the work of those slaves enriched those corporations, then those companies should be made to pay those descendants. Not every black person. Not only black people. Anyone who can prove that they came from those slaves. The closer the relation, the more money. The more ancestors who were the slaves in question, the more money. EDIT: I should state that I know this is not the basis of the lawsuit, or at least it doesn't appear so at this point. However, that is what *I* believe would be fair. DD, as to the ex post facto laws... was it illegal under the Nazi regime for them to rob the Jews?

Not that is a reperation plan that actually makes sense. Now only if black leaders were that smart .

A question I have is what are some of the companies that have benefit (just curious, not picking a fight or anything ).

	27-03-2002 07:50									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer DD, as to the ex post facto laws... was it illegal under the Nazi regime for them to rob the Jews?

Of what relevence is that to the US legal system?

	27-03-2002 07:51									#54
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to slavery reperations - Jesse Jackson can **** off.

More later, it's dinnertime.

	27-03-2002 07:52									#55
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Do any of you really think those corporations being targeted for a $1.4 trillion shakedown would remain intact? HELL NO. They'd declare bankruptcy, get liquidated and large chunk of that damn $1.4 trillion obligation would land in Uncle Sam's lap. Gee, guess who'd have fork over the money. The goddamn American taxpayer.

It'd make the freaking $15 billion or so the good ole taxpayers had to fork over recently to the airline industry look like child's play.

Gatekeeper

	27-03-2002 07:54									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun That's what they would had if they were free either in Africa, or freed much sooner than 1865.

I'd hardly call Africa the land of freedom and opportunity.

	27-03-2002 07:56									#57
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WhiteElephants -- maybe if Africa was not drained part of its manpower resources by Arab, European, and American slave traders, Africa would be in a better condition today.

But that is speculation.

	27-03-2002 08:00									#58
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I think WhiteElephants might be referring to the fact that most slaves that were shipped to the US were originally slaves in Africa.

	27-03-2002 08:00									#59
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IIRC, the African tribes themselves were just as complicit in the slave trade as their colonial "oppressors".

Dave

	27-03-2002 08:02									#60
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You want Africa to have more manpower today?!
You're joking right?
Plenty of African states either practiced their own slavery or were not subjected to losing significant portions of their populace. These places today are in no better shape than other parts of the African continent that were "victims" of the slave trade.