27-03-2002 12:01									#121
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quote: Maybe Southerners require like 12 hours of sleep just to retain normal thinking skills while Yanks require only 8 hours of sleep, and they're still super-intelligent.

Yeah and maybe our dreams are just about whipping the **** out of Yankees and ****ing beautiful women, so I'll go ahead and take the extra 4 hours

	27-03-2002 21:44									#122
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Ramo -

quote: "The sentiment that ex post facto laws are against natural right is so strong in the United States that few, if any, of the State constitutions have failed to proscribe them. The Federal Constitution indeed interdicts them in criminal cases only; but they are equally unjust in civil as in criminal cases, and the omission of a caution which would have been right, does not justify the doing what is wrong." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac McPherson, 1813. ME 13:327 No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed. -- The United States Constitution Section 10. No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility. -- The United States Constitution

Looks like I stand corrected, unless of course Jefferson didn't know what he was talking about. But I don't know where he got the "criminal cases only" since it doesn't appear in the Constitution.

	27-03-2002 21:59									#123
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I'm all for going after big corporations, but this is stupid. Pardon me, but this sounds like a bunch of poor pot smoking porch monkeys with nothing better to do than to blame other people for their own shortcomings in life.

My family came to the United States in 1958, not speaking a word of English. And they were able to succeed. Everyone has the same opprotunities, and those African Americans who feel that slavery 150 years ago is preventing them from succeeding are wrong. It's YOUR OWN LAZINESS THAT IS PREVENTING YOU.

Stop the pity party. Slavery happened, its over with, GET ON WITH YOUR DAMN LIVES AND WORK FOR A LIVING INSTEAD OF LOOKING FOR A HANDOUT!!!

	27-03-2002 22:03									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I'm all for going after big corporations, but this is stupid. Pardon me, but this sounds like a bunch of poor pot smoking porch monkeys with nothing better to do than to blame other people for their own shortcomings in life. My family came to the United States in 1958, not speaking a word of English. And they were able to succeed. Everyone has the same opprotunities, and those African Americans who feel that slavery 150 years ago is preventing them from succeeding are wrong. It's YOUR OWN LAZINESS THAT IS PREVENTING YOU. Stop the pity party. Slavery happened, its over with, GET ON WITH YOUR DAMN LIVES AND WORK FOR A LIVING INSTEAD OF LOOKING FOR A HANDOUT!!!

That is where you're wrong. Different groups of people do not have the same opportunities, because each group of people have their own unique history in the United States.

African-Americans have a much different history than many European immigrant families who arrived in the United States. Read your history.

And no, slavery reparations would not be an unfair handout for the legitimate descendants whose opportunities are still denied to them because of their people's history.

I would expect racists and white supremacists to use the word lazy or laziness as a lame excuse to argue against slavery reparations, not from you or other Apolyton members.

	27-03-2002 22:14									#125
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MrFun... I have studied history... but thank you for your concern.

The Catholics in the 14th and 15th centuries persecuted millions in the Inquisitions... should the church now be forced to pay reparations to the descendants?

These people are looking for a handout, plain and simple. All of my friends who are black agree with me. This isn't about doing whats right, its about a bunch of lazy asses wanting a handout.

Hard work creates success in America. I had many friends in high school who came from very poor families of all races. There was one constant. Regardless of what color they were, they were poor because they were lazy, or had other mitigating circumstances like single parenthood. Having said that:

NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN THE UNITED STATES IS POOR, IMPOVERISHED, OR OTHERWISE DISADVANTAGED BECAUSE OF SLAVERY.

I present one challenge to these people wanting handouts. PROVE IT.

PROVE THAT SLAVERY IS THE CAUSE OF YOUR PROBLEMS IN LIFE.

And MrFun... unless you can prove it, don't bother posting saying you disagree with me. You only make yourself look ignorant.

	27-03-2002 22:33									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Sava And MrFun... unless you can prove it, don't bother posting saying you disagree with me. You only make yourself look ignorant.

