05-04-2002 06:57									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Here are some precise figures: Palestinian Refugees: An Overview Estimates vary of the number of Palestinians refugees displaced from within what became the borders of Israel in 1948. In 1949, the United Nations Conciliation Commission put the number at 726,000; the newly-established United Nations Relief and Works Agency subsequently put the number at 957,000 in 1950. The Israeli government has in the past suggested numbers as low as 520,000, while Palestinian researchers have suggested up to 850,000. Of this population, approximately one-third fled to the West Bank, another third to the Gaza Strip, and the remainder to Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or farther afield. In 1967, another 300,000 Palestinians fled from the West Bank and Gaza, to Jordan (200,000), Syria, Egypt and elsewhere. Of these, approximately 180,000 were first-time refugees ("displaced persons"), while the remainder were 1948 refugees uprooted for the second time. Estimates put the Palestinian population at approximately 6.6 million in 1995. In 1995, UNRWA data showed some 3,172,641 registered refugees in its "area of operation" (West Bank, Gaza, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon), plus an estimated 335,000 non-registered "displaced persons".

So every Palestinian who fled from war zones in wars started by arab states was "expelled by Israel" (yes, if the Israelis hadn't been there, the poor victim arab states wouldn't have had to start those wars and get their asses kicked )

And every Palestinian born in the west bank since then is a "refugee" on the theory that his or her parents were "refugees" from Israel?

	05-04-2002 06:59									#32
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Contrary to claims from Arab propagandists at the time and some since, no evidence has ever been produced that any women were raped. On the contrary, every villager ever interviewed has denied these allegations. Like many of the claims, this was a deliberate propaganda ploy, but one that backfired. Hazam Nusseibi, who worked for the Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948, admitted being told by Hussein Khalidi, a Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate the atrocity claims. Abu Mahmud, a Deir Yassin resident in 1948 told Khalidi "there was no rape," but Khalidi replied, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews." Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, "This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror." *

* - "Israel and the Arabs: The 50 Year Conflict," BBC.

	05-04-2002 06:59									#33
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If I was an Israeli, living in the day to day reality of wondering if my wife and children would be spread in pieces and splattered all over the pavement for the crime of being an Israeli...

And if you were a Palestinian living in the West Bank who worried that your children might get splattered from a few thousand metres away for the crime of living on the wrong side of a fence? Palestinian civilians live with a much greater chance of being blown to pieces than Israeli civilians do, and to suggest that it is defensible to hold a people responsible for the actions of all its members leads down an interesting path. The path, it appears, that most in the region have chosen to follow.

Personally, it raises the bile in my throat to see apologists for both sides on TV explaining why their side is the one who should be forgiven for civilian deaths on the other. Israel doesn't "mean" to blow the **** out of residences when children are inside, Arafat doesn't have the "power" to stop his suicide bombers. Yesterday I watched a former Israeli general explaining that the IDF should make life so "unpleasant" for the Palestinians that they will leave "voluntarily". Without any formal statement to that effect, the Israelis seem to have undertaken just such an endeavour.

	05-04-2002 07:03									#34
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The Economist, a frequent critic of the Zionists, reported on October 2, 1948: "Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit....It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."

Time's report of the battle for Haifa (May 3, 1948) was similar: "The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city....By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa."

Benny Morris, the historian who documented instances where Palestinians were expelled, also found that Arab leaders encouraged their brethren to leave. The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: "Any opposition to this order...is an obstacle to the holy war...and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts" (Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986).

	05-04-2002 07:04									#35
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quote: On November 30, 1947, the date the UN voted for partition, the total within the boundaries of the State of Israel (as fixed by the Armistice Agreements of 1949) was 809,100. A 1949 Government of Israel census counted 160,000 Arabs living in the country after the war.1 This meant no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs could have become refugees.

