10-04-2002 09:28									#301
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And if you need to vote always for majority government, why don't we just have a 1-party system of communism?

I never said that. I said Alta should vote for the party most likely to win. As long as the CA and PC are divided there is no point voting for them. If right-wingers stopped voting for the CA and PC in one election, that would send them a strong message to get their act together.

	10-04-2002 09:29									#302
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I never said that. I said Alta should vote for the party most likely to win. As long as the CA and PC are divided there is no point voting for them. If right-wingers stopped voting for the CA and PC in one election, that would send them a strong message to get their act together.

Again, I'd like to know where you get the idea that the Liberals would change their policies simply because 3M expendable votes think quite a bit differently from the 27M other people voting for them.

	10-04-2002 09:31									#303
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Like which issues?

GST, NAFTA to name but two.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Tinkai, I don't know what world you live in...but there's no way in hell Alberta would influence Liberal policies even if they did vote liberal. They do not need the votes here, they're expendable, and they've already made it painfully clear they think Alberta's ideas are that of the devil and must never be put into play.

Wrong. The Liberals don't need Alta only because the right wing is fighting among itself and poses no threat. If the right-wing was united, the federal elections would go down to the wire (as shown in my previous post, Ontario would not be completely Liberal Red).

	10-04-2002 09:34									#304
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai GST, NAFTA to name but two.

Not particularly.
If the conservatives were in power, you'd see a much stronger stance for Canada against the US in this lumber dispute, for example.

quote: Wrong. The Liberals don't need Alta only because the right wing is fighting among itself and poses no threat. If the right-wing was united, the federal elections would go down to the wire (as shown in my previous post, Ontario would not be completely Liberal Red).

Okay, so again...explain this to me:
If Alberta votes liberal, how would this threaten the Liberals at all? It'd make them STRONGER and eliminate any kind of real competition whatsoever, which means they could actually be able to do just like they did before.

I agree with you that the right wing should be united to do anything, but voting for the liberals would accomplish absolutely nothing. I guarantee you they wouldn't budget to conservative policies on anything at all simply because they're getting 2M extra votes from Alberta.

	10-04-2002 09:34									#305
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Again, I'd like to know where you get the idea that the Liberals would change their policies simply because 3M expendable votes think quite a bit differently from the 27M other people voting for them.

And again, Alta votes are expendable to the Liberals only because the right is divided.

In 2000:
4,843,927 Canadians voted PC/CA
5 252 031 Canadians voted Liberal

A united right would force the Liberals to fight for every vote in every province.

	10-04-2002 09:36									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai And again, Alta votes are expendable to the Liberals only because the right is divided. In 2000: 4,843,927 Canadians voted PC/CA 5 252 031 Canadians voted Liberal A united right would force the Liberals to fight for every vote in every province.

Yes, and I agree, but you keep saying that if Alberta votes for the liberals things would change for the better. Complete and utter nonsense.

That's like saying if the Allies caved to the Axis in World War II life would be much better, since we wouldn't have to fight them.

	10-04-2002 09:37									#307
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Not particularly. If the conservatives were in power, you'd see a much stronger stance for Canada against the US in this lumber dispute, for example. Okay, so again...explain this to me: If Alberta votes liberal, how would this threaten the Liberals at all? It'd make them STRONGER and eliminate any kind of real competition whatsoever, which means they could actually be able to do just like they did before. I agree with you that the right wing should be united to do anything, but voting for the liberals would accomplish absolutely nothing. I guarantee you they wouldn't budget to conservative policies on anything at all simply because they're getting 2M extra votes from Alberta.

If the right is united then there is no need to vote Liberal, but as long as the right is divided, the Liberals are the only party capable of winning. So if Alta start voting Liberal, the Liberals will look at it as a chance to develop a base for future elections when they have to fight a tight race against a re-united right. The Liberals will move their political platform to the right to cater to Alta, not on all things, but on some things. The Liberals would also be less likely to risk offending Alta because that would destroy any hopes of building on their initial gains there.

