01-04-2002 02:19									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: There were expulsions and murders (on both sides) prior to this you did not have one side systematically changing the demographics. Systematically changing the demographics? You mean, like having 6 kids per family? Like 600,000 refugees becoming 4 million?

Well, a stable and prosperous economy tends to lower the birthrate of developing nations quite significantly. Too bad Israel didn't try out that strategy 20-30 years ago with the Palestines when they started their settlement plans. Would have saved you a lot of trouble right now.


Makes you wonder if people today have more sense about the future implications of present policies. No? Oh well, guess we'll find eventually when we get there.

	01-04-2002 02:24									#212
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Welcome to the ignore list Waku.

mind you, that's only responding in kind to your behaviour, that is ignoring our posts.

	01-04-2002 02:26									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov The terrorist in Haifa was allowed to get in Israel, because he has Israeli citizenship - his mother is an Israeli citizen who lives in Israel. Yet another example of how we are "opressing" him and his mother, and expelling them too. A terrorist blew himself up next to a medical center in the Efrat settlement. One of the casualties is a medic, which only yesterday gave medical care to yet another young palestinian from the territories.

The oppression is there, not everywhere, but it is.

Your quite right about the medic, it is always the innocent that suffer. That is why people are rightly outraged by the terror attacks.

I would say that opinion in Europe would be far stronger if it were not for these attacks. Also to put some perspective on things Europe is not wildly anti Israeli (in fact it has been quite supportive in the past). It is the occupation and the injustices that occur inregard to peoples lives and settlements that is turn people off Israel here (or at least the current gov).

And as for Arafat, when you keep presenting a common enemy and giving him an excuse for his curruption and incompetance it will continue to go unnoticed (or relegated to a secondary issue), to most of your neighbours.

	01-04-2002 02:27									#214
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CapTVK : you can check out the birthrates of the richest muslim nations. they don't seem to fall .

	01-04-2002 02:28									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Waku lying.

Why are you putting words in my mouth?

Never have I said I want such a thing, not here and not in real life.
Never have I wanted such a thing.

quote: I bet they would prefer to have had the US support.

What kind of nonsense is this?
a) how does wanting US support justify the terror actions started in 1929?
b) you should know that the US was far from Israel's best friend until the late 60s.

quote: obviously you'd prefer to hide that part. sorry again.

You're speaking nonsense again.

quote: Have you read my first post in this thread? Kill your fúcking gods at once!

I'm sorry but you're talking nonsense - again.

This is not a religious dispute. It's strictly and completely political.

The religious side of it is being flared up by the militarist muslim factions, which preach around the world that Jews are enemies of Islam. You'll find that in children's school books in the PA as well.

edume.org
memri.org

quote: I did answer, it's you who doesn't read much and monopolizes the thread with your hate.

You never read what I said.

I ask to get rid of the palestinian instigators, and you blaim me for wanting to ethnically cleanse palsetinians.

You're putting words into my mouth and thoughts into my head, based on your private biases.

Yes, that would get me pissed off.

	01-04-2002 02:30									#216
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Some criticism on the chosen one by the chosen ones and that's what you get.

	01-04-2002 02:30									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti BS : * oh wait... that may sound wrong ) BlackStone: Settlers are mostly regular SECULAR people. anyway , settlers : 200,000. muslims : *starts counting* 1 , 2 ,3, 4, .....20, 21,21,22...... one BILLION ! anyway, your words quite alarm me. One day, I might be forced to live in a muslim state. ... time to counter this . people ... Let's go get us some girls!!!

..time to change my name I think


As for the muslim state, you could always join the winning team


*puts some more petrol on that fire*

	01-04-2002 02:33									#218
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK Well, a stable and prosperous economy tends to lower the birthrate of developing nations quite significantly. Too bad Israel didn't try out that strategy 20-30 years ago with the Palestines when they started their settlement plans. Would have saved you a lot of trouble right now.

True, but then again, our treatment of them was quite better than in many arab countries.

Look at the Israeli-Arabs who since 1949 until today grew from 160,000 to 1,100,000.

The problem is that it is very hard to shake thier very religious and traidional life style.

Many arab villages are still villages because the locals refuse to change the traditional village structure and make place for roads and pipes etc.

	01-04-2002 02:36									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti CapTVK : you can check out the birthrates of the richest muslim nations. they don't seem to fall .

There are lies, damned lies, statistics and politically motivated statistics. People always tend to draw a straight or exponential line straight into the future with either the apocalyps or eternal bliss at the end. They were using the same kind of statistics to describe the "red threat" when the cold war started. Nothing new there



And if the muslim birthrate really bothers you, the Hindu population is coming along nicely...


You remind me of Malthus, Dalghetti...

	01-04-2002 02:36									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov One just has to know how to handle me. What ticks me off and fast, is when instead of dealing with my words, people are accusing me of things based on their own biases. Also when they ignore things I've said, and quote me out of context. You don't do that - do you?

Sincerely, I try not to. It would be a pointless exercise, I think that soem people just get carried away. And it can severely hamper you take on a quote by someone if you have already made up your mind. A self full filling prophercy (sp) i think its called.

