27-03-2002 08:02									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave IIRC, the African tribes themselves were just as complicit in the slave trade as their colonial "oppressors". Dave

Yeah, so tell me something that I do not know.

	27-03-2002 08:03									#62
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Ever heard of liberty and freedom, Tuberski?? That's what they would had if they were free either in Africa, or freed much sooner than 1865. With economic freedom and with equality, they would have had the opportunity to attain some limited amount of security through accumulated capital much as whites have done in the middle class (not working class). No group of people ever had it better because of slavery. That is just bulls**t.

Do they not have liberty and freedom?

Do you know they STILL have slavery in africa?

If they were still in Africa,Do you think that they would have accumulated capital as much as whites have done in the middle class?
So, reparations will make everything better. Followed by the last sentence in your post.

	27-03-2002 08:04									#63
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by MrFun WhiteElephants -- maybe if Africa was not drained part of its manpower resources by Arab, European, and American slave traders, Africa would be in a better condition today. But that is speculation.

And maybe if America wasn't drained part of its manpower and resources by Britain it would be in better condition today. We can go on like this forever and it doesn't change the facts.

Still no one has answered wether or not people like Oprah Winfrey (who may or may not have had ancestors who are slaves) are entitled to these reperations given the sqaulor she most certainly must live in. Isn't this really about poor people wanting money from rich people then?

	27-03-2002 08:21									#64
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants Still no one has answered wether or not people like Oprah Winfrey (who may or may not have had ancestors who are slaves) are entitled to these reperations given the sqaulor she most certainly must live in. Isn't this really about poor people wanting money from rich people then?

If she could prove that she were the direct descendant of slaves who were used by these corporations, then yes, in my opinion, she is entitled to compensation.

This isn't really about poor people wanting money from rich people. This is about people who don't have a fair stake in this country trying to level the playing field.


DD: It doesn't really apply in the US legal system, no. But it certainly applies morally. And any company that tries to use that argument in court is going to have the biggest PR nightmare any of us have ever seen.

	27-03-2002 08:25									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Do they not have liberty and freedom? Do you know they STILL have slavery in africa? If they were still in Africa,Do you think that they would have accumulated capital as much as whites have done in the middle class? So, reparations will make everything better. Followed by the last sentence in your post.

Strictly speaking, blacks--for the most part--still do not have as much liberty or freedom as whites do in this country. Things are changing for the better, but there are still major setbacks at times (such as the purging of the voter rolls in Florida before the 2000 election).

We can't do a whole lot about the slavery in Africa today. But we can try to put our own house in order, try to make good on all the dirty **** in our past.

No one is going to make these companies go bankrupt. If they go bankrupt--no money. They're just going to try to get what they can.

	27-03-2002 08:30									#66
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer This isn't really about poor people wanting money from rich people. This is about people who don't have a fair stake in this country trying to level the playing field.

I realize that's what you're trying to make it out to be, but evidence suggests otherwise. There are plenty of people who don't have a "fair stake" in this country, do you propose we just start handing out money to them as well? What you're suggesting by "leveling the playing field" is akin to socialism or communism, which is probably why no one is buying it. I also see no evidence that giving people money is going to "level the playing field" at all. And how. may I ask, does giving money to Oprah Winfrey help achieve these ends?

	27-03-2002 08:31									#67
	Got spare money?

Ha!
Those people who want "reparations" are merely slacking, lazy racist pigs who want money for their "psychological damages"
ugh.

Let the past be the past- It means nothing- the sooner people disassociate themselves from the past and work for the future, the sooner they will "get out of their rut"

and what is this "Union of races" I find that the biggest BS of anything that ever existed. The sooner people don't affiliate themselves with races, the sooner people will be people.

Some of the worst things that ever were done were done in the name of "race relations."

-
My prediction is that in a hundred years the "white male protestant" will be trodden upon by all others because in the past "he" oppressed them.

The sooner you realize that each person is an individual, a number, and not a "race" then the sooner you realize that each person makes his own choices in his own time.

	27-03-2002 08:31									#68
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: BTW, I was under the impression that ex post facto laws were illegal. If so, how do these lawsuits get over that hurdle?

According to Calder v. Bull the prohibition against ex post facto laws only applies to criminal laws (not civil laws).

	27-03-2002 08:31									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer DD: It doesn't really apply in the US legal system, no. But it certainly applies morally. And any company that tries to use that argument in court is going to have the biggest PR nightmare any of us have ever seen.

I'm sorry but any lawyer that doesn't bring up the fact that this suit apparently has no legal leg to stand on doesn't deserve to retain his/her license.

