27-03-2002 10:35									#91
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Hey smart guy, I never said blacks are well off today because of slavery, I'm saying it's an undisputable fact that on the whole they are better off here than they would be in Africa - which still doesn't justify slavery, but these people (as well as others) have eaten up billions upon billions in terms of social services and such, why should they get more?

1) Welfare never helps people living in poverty to move into the middle class, so don't say that welfare recipients are living the easy life. It sucks for people to remain in poverty and on welfare, or the working class -- but you probably would never know that.

2) The reason blacks would be better off here than Africa, is simply because the states of Africa were deprived of their independent development through Arabic exploitation of Africa, European colonialism, and complacency/support of African rulers in the slave trade.

3) Just because they're better off in this country than Africa, does not mean that we should not seriously consider an effective way to implement some kind of slavery reparations program.

	27-03-2002 10:37									#92
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd My solution would be to give anyone who wanted it free passage back to Africa, but anyone who chose to stay is out of luck on reparations - we take the fact that they live in the US and have received and continue to receive billions in social services/welfare, and call it even.

How, exactly, does that make it even?

	27-03-2002 10:38									#93
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quote: 1) Welfare never helps people living in poverty to move into the middle class, so don't say that welfare recipients are living the easy life. It sucks for people to remain in poverty and on welfare, or the working class -- but you probably would never know that.

Hey I agree - I wanna end welfare. But the point is since they've already robbed us blind, enough is enough.

quote: 2) The reason blacks would be better off here than Africa, is simply because the states of Africa were deprived of their independent development through Arabic exploitation of Africa, European colonialism, and complacency/support of African rulers in the slave trade.

What does that have to with anything? I dunno which fancy logical fallacy that is, but I know it is one

quote: 3) Just because they're better off in this country than Africa, does not mean that we should not seriously consider an effective way to implement some kind of slavery reparations program.

Yes it does, when taken together with the rest of my argument.

	27-03-2002 10:41									#94
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quote: How, exactly, does that make it even?

Because even if I were to concede that blacks were still economically hurt because of slavery, our bullshit social programs, dollar for dollar in the last half of the 20th Century would equal or exceed whatever value you want to bring out regarding current consequences of slavery.

	27-03-2002 10:42									#95
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Hey I agree - I wanna end welfare. But the point is since they've already robbed us blind, enough is enough. What does that have to with anything? I dunno which fancy logical fallacy that is, but I know it is one Yes it does, when taken together with the rest of my argument.

You misunderstand -- I NEVER want the welfare program abolished. It needs to be revamped or improved to make it effective. In conjunction with job training and other commitment requirements, welfare needs to be temporary and help people get OUT OF poverty.

quote:

2) The reason blacks would be better off here than Africa, is simply because the states of Africa were deprived of their independent development through Arabic exploitation of Africa, European colonialism, and complacency/support of African rulers in the slave trade.

Why don't you understand the above quote of mine??
Africa has permanently been affected by European colonialism, Arabic exploitation, and internal support of the slave trade. You cannot ignore historical factors.

	27-03-2002 10:44									#96
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Because even if I were to concede that blacks were still economically hurt because of slavery, our bullshit social programs, dollar for dollar in the last half of the 20th Century would equal or exceed whatever value you want to bring out regarding current consequences of slavery.

Bullshit social programs? How exactly are those reparations for slavery?

They've "robbed us blind"? Dear lord, if you were any more of a pot, I'd cook pasta in you.

	27-03-2002 10:45									#97
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quote: Why don't you understand the above quote of mine?? Africa has permanently been affected by European colonialism, Arabic exploitation, and internal support of the slave trade. You cannot ignore historical factors.

Slavery in America has zip to do with European colonial policies, and you know it.
You could also say the Irish got screwed by Oliver Cromwell, and Eastern Europe got ****ed by Attila the Hun, but that still has nothing to do with anything.

	27-03-2002 10:49									#98
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quote: Bullshit social programs? How exactly are those reparations for slavery?

Whoever said I did? My point was that it's not as if these people are hurting for survival or comfort, especially when stacked up against Africans.

quote: They've "robbed us blind"? Dear lord, if you were any more of a pot, I'd cook pasta in you.

Well I certainly feel robbed everytime some receieves a welfare check or food stamp. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way - you consent to this theft and I do not.

	27-03-2002 10:49									#99
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun 1) Welfare never helps people living in poverty to move into the middle class, so don't say that welfare recipients are living the easy life. It sucks for people to remain in poverty and on welfare, or the working class -- but you probably would never know that.