	01-04-2002 02:37									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Waku Some criticism on the chosen one by the chosen ones and that's what you get.

Again, you're an idiot.

You go around convinced of your own biases, and don't recognize the truth when it (I ) hits you on the forehead.

This is NOT a religious thing.

No one is going around here thinking he is the chosen one.

Wherever you read that - stop reading it, since it's nonsense and propoganda.

	01-04-2002 02:38									#222
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look , BS () , If I'd be Muslim , like would be better for me socially. But I find your system of doing things unfair. esp. for women. Anyway, as you can see on the left , I am a commie.




Siro : stop with that serious stuff. join the !


the discussion seems both serious , yet not angry . keep the good work people!

	01-04-2002 02:40									#223
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*APPLAUSE*

Siro et al. I must admit, you guys are really amazingly good in diverting attention away from Israels atrocities into completely pointless discussion about birthrates...

Old Goebbels would have been proud...

	01-04-2002 02:40									#224
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK There are lies, damned lies, statistics and politically motivated statistics. People always tend to draw a straight or exponential line straight into the future with either the apocalyps or eternal bliss at the end. They were using the same kind of statistics to describe the "red threat" when the cold war started. Nothing new there

Why don't you read their own statistics.

quote: And if the muslim birthrate really bothers you, the Hindu population is coming along nicely...

I would be bothered by it, but I can hardly recall the last time a hindu hurt anyone unprovoked, or decided to declare religious war and conquer the world.

quote: You remind me of Malthus, Dalghetti...

Who is he?

PS: I read that at first as "matheus" which is spooky.

	01-04-2002 02:41									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti CapTVK : you can check out the birthrates of the richest muslim nations. they don't seem to fall .

..... ..Dalgetti you seem obsessed by Islamic reproduction...what other sites have you open at the moment .

	01-04-2002 02:45									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Again, you're an idiot.

you're a nazi, go get that gun, you're looking fwd to.

Good luck

	01-04-2002 02:47									#227
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK There are lies, damned lies, statistics and politically motivated statistics. People always tend to draw a straight or exponential line straight into the future with either the apocalyps or eternal bliss at the end. They were using the same kind of statistics to describe the "red threat" when the cold war started. Nothing new there

So the statistics you can read everywhere lie ? OK. can't argue with that.

quote: And if the muslim birthrate really bothers you, the Hindu population is coming along nicely...

yes! ...

quote: You remind me of Malthus, Dalghetti...

oh... who is he?

quote: Old Goebbels would have been proud...

8.5/10


BS ( let the spam flow! ) :

nothing , nothing ....

	01-04-2002 02:47									#228
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quote: Originally posted by BlackStone Sincerely, I try not to. It would be a pointless exercise, I think that soem people just get carried away. And it can severely hamper you take on a quote by someone if you have already made up your mind. A self full filling prophercy (sp) i think its called.

I have no idea where waku takes all that "chosen one" bullshit.

If anything, if you really had any idea of the Torah you'd knew that the "chosen one" doesn't at all mean any kind of racial superiority.

It just means that Jews were chosen by god. Not because of any "superiority", and nor does their status give them any "superiority". Just more duties. Period.

Nowhere does god say Jews are better than non jews.

Now, I'm not even religious, as is some 60% of the Jewish society in Israel.

But even I know that.

This "chosen one" bullshit is infact only used by extreme left wingers to try and blame jews of racism.

But anyone who knows Jews, knows that you can hardly find this in the secular Jewish society, which is a great majority.

And you can find similar things in the religious society, because of it's religious nature. Religious people tend to think of themselves as "just" and "more moral" than non-religious folk.

	01-04-2002 02:50									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Nonsense. It wasn't to "derail any efforts at peace". It was used as part of Arafat's strategy, to get more land. He gave the Hamas a free hand, and then told Israel that to stop them, Israel has to give up more.

The fact that Arafat has used Hamas to pressure Israel, doesnt mean that Hamas's own goal is not to derail peace. Arafat and Hamas have used each other, even when advancing different long range goals.

LOTM

	01-04-2002 02:51									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Waku you're a nazi, go get that gun, you're looking fwd to. Good luck

You had that thought way before you entered this thread.
You never read what I said, nor have you cared what I have to say.

Numerously I explained to you I want to stop palestinian militants. Numerously I explained that I do care for the civilians.

Go read your fairytales. You don't care about the truth.

	01-04-2002 02:52									#231
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Siro et al. I must admit, you guys are really amazingly good in diverting attention away from Israels atrocities into completely pointless discussion about birthrates... Old Goebbels would have been proud...

Oh yeah, that's right.

I forgot how waging war on militants is an atrocity yet comitting acts of terror against innocent civilian population is just and right.

	01-04-2002 02:54									#232
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The fact that Arafat has used Hamas to pressure Israel, doesnt mean that Hamas's own goal is not to derail peace. Arafat and Hamas have used each other, even when advancing different long range goals. LOTM

I used to think so.

But Hamas's leaders have stated that they would support a peace agreement as "a tactical stage in Israel's destruction".

Now, this "tactical stage" strategy has been often discussed by PLO officials.