Frankly, Sava, you made yourself look ignorant with your "pot-smoking porch monkeys" remark. I still haven't decided whether or not its worth it to report you to the mods.

Using racial slurs do not, in any way, shape, or form, help your argument, child.

	27-03-2002 23:43									#127
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quote: Germany recognized the Geneva Convention, Ramo. They just didn't follow it.

I was referring to Hitler's final solution, actually.

quote: Looks like I stand corrected, unless of course Jefferson didn't know what he was talking about.

What do you mean?

Jefferson didn't assert any federal prohibition against civil ex post facto laws.

As for his morality, I really couldn't care less. He was an opportunistic politician and his personal morality was quite a bit worse.

quote: But I don't know where he got the "criminal cases only" since it doesn't appear in the Constitution.

From the aforementioned reasoning in Calder v. Bull, most likely.

	28-03-2002 00:48									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Frankly, Sava, you made yourself look ignorant with your "pot-smoking porch monkeys" remark. I still haven't decided whether or not its worth it to report you to the mods. Using racial slurs do not, in any way, shape, or form, help your argument, child.

LoL...
It wasn't a slur against the color of their skin, its a slur against what they are. The people asking for reparations are poor blacks. The kind that sit on their porches all day and smoke pot.

Not all black people are porch monkeys. And not all porch monkeys are black.

They won't get their money, so it doesn't matter regardless. I'm just calling it like it is. If you can't handle it, then go hide under your bed.

	28-03-2002 03:39									#129
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Guynemeyer- I didnt see you respond to me- thus I will not repeat what I said, but will wish you to reference my post on page 3

I will also add this:

The Difference between the Jewish descendants having their heirlooms returned and these blacks stealing money from the companies is this:


For the Jews-
1.)That is family. This is what the family owed
2.) It is not reparations; they are receiving what is rightfully their families.

And once again. This was done in the time before slavery was outlawed, thus it should not be an issue since it was legal at the time.

People cannot create a law against smoking, then fine people who smoked once 10 years ago, then quit.

That Is what you are proposing.

	28-03-2002 05:50									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Sava MrFun... I have studied history... but thank you for your concern. The Catholics in the 14th and 15th centuries persecuted millions in the Inquisitions... should the church now be forced to pay reparations to the descendants? These people are looking for a handout, plain and simple. All of my friends who are black agree with me. This isn't about doing whats right, its about a bunch of lazy asses wanting a handout. Hard work creates success in America. I had many friends in high school who came from very poor families of all races. There was one constant. Regardless of what color they were, they were poor because they were lazy, or had other mitigating circumstances like single parenthood. Having said that: NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN THE UNITED STATES IS POOR, IMPOVERISHED, OR OTHERWISE DISADVANTAGED BECAUSE OF SLAVERY. I present one challenge to these people wanting handouts. PROVE IT. PROVE THAT SLAVERY IS THE CAUSE OF YOUR PROBLEMS IN LIFE. And MrFun... unless you can prove it, don't bother posting saying you disagree with me. You only make yourself look ignorant.

Slavery prevented black families from accumulating any capital through working for wages or a salary over generations as working class and middle class white families have.
After slavery was abolished, segregation, job discrimination, and the institution of sharecropping continued denying black families from accumulating capital for their next generation to build upon. This type of discrimination was, in some ways, more severe than what white immigrant families suffered from. Ever hear of Jim Crow laws??

You see, since white families were never enslaved in the United States, they were able to work for wages (however terribly low they were), and that is why you have examples of how later generations of white families are better off, due to inter-generational accumulation of capital and then moving into the middle class or upper class.

This is how slavery has caused problems for the lives of the present generation of low class or working class African-Americans today.

I cannot believe you cannot see how slavery affects today's generation of black families.

	28-03-2002 05:53									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Sava They won't get their money, so it doesn't matter regardless. I'm just calling it like it is. If you can't handle it, then go hide under your bed.