	27-03-2002 08:35									#70
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Ha! Those people who want "reparations" are merely slacking, lazy racist pigs who want money for their "psychological damages" ugh.

Bullshit. Guynemer's proposal isn't unreasonable.

	27-03-2002 08:43									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Ramo According to Calder v. Bull the prohibition against ex post facto laws only applies to criminal laws (not civil laws).

Fletcher v. Peck looks to be the current law, Ramo.

	27-03-2002 08:43									#72
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Let the past be the past- It means nothing-

The past means nothing?

You know, this was a pretty intelligent discussion going on here; at least, I thought so.

But that is, without question, the single most idiotic thing I've read today.

	27-03-2002 08:44									#73
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

You cant do it- it is absurd.

We owe nothing to the descendants of people who died-

We owe nothing to the descendants of blacks
we owe nothing to the descendants of Amerindians.

Do what you can for the living ones who WERE exploited... But since they are humans, they have the same chances as everyone else. And have had the same chances... If you are going to sue, then sue the cities with segregation!

People are still alive who were persecuted against in that way- don't sue people who were merely exploiting property legally. (And NO I do not consider blacks "Property"; but at the time they were considered as such. You can blame them for exploiting blacks- but considering that it was LEGAL AT THE TIME; they should not be able to sue. If antying they should sue the government which made Slavery legal. But not the comapnies.)

	27-03-2002 08:48									#74
	Get a bigger avatar today!

nevermind

	27-03-2002 08:53									#75
	I hope I'm not misunderstanding you. Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Dino, are you nuts? Fletcher v. Peck has a good century and a half over Calder v. Bull.

Fletcher v. Peck does seem to be the current law, Ramo.

Calder v Bull (1798)

Fletcher v. Peck (1810)

	27-03-2002 09:20									#76
	Increase Your PM Length

What a great idea! If only all history was recorded, i could find the descendants of the Vikings, Romans, and god knows who else who enslaved, raped, and killed my ancestors, i can become rich beyond my wildest dreams!!!

Of course, it gets a little complex when we trace the flow-on disadvantages down the generations all the way to me, divided by all the other descendants of my ancestors, but what do i care? I'll be RICH!!!

Of course, after i've paid out all that money for the bad things that my ancestors did, divided by my fellow descendants, i may actually have to pay more money than i make

Why exactly should reparations be made only where records exist of injustices? In any case, you can bet that the gaps will be "presumed" in order to fit the desired result

God help us if we ever give equal rights to chickens! We'll be paying them back for a million years!!!

	27-03-2002 09:20									#77
	Remove this text

I was mixed up. I thought Calder was in the 1950's for some odd reason. Anyways, here are newere Court decisions that have affirmed Calder:

Carpenter v. Commonwealth, Johannessen v. United States, Bugajewitz v. Adams, and Mahler v. Eby

Civil ex post facto laws are perfectly Constitutional.

	27-03-2002 09:47									#78
	Increase the size of your Attachments

A few comments before I head to bed.

According to NPR, the involvement of these corporations is as follows:
Aetna or its corporate predecessors wrote insurance poliicies on some southern slaves.
One of the founders of Fleet Financial was a man who engaged in the slave trade.
Part of CSX was built with slave labor.

By suing corporations the plaintiffs have made some attempt to sue current legal entities who may actually have had some involvement.

This does not mean that all or any substantial part of any of these corporations was built with slave labor. For example, Aetna wrote plenty of other insurance policies, and large chunks of CSX were built north of the Mason-Dixon line or after 1865.

According to the New York Times, the suit is filed on behalf of all 35 million current African Americans. I think the plaintiffs would have been on a lot frimer ground if they had bothered to make name as plaintiffs only those people whose ancestors had actually done the work in question.

Guynemer:
Do you have a cite for the $1.4 trillion?

Just as a matter of perspective, if AETNA made say $1 per person as a result of insuring slaves, the present value, at six percent interest for 137 years would be about $2,900. (Remember that a dollar was worth MUCH more 137 years ago.)

	27-03-2002 09:48									#79
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Anyways, here are newere Court decisions that have affirmed Calder:

Do you know where I could find a summary for those decisions?

	27-03-2002 09:56									#80
	Suffering from ads?

I'd submit that the most fair course of action would be to send everyone of African descent whose ancestors were brought over in the slave trade to be given an apology and put on a plane back to Africa, from where they can apply for US immigration/citizenship if they wish.

But no, these ****heads want to have their cake and eat it, too.

	27-03-2002 10:13									#81
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Guynemer: Do you have a cite for the $1.4 trillion?

The CNN article on this story.