This lead me to the conclusion that they are cooperating.

	01-04-2002 02:57									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov You never read what I said, nor have you cared what I have to say. Go read your fairytales. You don't care about the truth.

Your truth is to say "Nonsense" when someone disagrees with you (not to mention your predilection to insult).

	01-04-2002 02:57									#234
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Ok, now I ask people who aren't part of this -

Who is right, Waku or me?

Has Waku been seeing only what he wants to see?
Has he judged me according to his pre-judices?

Or have I been calling for the expelling and destruction of Palestinains?
Have I been claiming I'm the "chosen one"?

You be the judge.

I'm sick and tired of arguing with the likes of him who don't care what I have to say, and have their mind made up in advance.

	01-04-2002 03:01									#235
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Sure, how many muslims are there?

	01-04-2002 03:01									#236
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and I apparently forgot how stealing someones land and then calling them terrorists when they try to take it back is all right and just.

Oddly, I still don't see how that works. I guess I'm just a decent human beign...

It is not too late, Siro. Behave like one you too.

Have a nice weekend. Take a shower. Take a walk. Eat a good meal.

And contemplate that a few miles from you there are 5 million people who cannot do this mainly because you reserve that right for yourself....

And then ask yourself why they are angry... So angry that they are willing to die if only they get a good chance of taking one your people with them...

think about that before you apologize for the next Israeli murder.

Not that I expect it to do much good. Not that I want to inslut you personally, but I expect that for someone who has been indoctrinated into jewish supremacy and the right to stolen land, other peoples suffering propably won't do much to faze you...

	01-04-2002 03:07									#237
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Dalgetti
look , BS () , If I'd be Muslim , like would be better for me socially. But I find your system of doing things unfair. esp. for women. Anyway, as you can see on the left , I am a commie. /QUOTE]

*Serious face*

I think that you will find that the faith isn`t anti women, the stuff that you here about is cultural or localised B@llocks. I can assure you that any of that stuff has nothing to do with anything i believe in.

*face reverts back to normal*

Heres a joke for you

There was an international feminist conference held in London this week.
Here is some of the speakers that attended.

A German women speaker stood up and said "I told my husband that I was not going to do the ironing any more and that it would be up to him to do it from now on, the next day i went to work and came home to find that he had done all of the ironing, i could not see one piece of clothing that needed to be iron in the whole house" the conference were on their feet cheering and clapping.

Then a French women spoke. "Last week I told my husband that I would not do any more hovering or dusting and that it was up to him. When i came back to the house the following day I could not see a spec of dust anywhere, and ever since then he has done all of the hovering and dusting" Again the conference were on their feet whooping and cheering.

Then a Turkish women stood up to speak "I told my husband that I was not going to do the dishes any longer. I told him that from now on he would have to wash up after the evening meal. The first day i could see nothing, and again the second i could not see athing, by the third I could see alittle out of my right eye.........


*the turkish can be substituted for any race, no meaning to cause any offense to any turkish people, it was told to me by a turkish friend*

	01-04-2002 03:09									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Why don't you read their own statistics.

No thanks, statistics are already my job...

Go check some old cold war era newspapers. Oh yeah, old 50-60's USSR statistics have a large margin of error. Even those for the IMF..it's all about definitions and applying differing methods of measurement...(which definitely goes for China today btw, their growth figures still remain impressive despite this)

quote: You remind me of Malthus, Dalghetti... Who is he?

Thomas Robert Malthus (1766-1834)
An English economist and cleric, mostly known for his projections of population growth and resulting food shortages because agriculture would not be able to keep up with the population. End result: Malthusian Dieoff . Any further increase would result in a population crash, caused by famine, disease or war. He advocated moral restraint to keep the population growth under control. In developed countries this bleak scenario has not happened thanks due to the agricultural revolution and better methods of birth control (contraception).

	01-04-2002 03:11									#239
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu and I apparently forgot how stealing someones land and then calling them terrorists when they try to take it back is all right and just.

Apparently, we need to come up with a definition of the terms guerrila & terrorist.

Here's my attaempt at it:

Guerrila: Guerrilas are irregular soldiers who wage war on regular military forces, secret police agencies, and governmental counter-insurgency police units. Guerrilas do not prefer civilian targets. They do not conciously select civilian victims.

Terrorist: Terrorists target weak and defenseless civilians: old men, women, children--anyone in fact except soldiers--if they can avoid it.

I'll let you choose which is the more respectable form of warfare.

	01-04-2002 03:14									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Waku Your truth is to say "Nonsense" when someone disagrees with you (not to mention your predilection to insult).

I explain my statements and opinions.

I gave you several links with proofs and explanations.

You so far, have not brought one thing which isn't based on prejudice.

Instead you choose to say I'm lying about my intentions for the palestinian people, based on your imagination.

Then you involve the religious factor which is completely irrelevant to this political thing. but your prejudic tells you it's a religious conflict.

Then, again, based on your prejudice, you blaim me for thinking of myself as a "chosen one".

And yes, when people start saying things about me which I consider insults (like saying I wish to rid of the palestinian people, or that I think of myself as a chosen one) I get mad.