You are a hate-filled, pathetic little man, or your "explanation" fools nobody.

	28-03-2002 05:54									#132
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud The Difference between the Jewish descendants having their heirlooms returned and these blacks stealing money from the companies is this: For the Jews- 1.)That is family. This is what the family owed 2.) It is not reparations; they are receiving what is rightfully their families.

How is that any different from what I have proposed?

	28-03-2002 06:04									#133
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Okay let's say they get reparations.....1.4 TRILLION!?!?!?!?!?!?

	28-03-2002 06:06									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Okay let's say they get reparations.....1.4 TRILLION!?!?!?!?!?!?

Well, they're asking for that much in the hopes of getting considerably less. You want an inch, you ask for a mile; that's the way the game is played in civil courts.

	28-03-2002 06:08									#135
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I thought I read somewhere 35 million african-americans, that's 40,000$ a piece. Fine, until someone else is born...do the reparations stop? Why should they? Why shouldn't they?

	28-03-2002 06:09									#136
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Even if they got 40,000 bucks apiece is that going to square them away? No way in hell.

That is only a down payment on a house.

	28-03-2002 06:09									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski I thought I read somewhere 35 million african-americans, that's 40,000$ a piece. Fine, until someone else is born...do the reparations stop? Why should they? Why shouldn't they?

I imagine that would be a clause in the suit... it would absolve the corporations in question of all further liability.

	28-03-2002 06:10									#138
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Guy - what is being debated is the legality of a civil lawsuit for 1.4 trillion dollars of slavery reparations.

It is unjustifiable, regardless of whether or not they're asking for a mile just to get an inch.

Speaking of which: that's an awful practice. Or should we revert to a bargaining style market, where prices are set at ridiculous amounts, and people haggle their way down to a price that suits them?

Simply put - ask for what you deserve. What these people deserve, in cash, is zero dollars and zero cents. What urbanites in general deserve is education and healthcare funding, and if they raise the corporate tax to fund it, than fine by me.

	28-03-2002 06:13									#139
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quote: Originally posted by orange Guy - what is being debated is the legality of a civil lawsuit for 1.4 trillion dollars of slavery reparations. It is unjustifiable, regardless of whether or not they're asking for a mile just to get an inch. Speaking of which: that's an awful practice. Or should we revert to a bargaining style market, where prices are set at ridiculous amounts, and people haggle their way down to a price that suits them?

Hey, I don't like the practice of it either; but that's just the way it's done. They certainly can't be held to blame for the way civil suits work.

And I don't think it's unjustifiable. By DC's above criteria, it is perfectly justifiable--at least my proposal is.

	28-03-2002 06:20									#140
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sorry, what is your proposal again?

	28-03-2002 06:33									#141
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quote: Originally posted by orange sorry, what is your proposal again?

That reparations be paid to those who can prove direct descent from those slaves who worked for those companies. The fewer generations separating them, the more money. The more ancestors who worked for those corporations, the more money.

Can't prove descent? Tough noogies.

This fits the reasoning DC holds, and it also allows for non-black slaves to share the wealth.

	28-03-2002 06:57									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer That reparations be paid to those who can prove direct descent from those slaves who worked for those companies. The fewer generations separating them, the more money. The more ancestors who worked for those corporations, the more money. Can't prove descent? Tough noogies. This fits the reasoning DC holds, and it also allows for non-black slaves to share the wealth.

So if Michael Jordan can prove that his grandfather was a slave for a few years and worked for the tobacco industry, MJ is entitled to 40 some thousand dollars?

Why?

	28-03-2002 06:59									#143
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quote: Originally posted by orange So if Michael Jordan can prove that his grandfather was a slave for a few years and worked for the tobacco industry, MJ is entitled to 40 some thousand dollars? Why?

Because he can prove that his grandfather was a slave for a few years and worked for the tobacco industry (or a corporation named in the lawsuit). MJ's current status has nothing to do with the fact that the descendants of that slave are owed that money.