	10-04-2002 09:38									#308
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David James

My point in posting the 51% fallacy was to deflate the argument that a provincially or regionally balanced Senate could thwart the will of the majority of the voters.

The fact is that this country is currently ruled by minorities of voters (let's not even talk about citizens). That minority is usually overwhelmingly represented by MPs from Ontario and Quebec. In short, the voters of Ontario and Quebec rule this country with absotively zero checks on their power. Sorry, but that's the truth.

I don't know whether PR or a Transferrable ballot would be better for truer representation of the will of the people. There are arguments for and against both.

However, for people from central Canada to assert that their rights would be subverted by there being 10 Senators from each of 10 provinces is tending towards the absurd. More like their divine rights being restrained. Assuming of course that the Commons remained first past the post.

	10-04-2002 09:40									#309
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai If the right is united then there is no need to vote Liberal, but as long as the right is divided, the Liberals are the only party capable of winning. So if Alta start voting Liberal, the Liberals will look at it as a chance to develop a base for future elections when they have to fight a tight race against a re-united right.

Stop right there.
Alberta is the most right wing party. If there is a united right, the Liberals could kiss their chances goodbye in Alberta (again). They wouldn't waste valuable time and money here, they'd spend it in Ontario where they get lots more people to vote.

quote: The Liberals will move their political platform to the right to cater to Alta, not on all things, but on some things. The Liberals would also be less likely to risk offending Alta because that would destroy any hopes of building on their initial gains there.

I REALLY don't see this happening.
Alberta is more right wing than the rest of the country, a slight movement from the liberals to the right isn't going to save their asses. You can bet on Alberta constantly voting for right wing parties, at least for the forseeable future. Half-assed fence-sitting doesn't count here.

	10-04-2002 09:40									#310
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Asher: would you agree that history shows that the Liberals are more concerned with staying in power then they are about any "liberal" principles?

	10-04-2002 09:41									#311
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Asher: would you agree that history shows that the Liberals are more concerned with staying in power then they are about any "liberal" principles?

History shows that Alberta will vote for the right wing parties, not a fence-sitting liberal party that (even in your best case scenerio) budged some of its policies farther right.

If they satisfy Alberta's needs by shifting stuff to the right, then it'd be a right wing party. If it's a right wing party, the left wing will be left to vote for NDP, they'd lose more votes then they gained.

	10-04-2002 09:43									#312
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Stop right there. Alberta is the most right wing party. If there is a united right, the Liberals could kiss their chances goodbye in Alberta (again). They wouldn't waste valuable time and money here, they'd spend it in Ontario where they get lots more people to vote.

Arrgh!!! This is my whole point. As long as Alta consistently votes right wing, the Liberals have no reason to pay attention to it.

If Alta elected some Liberal MPs, and if there is a re-united right-wing posing a strong threat to the Liberals, then the Liberals would do whatever they could to get more Liberals elected in Alta.

	10-04-2002 09:50									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Arrgh!!! This is my whole point. As long as Alta consistently votes right wing, the Liberals have no reason to pay attention to it.

And that's NOT GOING TO CHANGE.

Alberta's NOT going to vote liberal in the forseeable future.

It's like asking the US to vote communist.

quote: If Alta elected some Liberal MPs, and if there is a re-united right-wing posing a strong threat to the Liberals, then the Liberals would do whatever they could to get more Liberals elected in Alta.

This is an impossible scenerio!
If there is a re-united right wing, there WOULD be no liberal MPs here.

The Liberals know that, that's why they don't even campaign here. Even with a divided right, they lost horribly in Alberta.

You're asking Albertans to vote for "the enemy" even in the face of a reunited right wing, in order to "pose a strong threat to the liberals". That will never, ever, happen. And quite frankly, it's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

I'm not sure you understand that "liberal" is almost a curse in some parts of Alberta.

	10-04-2002 09:51									#314
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai If Alta elected some Liberal MPs, and if there is a re-united right-wing posing a strong threat to the Liberals, then the Liberals would do whatever they could to get more Liberals elected in Alta.