	05-04-2002 07:04									#36
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KH: Dang. I knew it would happen. That former IDF general (rather low ranked btw), will soon be the head of the Mafdal Party, the (previously, so it seems) moderate religious party.
He's a jerk.
Trouble is, that this view has become increasingly popular (48% accord. to recent polls) among the Israeli public, as a result of terrorist attacks.

	05-04-2002 07:04									#37
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I think saying Israel expelled a "few thousand" is like holocaust denial - no wonder the Palestinians call the formation of Israel their own holocaust. I suppose Mark will be telling me that Hitler only killed "a few thousand" Jews.

I was going to ignore MTG's usual "facts and figures" filibuster but actually the refugee numbers are very well documented because they were all registered with UNHCR etc.

Mike, you should do your own but since your too lazy to, here's a few links, including a jewish source:

http://www.passia.org/palestine_fac...UNWRA-2001.html

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/UN/unrwatoc.html

http://www.washington-report.org/ba...291/9112028.htm

http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/proverview.html

http://www.palestinianrefugees.com/...lrights-eng.htm

	05-04-2002 07:06									#38
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quote: Yesterday I watched a former Israeli general explaining that the IDF should make life so "unpleasant" for the Palestinians that they will leave "voluntarily". Without any formal statement to that effect, the Israelis seem to have undertaken just such an endeavour.

That could be his personal view... and notice he is a "former" general.

The policy of Israel is different.

The problem is that it's not always easy to see what people on the ground are doing.


--

In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:

“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.”
- The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387

	05-04-2002 07:09									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Benny Morris, the historian who documented instances where Palestinians were expelled, also found that Arab leaders encouraged their brethren to leave.

Yes, Benny Morris has found that happened. However, you are making it seem like that's only what he found. The truth is, what Morris wrote is that in most cases, Palestinians were fleeing the war itself, and only in some cases was it because of Arab leaders tellin them to flee or because or Israeli attrocities at Dier Yassin (massacre) and Lydda (death march) and Jaffa (litterally thrown into the sea, where they had to be rescued by boat).

	05-04-2002 07:10									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/proverview.html

How odd you should end up with a McGill link. It's stereotyped as the Jewish english Montreal school while Concordia is the Palestinian one.

	05-04-2002 07:10									#41
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“The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live.”
— PLO spokesman Mahmud Abbas ("Abu Mazen"), Falastin a-Thaura, (March 1976).


Gee horsie, it's interesting that you included one israeli site... among 4 others.

anyway, this proves my claims that there are no 3 million refugees in the west bank and gaza
TABLE 2: UNRWA Registered Refugees (June 1995)

	In Camps	Not in Camps	Total
Jordan	238,188	1,050,009	1,288,197
West Bank	131,705	385,707	517,412
Gaza	362,626	320,934	683,560
Lebanon	175,747	170,417	346,164
Syria	83,311	253,997	337,308
TOTAL	991,577	2,181,064	3,172,641

(from horsie's site)

	05-04-2002 07:11									#42
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Che: Sorry, I forget my indoctrination into capitalism...you obviously are using a different definition of 'collectivist'?

And who are these groups in the Knesset "calling for the extermination of the Palestinians"?

Any links?

	05-04-2002 07:13									#43
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Seeker, I don't know about extermination, but the Tourism (?) Minister who was assassinated a few months back was apparently a member of the party that advocates forcible expulsion from the occupied territories.

	05-04-2002 07:14									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes, Benny Morris has found that happened. However, you are making it seem like that's only what he found. The truth is, what Morris wrote is that in most cases, Palestinians were fleeing the war itself, and only in some cases was it because of Arab leaders tellin them to flee or because or Israeli attrocities at Dier Yassin (massacre) and Lydda (death march) and Jaffa (litterally thrown into the sea, where they had to be rescued by boat).