	27-03-2002 10:14									#82
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Lung What a great idea! If only all history was recorded, i could find the descendants of the Vikings, Romans, and god knows who else who enslaved, raped, and killed my ancestors, i can become rich beyond my wildest dreams!!! Of course, it gets a little complex when we trace the flow-on disadvantages down the generations all the way to me, divided by all the other descendants of my ancestors, but what do i care? I'll be RICH!!! Of course, after i've paid out all that money for the bad things that my ancestors did, divided by my fellow descendants, i may actually have to pay more money than i make Why exactly should reparations be made only where records exist of injustices? In any case, you can bet that the gaps will be "presumed" in order to fit the desired result God help us if we ever give equal rights to chickens! We'll be paying them back for a million years!!!

Here's the argument fallacies you have used:

1) strawman argument

2) slippery slope argument

3) emotive language argument

You are deliberately distorting the intelligent argument in regards to one specific group -- descendants of African slaves in the Americas, Middle East, and Europe. Try not to distort the argument, ok??

	27-03-2002 10:16									#83
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I'd submit that the most fair course of action would be to send everyone of African descent whose ancestors were brought over in the slave trade to be given an apology and put on a plane back to Africa, from where they can apply for US immigration/citizenship if they wish. But no, these ****heads want to have their cake and eat it, too.

Seriously, that is the most disgusting, hateful, ignorant statement that comes up during these discussions, and I'm tired of keeping my mouth shut about it. "They don't like it, they can go home." **** you, DF. THIS is their home. And they got screwed, and continue to get screwed. Take off your damned blinders. And everyone else who has used this argument. It's insulting, and does your cause harm instead of good.

	27-03-2002 10:19									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith According to the New York Times, the suit is filed on behalf of all 35 million current African Americans. I think the plaintiffs would have been on a lot frimer ground if they had bothered to make name as plaintiffs only those people whose ancestors had actually done the work in question.

I agree; as is, the lawsuit is flawed. It ought to be refined, if only to gain more sympathy from the public at large. (You're the second person who's said that they would support it or that it would be on firmer ground if they had limited it to direct descendants.)

	27-03-2002 10:20									#85
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Lung What a great idea! If only all history was recorded, i could find the descendants of the Vikings, Romans, and god knows who else who enslaved, raped, and killed my ancestors, i can become rich beyond my wildest dreams!!!

For the 18765th time, this is about corporations, NOT individuals, NOT families, NOT governments.

	27-03-2002 10:23									#86
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Seriously, that is the most disgusting, hateful, ignorant statement that comes up during these discussions, and I'm tired of keeping my mouth shut about it. "They don't like it, they can go home." **** you, DF. THIS is their home. And they got screwed, and continue to get screwed. Take off your damned blinders. And everyone else who has used this argument. It's insulting, and does your cause harm instead of good.

But wouldn't you agree that they are better off today in the US than dying of AIDs in some POS African country? Of COURSE their ancestors were screwed, but like pretty much everyone else who came to America, their descendants are 100 times better off than their ancestors. Seems to me they are just greedy SOBs who want to rob American society - which is esentially what suing corporations for $1.4 trillion is doing. And it seems to me the fact that they are alive and well and able to live in this country - regardless of the injustice of slavery - is reparation enough.

	27-03-2002 10:27									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight --- blacks are better off today because of slavery.

AGAIN, BULLS**T. I would expect this kind of irrational justification from racists and white supremacists, not from you David, or from some of the other Apolyton members.

Slavery has never improved the lives of those actually enslaved, nor their descendants.

	27-03-2002 10:29									#88
	Got spare money?

Are they better off here? Yes. How does that, in any way, justify saying, "They want reparations? **** 'em. Send 'em back to Africa." Honestly, it makes you sound like a redneck with the Stars and Bars hanging in the rear window of his pick-up, on his way to a Klan cross-burning.

Are they better off here than in Africa? YES. Are they as well off as the descendants of other people who moved here during the same period? NO. NO. NO.

	27-03-2002 10:30									#89
	Support Apolyton

Hey smart guy, I never said blacks are well off today because of slavery, I'm saying it's an undisputable fact that on the whole they are better off here than they would be in Africa - which still doesn't justify slavery, but these people (as well as others) have eaten up billions upon billions in terms of social services and such, why should they get more?

	27-03-2002 10:33									#90
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Are they better off here than in Africa? YES. Are they as well off as the descendants of other people who moved here during the same period? NO. NO. NO.

Of course not.
My point is simple. Their main concern is that their descendants were forced out of their homes to come work on plantations.
Fine, that was wrong, I of course agree.
My solution would be to give anyone who wanted it free passage back to Africa, but anyone who chose to stay is out of luck on reparations - we take the fact that they live in the US and have received and continue to receive billions in social services/welfare, and call it even.