Unfortunately not quite right Tingkai. Enlightened Edmonton is a jewel ready for the plucking by the Liberals. We returned several Liberals in 97. McClellan barely held on to her seat in 2000. I think everybody else wiped out.

The fact is the Liberals wrote the city off. They ignored us and to make matters worse, campaigned partially on bashing the West.

Even though they had excellent prospects for 6 or so MPs from Edmonton, they drained that away through neglect and intentional alienation. So much for theories about converting from within.

	10-04-2002 09:56									#315
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quote: Arrgh!!! This is my whole point. As long as Alta consistently votes right wing, the Liberals have no reason to pay attention to it.

So your solution is for Albertans to ignore their political leanings to satify people they don't agree with?

Shouldn't the government be for all the people and not try to screw over the people that didn't vote for them?

It's be like me telling California to vote more Republican and then they'll get more money (well that wouldn't happen anyway, but still, the argument holds).

Is this some ploy to get Alberta to be more leftist?

	10-04-2002 09:56									#316
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Edmonton's on the way to the dark side. Too many blue-collar workers are condensing in the city, causing the vote to slowly shift over to the Dark Side.

Calgary is still the shining light of the province.

	10-04-2002 10:02									#317
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Unfortunately not quite right Tingkai. Enlightened Edmonton is a jewel ready for the plucking by the Liberals. We returned several Liberals in 97. McClellan barely held on to her seat in 2000. I think everybody else wiped out. The fact is the Liberals wrote the city off. They ignored us and to make matters worse, campaigned partially on bashing the West. Even though they had excellent prospects for 6 or so MPs from Edmonton, they drained that away through neglect and intentional alienation. So much for theories about converting from within.

Because the Liberals are getting arrogant. They see no threat so they are doing whatever they really want to do. When there is a threat, the federal Liberals have traditionally responded by doing whatever will get them the most votes. They generally have no political ideology other than to stay in power.

	10-04-2002 10:05									#318
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Edmonton is the seat of government (many unionized employees who consider more than the best place to drill next).

Edmonton is a University city. Many intellectuals (psuedo and otherwise).

Edmonton is the centre of service for the oil patch and rural communities for 60% of the province (many blue collar workers).

Edmonton has at least its share of immigrants.

Edmonton also has a very good dose of the rugged individualist streak of shared with the rest of Alberta. Very many "leave me alone to run my own life" conservatives.

For these reasons, Edmonton may very well be one of the more cosmopolitan locales in Western Canada. It sure is facsinating to live and work in.

	10-04-2002 10:07									#319
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Edmonton is a University city. Many intellectuals (psuedo and otherwise).

The UofA isn't much larger than the UofC, IIRC. In fact, I believe they're around the same size.

quote: Edmonton has at least its share of immigrants.

So does Calgary. I was a minority in high school, and I'm a white male.

Calgary simply has more white collar workers than Edmonton, by a fair margin. Calgary's population is largely executives and employees of oil company and management, Edmonton's largely services and workers.

	10-04-2002 10:10									#320
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Because the Liberals are getting arrogant. They see no threat so they are doing whatever they really want to do. When there is a threat, the federal Liberals have traditionally responded by doing whatever will get them the most votes. They generally have no political ideology other than to stay in power.

Ironically, by the time they are done, there probably will be an NDP, Tory, CA alliance to not run against each other in any ridings across the nation. In other words, whoever is p*ssed at them just vote for the non-liberal left on the ballot. That may be what it takes to finally pry them out of power and decimate them.

They will have to be decimated x 9.9 before any real reform of our political landscape is ever possible. They will not allow it any other way. You have hit the nail on the head. They are the party of power. Pure power. Ideology is for winning elections and can be changed as one changes his or her socks.

	10-04-2002 10:11									#321
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Shouldn't the government be for all the people and not try to screw over the people that didn't vote for them?

Not for the Liberals. Their only concern is to stay in power.