Contrary to claims from Arab propagandists at the time and some since, no evidence has ever been produced that any women were raped. On the contrary, every villager ever interviewed has denied these allegations. Like many of the claims, this was a deliberate propaganda ploy, but one that backfired. Hazam Nusseibi, who worked for the Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948, admitted being told by Hussein Khalidi, a Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate the atrocity claims. Abu Mahmud, a Deir Yassin resident in 1948 told Khalidi "there was no rape," but Khalidi replied, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews." Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, "This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror."*

- "Israel and the Arabs: The 50 Year Conflict," BBC.


And while most did run frmo the war, you shouldn't omit that many DID run away because of the Arab amries.

	05-04-2002 07:14									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov anyway, this proves my claims that there are no 3 million refugees in the west bank and gaza

Really splitting hairs aren't we Siro, "in the west bank and gaza"

	05-04-2002 07:14									#46
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Well, by collectivist, I'm sure you don't mean private property and private profit, both of which were dominent under the Nazis. Don't mistake Nazi rhetoric for Nazi realtiy. Too many people do that.

	05-04-2002 07:16									#47
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Seeker, I don't know about extermination, but the Tourism (?) Minister who was assassinated a few months back was apparently a member of the party that advocates forcible expulsion from the occupied territories.

That party has like 4 members.

And it doesn't advocate forcible expulsion as that would make it illegal.

They are advocating suggesting the arabs to leave.

Their personal view is of forceful suggestion.

However, their party can't publically call for that, since that would immediatelly disqualify them from Knesset.

	05-04-2002 07:18									#48
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quote: That party has like 4 members

Your PM chose to include one of them in the Cabinet. That doesn't impress me.

	05-04-2002 07:20									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat So every Palestinian who fled from war zones in wars started by arab states was "expelled by Israel" (yes, if the Israelis hadn't been there, the poor victim arab states wouldn't have had to start those wars and get their asses kicked )

That's right. They are stateless people. Israel does not recognise their right of return and has leased or sold their homes and land to Israelis. If Israel hadn't been there they'd still be living in their homeland.

quote: And every Palestinian born in the west bank since then is a "refugee" on the theory that his or her parents were "refugees" from Israel?

That's right. There are now up to 4 generations of refugees in the camps. The majority have been homeless and stateless for all of their lives.

	05-04-2002 07:20									#50
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Contrary to revisionist histories that the town was filled with peaceful innocents, residents and foreign troops opened fire on the attackers. One fighter described his experience:

My unit stormed and passed the first row of houses. I was among the first to enter the village. There were a few other guys with me, each encouraging the other to advance. At the top of the street I saw a man in khaki clothing running ahead. I thought he was one of ours. I ran after him and told him, "advance to that house." Suddenly he turned around, aimed his rifle and shot. He was an Iraqi soldier. I was hit in the foot.[37]

The battle was ferocious and took several hours. The Irgun suffered 41 casualties, including four dead.

Surprisingly, after the “massacre,” the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference. The New York Times' subsequent description of the battle was essentially the same as Begin's. The Times said more than 200 Arabs were killed, 40 captured and 70 women and children were released. No hint of a massacre appeared in the report.

“Paradoxically, the Jews say about 250 out of 400 village inhabitants [were killed], while Arab survivors say only 110 of 1,000.”[38] A study by Bir Zeit University, based on discussions with each family from the village, arrived at a figure of 107 Arab civilians dead and 12 wounded, in addition to 13 "fighters," evidence that the number of dead was smaller than claimed and that the village did have troops based there.[39] Other Arab sources have subsequently suggested the number may have been even lower.[40]

In fact, the attackers left open an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left unharmed. For example, at 9:30 A.M., about five hours after the fighting started, the Lehi evacuated 40 old men, women and children on trucks and took them to a base in Sheikh Bader. Later, the Arabs were taken to East Jerusalem. Seeing the Arabs in the hands of Jews also helped raise the morale of the people of Jerusalem who were despondent from the setbacks in the fighting to that point.[41] Another source says 70 women and children were taken away and turned over to the British.[42] If the intent was to massacre the inhabitants, no one would have been evacuated.