	28-03-2002 07:03									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Because he can prove that his grandfather was a slave for a few years and worked for the tobacco industry (or a corporation named in the lawsuit).

So the labor was not Michael Jordan's, and Michael Jordan did not contribute to that company thus does not deserve money. Correct?

quote: MJ's current status has nothing to do with the fact that the descendants of that slave are owed that money.

The descendants technically are not owed any money. Who is to decide how much they should have been paid. Was slavery a horrible injustice - yes. But that doesn't take away from the fact that, at the time, they were working legally for no wage.

That aside, your argument says that descendants of slavery are less well off than white workers. But there are a good majority of the populace that are less well off than MJ currently is. So why does he deserve money for work he didn't do from someone who didn't have slaves?

	28-03-2002 07:08									#145
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You see, since white families were never enslaved in the United States, they were able to work for wages (however terribly low they were), and that is why you have examples of how later generations of white families are better off, due to inter-generational accumulation of capital and then moving into the middle class or upper class.

Balls! Intergenerational accumlation of capital? What hogwash! Where are you getting this crap? I assume you are aware of inheritance tax, no? By your little theory my whole family should be filthy rich, which is hardly the case. And for your information the social system in this country isn't based on the caste system. While you do have people on the way up the ladder you also have people on the way down. There is no constant class you are born into or achieve and infinitely maintain.

	28-03-2002 07:12									#146
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yeah, not to mention White Indentured Servants.

	28-03-2002 07:18									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Because he can prove that his grandfather was a slave for a few years and worked for the tobacco industry (or a corporation named in the lawsuit). MJ's current status has nothing to do with the fact that the descendants of that slave are owed that money.

You want your cake and you want to eat it to. First, is this about helping the disadvantaged that are that way because of slavery, or is it about repaying people who were never paid? If, in fact, people such as MJ were so disadvantaged that this $40,000 is going to be godsend how do you explain the advantages they must have taken advantage of to get to where they are now? How does Oprah's phenominal success as an entertainer fit within the paradigm of oppression and repression that you've boxed every African American decendent of slavery into? How can you argue that the decendents of slavery have been so keenly disadvantaged when there are a plethora of examples to suggest that they weren't quite as disadvanted as you thought? How is it that Orprah Winfrey is so disadvantaged that she is this countries most well paid and popular entertainer? She cannot possibly exist within your paradigm, no?

Is this not a perfect example of PC liberalism run amok?

	28-03-2002 07:19									#148
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants Balls! Intergenerational accumlation of capital? What hogwash! Where are you getting this crap? I assume you are aware of inheritance tax, no? By your little theory my whole family should be filthy rich, which is hardly the case. And for your information the social system in this country isn't based on the caste system. While you do have people on the way up the ladder you also have people on the way down. There is no constant class you are born into or achieve and infinitely maintain.

l

Whites who are ignorant on how slavery affected blacks hoot and harp about how hard their immigrant ancestors worked and with some, succeeded into moving into the middle class in spite of discrimination. Where did I say that we should ignore the factor of inheritance taxes??

There are historical accounts from white individuals on how they have improved their lives after their ancestors began as indentures servitude, which was a different system from slavery.

Blacks never had the same opportunities that white immigrants had. White immigrants never suffered the same degree of institutional racism that blacks have suffered from.

	28-03-2002 07:21									#149
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This seems to be a reasonably well-justified civil suit. Certain corporations caused material harm to certain individuals. These individuals have died, but their estates have passed on to their children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren. The corporations can easily be sued by these descendants.

It's no more ridiculous than any of dozens of other cases before the courts. Those who will lose stock value due to this lawsuit should have done their research better. Too bad.

Is there any statute of limitations on civil suits in the US?

	28-03-2002 07:38									#150
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I heard on MSNBC today that Aetna had insured 33 slaves, I assume as proerty and not life insurance. Now who took out these policies? Shouldn't THEY also be held accountable for this 1.4 trillion? Didn't they get the money from these policies?