Mr. Fun, why is welfare even relevent in this instance? But now that you mention it, if people want to recieve reperations from the government they should be stripped of any and all acess to social welfare programs for the rest of thier natural life.

	27-03-2002 10:50									#100
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun 2) The reason blacks would be better off here than Africa, is simply because the states of Africa were deprived of their independent development through Arabic exploitation of Africa, European colonialism, and complacency/support of African rulers in the slave trade.

Have a look at Africa and tell me that it would have done better left to it's own devices I don't think it's because they're black, per se, but the proof is in the pudding - Africa is the basketcase of planet earth, and it shows no signs of abating.

I won't draw any conclusions, but the facts speak for themselves.

	27-03-2002 10:52									#101
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quote: Mr. Fun, why is welfare even relevent in this instance? But now that you mention it, if people want to recieve reperations from the government they should be stripped of any and all acess to social welfare programs for the rest of thier natural life.

The problem there, of course, is that this lawsuit isn't about righting a wrong nearly as much as it is about money and greed.

	27-03-2002 10:53									#102
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Mr. Fun, why is welfare even relevent in this instance? But now that you mention it, if people want to recieve reperations from the government they should be stripped of any and all acess to social welfare programs for the rest of thier natural life.

*cough* Not from government... from corporations... *cough*

(Although, the Green in me wants to say, "Corporations are the government!")

	27-03-2002 10:55									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer *cough* Not from government... from corporations... *cough*

You might want to read the first sentence of my post and that cough sounds nasty. Maybe you could get Strangelove to treat you.

	27-03-2002 10:56									#104
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Slavery in America has zip to do with European colonial policies, and you know it. You could also say the Irish got screwed by Oliver Cromwell, and Eastern Europe got ****ed by Attila the Hun, but that still has nothing to do with anything.

Absolutely. Making excuses for your own predicament and blaming everyone else only cements yourself in your rut. Look at Mugabe. He actively encourages rape, murder, torture, and every other form of violence at his disposal to suit his own political agenda and blames colonialism as an excuse to committ atrocities against mankind

Still, i don't entirely share your opinion on welfare because compassion is the basis of civilisation and you wouldn't be better off if it didn't exist anyway. You can lead a horse to water (welfare) but you can't make it drink (socialism)

	27-03-2002 10:58									#105
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You might want to read the first sentence of my post and that cough sounds nasty. Maybe you could get Strangelove to treat you.

Not following about your first sentence.

About the cough... are you kidding? I'm in med school; I know firsthand what a big crock modern medicine is.

	27-03-2002 10:59									#106
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quote: Absolutely. Making excuses for your own predicament and blaming everyone else only cements yourself in your rut. Look at Mugabe. He actively encourages rape, murder, torture, and every other form of violence at his disposal to suit his own political agenda and blames colonialism as an excuse to committ atrocities against mankind

Absolutely - look at the fools running South Africa, too.

quote: compassion is the basis of civilisation

Hmmm...I disagree - ever read Ayn Rand?

	27-03-2002 11:02									#107
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Slavery in America has zip to do with European colonial policies, and you know it. You could also say the Irish got screwed by Oliver Cromwell, and Eastern Europe got ****ed by Attila the Hun, but that still has nothing to do with anything.

Damn you! Listen to what YOU are saying!

First, you said they would be worse off in Africa, then I simply stated why that would be the case, then I stated why your reasoning does not work in that instance.

And you think European colonialism had nothing to do with the trans-Atlantic slave trade, nor the slavery systems in the Americas?? They do, believe it or not.

And with the welfare statement -- David provided a distorted view on welfare, and I thought I had to clarify how welfare actually worked.

	27-03-2002 11:05									#108
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Ramo -

quote: Civil ex post facto laws are perfectly Constitutional.

The Constitution prohibits the states and the Congress from passing ex post facto legislation. It contains no exceptions for anything. The fact the courts have conveniently ruled the prohibition doesn't include tax laws doesn't make them constitutional. Well, what if the Congress passed a tax law increasing our taxes from the day we were born or even before that?

In the section that prohibits the Congress from passing such laws it gives no explanation as to why, but in the section prohibiting the states from passing such laws it does explain why - which is reasonable since the Framers were removing a power from the states - the reason is that ex post facto laws can have the effect of damaging existing contracts. If you increase a tax on people after they've paid their taxes and planned on the future, you've put them in a financial bind that can damage their existing contracts - financial obligations.