37 - Milstein, p. 262.
38 - Kurzman, p. 148.
39 - Sharif Kanaana and Nihad Zitawi, "Deir Yassin," Monograph No. 4, Destroyed Palestinian Villages Documentation Project, (Bir Zeit: Documentation Center of Bir Zeit University, 1987), p. 55.
40 - Sharif Kanaana, "Reinterpreting Deir Yassin," Bir Zeit University, (April 1998).
41 - Milstein, p. 267
42 - "Dayr Yasin," Bir Zeit University.

quote: Really splitting hairs aren't we Siro, "in the west bank and gaza"

shutup idiot

I was answering KH's claim of 2.1 refugees in the west bank, and 1.2 refugees in Gaza.

Your site disproves it. So f*ck off.

	05-04-2002 07:20									#51
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And if you were a Palestinian living in the West Bank who worried that your children might get splattered from a few thousand metres away for the crime of living on the wrong side of a fence? Palestinian civilians live with a much greater chance of being blown to pieces than Israeli civilians do,

Who starts the attacks? If I was a Palestinian, considering their "disposition" towards those who don't support the intifada, I'd go to some other shithole doing contract work, like a lot who went to Kuwait, the UAE, etc.

quote: and to suggest that it is defensible to hold a people responsible for the actions of all its members leads down an interesting path. The path, it appears, that most in the region have chosen to follow.

It's neither a question of "defensible" or "holding a people responsible" - it's a matter of effectively securing the perimeter of your country and protecting your citizens from attack. Kissing the Palestinian's ass under the pressure of terror attacks only encourages the radicals to push harder and to escalate more.


Oh - thanks for the links, Horsie. There's lots of numbers out there, but do they address the arab "influence" on the refugee situation? I mean, I know the Israelis are the only ones guilty of anything and the Palestinians are just innocent victims , but humor me.

	05-04-2002 07:22									#52
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If anyone is tired of me copying and pasting

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf14.htm

MtG, I would kindly ask you to read the quotes I brought, refering to both numbers and influence.

Or read the link.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf14.htm

	05-04-2002 07:22									#53
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Sirotnikov is probably living on land that was once owned by some poor Palestinian now languishing in a refugee camp.

	05-04-2002 07:23									#54
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quote: I was answering KH's claim of 2.1 refugees in the west bank, and 1.2 refugees in Gaza

I wasn't claiming those numbers as refugees. I appear to have misinterpreted what MtG was trying to get at with his comments. I thought he was suggesting that vacating the Territories would not force "millions" from their homes, as I oriinally claimed.

	05-04-2002 07:24									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov And while most did run frmo the war, you shouldn't omit that many DID run away because of the Arab amries.

Why did you repost about the rapes? When have I ever said anything about rapes? Honestly, I'd never heard any accusation of rape, which is odd, because it accompanies almsot every war.

Yes, it's true, many people did run away at the apporach of the Arab armies. Only a great fool stays in the path of an advancing army, regardless of which side it may or may not be on. Even "liberating" armies aren't known for their discretion. However, considering that almost every single battle took place outside the Jewish allotted territory, and that most of the refugees came from the territory Israel occupied (about 1/3rd from Arab occupied Palesitine, 2/3rds from Israel) . . .

It's irrelevent. People were fleeing war, and it doesn't matter on which side the army that was approaching them was. It's still war, which is a bad thing to be around, even if you're a solider.

Besides, you act as if the invading Arab armies were there for anything other than a land grab. I've always written that the Palestinians were screwed by both sides.

	05-04-2002 07:25									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I think saying Israel expelled a "few thousand" is like holocaust denial - no wonder the Palestinians call the formation of Israel their own holocaust. I suppose Mark will be telling me that Hitler only killed "a few thousand" Jews.