The Liberals are not going out of their way to screw Alta, no matter what Asher says. The Liberals are trying to maintain votes in other provinces and if a policy will attract voters in other provinces, but alienate voters in Alta, then the Liberals will implement this policy. Pissing off Albertans is just a by-product of the Liberal strategy. It is not an end goal.

Albertans, meanwhile, have shown themselves to be quite adept at shooting themselves in the foot. They only vote right-wing so the Liberals ignore them.

Then Mulroney comes along and puts together a middle/right-wing coalition and forms two majority governments. The Albertans are in a great position because the PCs need their votes and the PC are politically in line with Albertan's attitudes. There was no way that the PCs would ever screw Alberta.

So what does Alberta do. They go this isn't good enough. The PCs are not right wing enough. Let's form another party.

End result is the PC coalition is destroyed, the right is divided and the Liberals walk into power.

As a left-winger, I'm perfectly happy with this result, but I will never understand why the Albertans did what they did. They were far better off under a united right-wing coalition than they are under the Liberals.

	10-04-2002 10:15									#322
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I am not going to turn the "Why is Canada still a constitutional monarchy?" into a Edmonton-Calgary debate.

Suffice to say, the UofA makes the UofC look like a rural K12 one-room school house (on the prairies).

You got more Banks and Oil head offices though. You can keep them. They look good down there.

	10-04-2002 10:16									#323
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Albertans, meanwhile, have shown themselves to be quite adept at shooting themselves in the foot. They only vote right-wing so the Liberals ignore them.

I REALLY hate your philosophy.
Alberta should not have to vote left wing in order to have a right wing vote. Never, ever, will that happen, and it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

What Alberta (and all of Canada, before the Liberals scuttle the country) needs is a united right wing party.

quote: Then Mulroney comes along and puts together a middle/right-wing coalition and forms to majority governments.

How dare you call his party "right wing". Middle is pushing it, too. Compared to the US, Mulroney was still very much left wing.

quote: So what does Alberta do. They go this isn't good enough. The PCs are not right wing enough. Let's form another party.

The PCs were not a right wing party under Mulroney. Why do you think Alberta got pissed off? We thought we voted for a right wing party only to find out that it's a chickenshit left wing, or at best center, party.
That's how the Reform party came about.

quote: As a left-winger, I'm perfectly happy with this result, but I will never understand why the Albertans did what they did. They were far better off under a united right-wing coalition than they are under the Liberals.

Again, the right wing PCs at the time weren't exactly right wing, which is why the Reform party was born (real right wing).

It's not that hard of a concept.

But it's long overdue to merge the two into a real right wing concept. The PCs need to merge with the CA, and Manning needs to take control instead of Harper.

	10-04-2002 10:17									#324
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Suffice to say, the UofA makes the UofC look like a rural K12 one-room school house (on the prairies).

Yes, the UofA has 30,000 full time students (according to the website) and the UofC has 29,000 full time students.

Huge difference indeed.

	10-04-2002 10:32									#325
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Then Mulroney comes along and puts together a middle/right-wing coalition and forms two majority governments. The Albertans are in a great position because the PCs need their votes and the PC are politically in line with Albertan's attitudes. There was no way that the PCs would ever screw Alberta. So what does Alberta do. They go this isn't good enough. The PCs are not right wing enough. Let's form another party. End result is the PC coalition is destroyed, the right is divided and the Liberals walk into power. As a left-winger, I'm perfectly happy with this result, but I will never understand why the Albertans did what they did. They were far better off under a united right-wing coalition than they are under the Liberals.

We agree entirely about the Liberal Party of Canada.

You are right about Liberal motives. They don't spend their Sunday's figuring how to screw Alberta next. But when the interests of power dictate, they don't care about the devastating consequences of their policies on Alberta.

You are wrong about why Liberals ignore us. You are on the trail though. Remember, POWER... that is the scent they are on to. Remember, POWER... it is not obtained in Alberta (or BC). We could vote for them all we want, we'd still get screwed the moment their interests in Ontario and Quebec were served by the act. Well, at least we'd have MPs apologize for it. Would they kiss us?