	27-03-2002 11:05									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Not following about your first sentence.

I'm asking why bring welfare in the debate at all when it is totally irrelevent at the issue at hand: Ex post facto suits being used in an attempt to punish a corporation for engaging in a legal activity well over a century ago.

	27-03-2002 11:08									#110
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quote: And you think European colonialism had nothing to do with the trans-Atlantic slave trade, nor the slavery systems in the Americas??

Oh, I forgot - without the Royal Navy slavery would have been a worse problem

In any event, slavery in America and European colonialism, while linked in the sense that everything is somehow linked, were two distinct entities, and either would have existed even if the other didn't.

	27-03-2002 11:12									#111
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Absolutely - look at the fools running South Africa, too.

Oh, yes, yes and YES! Actually, i don't think they're fools - i think it's much more sinister than foolishness

quote: Hmmm...I disagree - ever read Ayn Rand?

Not lately I could have elaborated more, but it would take all day

	27-03-2002 11:12									#112
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Oh, I forgot - without the Royal Navy slavery would have been a worse problem In any event, slavery in America and European colonialism, while linked in the sense that everything is somehow linked, were two distinct entities, and either would have existed even if the other didn't.

What??
I am not following you. You're saying slavery would have occured in the Americas without European colonialism??

If that is your claim, it does not make sense to me.

DinoDoc, I already explained about the welfare system that David initiated -- enough on that.

	27-03-2002 11:19									#113
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quote: I am not following you. You're saying slavery would have occured in the Americas without European colonialism??

Oh, OK, what you're saying just clicked with me - hey it's late

But still, European colonialism is a historical fact, and you can't justify forcing the US to pay reparations because of what Europeans did. So my point still holds.

	27-03-2002 11:22									#114
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Oh, OK, what you're saying just clicked with me - hey it's late But still, European colonialism is a historical fact, and you can't justify forcing the US to pay reparations because of what Europeans did. So my point still holds.

Nope, your point does not still hold, in my humble opinion.

The United States or the Southern states within the United States never took peaceful steps to emancipate its slaves -- it held out longer than many other countries in terms of slavery -- not all, but many others.

	27-03-2002 11:25									#115
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Perhaps a more pressing issue is the one about modern slavery that exists today! I think the estimate i read the other day was about 41 million!

Perhaps we should be helping them instead of african-americans who may or may not direct descendants of slavery, regardless of how well off they may or may not be

	27-03-2002 11:43									#116
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quote: The Constitution prohibits the states and the Congress from passing ex post facto legislation. It contains no exceptions for anything.

The SC's reasoning went along the lines of this: In Article 1 Section 10 where ex post facto legislation is prohibited, it also prohibts "(1) the making of anything but gold and silver coin a tender in the payment of debts, and (2) the passage of any law impairing the obligations of contracts." And from that, the SC gathered that the ex post facto was not designed to include civil cases pertaining to property. Whether or not the reasoning is valid, it is law.

quote: the reason is that ex post facto laws can have the effect of damaging existing contracts.

That doesn't mean that all ex post facto laws are bad. Frankly, I believe that the prohibition on criminal ex post facto laws is ludicrous. An act should not be unpunishible for no other reason than the fact that the state, at the time, did not consider it a crime. I can imagine how that kind of defense would've gone over at Nuremburg.

Dino, I'm going to bed. Look them up yourself.

	27-03-2002 11:48									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Dino, I'm going to bed. Look them up yourself.

I'm about to go to bed as well but I don't really have time to read so many opinions. I was hoping that you could give me a link where I could find a summary of them.

	27-03-2002 11:53									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I can imagine how that kind of defense would've gone over at Nuremburg.

Germany recognized the Geneva Convention, Ramo. They just didn't follow it.

	27-03-2002 11:55									#119
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No, they shoulda just used the perfectly valid "following orders which I swore to do" argument - oh wait they did that, well I guess might makes right as usual

Oops, wrong thread

	27-03-2002 11:59									#120
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No, they shoulda just used the perfectly valid "following orders which I swore to do" argument - oh wait they did that, well I guess might makes right as usual Oops, wrong thread

Maybe Southerners require like 12 hours of sleep just to retain normal thinking skills while Yanks require only 8 hours of sleep, and they're still super-intelligent.

*** runs to get his flame retardant suit on ***