No, but I might say that 80% of the Jews shot/gased/starved/whatever themselves. Only that they didn't.

quote: I was going to ignore MTG's usual "facts and figures" filibuster but actually the refugee numbers are very well documented because they were all registered with UNHCR etc.

Again, I'd like to remind you that the majority of refugees didn't get Israeli "aid" to become such.

quote: http://www.passia.org/palestine_fac...UNWRA-2001.html

Thanks for yet again demonstrating the Palestinian success at reproduction under less-than-optimal conditions.

quote: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/UN/unrwatoc.html

Hmm... So all palestinian refugee camps were located outside of '49 Israel?

quote: http://www.washington-report.org/ba...291/9112028.htm

Maybe I misread, but although being very sorry for the troubles that the UNWRA had in 1991, very optimistic about the Lebanese promises to normalize Palestinian refugees status made at the same time, very relieved that Israel has nukes and quite uninterested by the Arabness of the UN Secretary General at the time, I fail to understand how all that is related to the current discussion.

quote: http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/proverview.html

Thank you for referring us to information we already know. Adorable kid, by the way. And I like the face of that old man. I sincerely wish that they could live a normal life in peace. I really do.

[QUOTE
http://www.palestinianrefugees.com/...lrights-eng.htm [/QUOTE]

Hmm... Interesting. I might read it some time, when I have the time and energy. I seems to actually have some nice, hard facts in it despite the all-too-biased choice of words. I can live with that. Please bring the portions of this that might interest me right now.

	05-04-2002 07:27									#57
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Oh - thanks for the links, Horsie. There's lots of numbers out there, but do they address the arab "influence" on the refugee situation? I mean, I know the Israelis are the only ones guilty of anything and the Palestinians are just innocent victims , but humor me.

Certainly there were and are wrongs on both sides. My objection was to the view that only "a few thousand" Palestinians were expelled. I think whatever figures you take that view has been thoroughly rebutted. We need to explode these myths, which are extraordinarily persistent, to get a balanced view.

	05-04-2002 07:30									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Contrary to revisionist histories that the town was filled with peaceful innocents, residents and foreign troops opened fire on the attackers. One fighter described his experience:

Soooooo, people fighting back to protect their town from attack justify a massacre? Dier Yassin happened after the collapse of Palestinian resistence to the partition (except in Jerusalem, where the Arabs were still trying to hold on). The town had a peace agreement with it's neighboring Jewish villages. All of a sudden the Irgun and Sternists show up with a loudspeaker on a truck, which rolls into a ditch too far from town to be heard, and assault the town. There's resistence, and because the Arabs dared to fight back, the Israeli forces took the men of the town and executed them.

Don't try and defend the indefensible.

	05-04-2002 07:30									#59
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quote: Who starts the attacks? If I was a Palestinian, considering their "disposition" towards those who don't support the intifada, I'd go to some other shithole doing contract work, like a lot who went to Kuwait, the UAE, etc.

So you should move, but as an Israeli you should stay? I personally wouldn't choose to make my home in either place. That doesn't change the fact that some people on both sides are attached enough to their homes to stay.

quote: ...it's a matter of effectively securing the perimeter of your country and protecting your citizens from attack...

And you suggested that it was okay to do this by dispossessing an entire nation. It's not. The Israelis have lost ~500 citizens in the past year. This is hardly an excuse to commit an atrocity on that scale.

	05-04-2002 07:35									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse My objection was to the view that only "a few thousand" Palestinians were expelled.

Mark is correct, only a few thousand were expelled. The vast majority of people fled the fighting. Only some left because their were forced at gun point, such as the Lydda Death March and the expuslion of Arabs from Jaffa (most had already left on their own). The vast majority of Arabs fled the fighting, like any normal person would do. Only some left because some useless ineffective Arab leader called for the people to leave and return when the Jews were tossed out or because they were afraid of a massacre or because they were forced at gun point.