The bit about the PCs though, that's rich. They were wiped out nationally based on lies, lies, manufactured scandal, lies, and more lies. They went from 2 consecutive majorities to 2 seats! This was not a case of Alberta finding a way to self-destruct. Everybody bought it! That's how thoroughly the right wing in the entire country screwed themselves.

	10-04-2002 10:42									#326
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BTW. It's not just Alberta that is ill-served by the Liberal fascination with power combined with the electoral realities of central Canada.

The fisheries on both coasts have been totalled under their stewardship. The forestry indutry in BC is being hung out to dry. For the life of me, I can't figure out why the nature of the Liberals and Canada's severely undemocratic parliament is only an issue of burning import in Alberta. I guess the overt maleficence of the NEP was just a bit too much for us to be able to ignore, or forget.

	10-04-2002 10:48									#327
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The bit about the PCs though, that's rich. They were wiped out nationally based on lies, lies, manufactured scandal, lies, and more lies. They went from 2 consecutive majorities to 2 seats! This was not a case of Alberta finding a way to self-destruct. Everybody bought it! That's how thoroughly the right wing in the entire country screwed themselves.

Yeah I agree the Mulroney PCs did all that you say they did, but I have to give him credit for what he did in 88. After introducing the GST, and after all the corruption of the early years, he still managed to pull off a majority government.

The PCs were really destroyed at both ends: the creation of the Reform Party in the west and the BQ in Quebec.

	10-04-2002 10:54									#328
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I REALLY hate your philosophy. Alberta should not have to vote left wing in order to have a right wing vote. Never, ever, will that happen, and it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. The PCs were not a right wing party under Mulroney. Why do you think Alberta got pissed off? We thought we voted for a right wing party only to find out that it's a chickenshit left wing, or at best center, party. That's how the Reform party came about. Again, the right wing PCs at the time weren't exactly right wing, which is why the Reform party was born (real right wing).

It's called politics. It's called strategic voting. It's what we do in Ontario and it is the reason why Ontario comes out on top. Ontario is the political battleground because it has the swing votes.

A "real right-wing" political party will never govern federally. The best you can do is middle/right wing which is better than middle/left wing for you Albertans, but not for me.

You folks in Alberta can take pride in your political principles, but you'll never have any power. You'll always be on the fringe just like any fanatical group.

	10-04-2002 10:56									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The PCs were really destroyed at both ends: the creation of the growth of the Reform Party in the west and the BQ in Quebec.

But what caused these phenomena, and the accompanying fact that they got wiped in Ontario and the Maritimes too?

	10-04-2002 10:59									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai It's called politics. It's called strategic voting. It's what we do in Ontario and it is the reason why Ontario comes out on top. Ontario is the political battleground because it has the swing votes.

Ontario comes out on top because of its massive population.
"Strategic voting" has nothing to do with it. The 2M voters in Alberta are very small peas to the liberals, with very different ideas than the liberals, it comes as no surprise that Alberta takes a back seat. Alberta takes a backseat primarily because we don't have enough votes to topple the liberal government, not because we're right wing. That's secondary.

quote: A "real right-wing" political party will never govern federally. The best you can do is middle/right wing which is better than middle/left wing for you Albertans, but not for me.

If only that Quebeccer Mulroney didn't fudge it all up beyond recognition.

quote: You folks in Alberta can take pride in your political principles, but you'll never have any power. You'll always be on the fringe just like any fanatical group.

Fanatical? As already said before, compared to other Western countries, Alberta's pretty centrist. It's only when compared with the left-wing mess that governs Canada right now that we appear extreme fanatics.

This is semirelated, and was touched on Earlier...:
Can anyone give Alberta some good reasons why life is better for us in Canada rather than the US or on our own? I'm not saying we should ditch Canada, I'm just asking for people to evaluate why we even stay here.

There doesn't seem to be too much benefit, but there's a whole lot of hell that comes with it.