09-04-2002 11:10									#211
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc BTW: While we are reforming the Candian Senate, what do you people think of removing the PM's power to appoint its members and either having them popularly elected by thier respective provinces or being appointed by provincial governments? We would of course get rid of the Senate's rediculous member for life terms with something signifigantly shorter. I'll let you figure out the magic number for that one.

Been der, done dat.

Alberta holds elections for it's Senate nominees. All PMs have resisted this movement, even those whose power bases were somewhat in Alberta. That guy did knuckle under and appoint Canada's first, and only, elected Senator.

The PM who followed him has paid us no heed. Almost as if he and his party live in dread of the Senate receiving the mystical seal of a popular mandate. That would be the first step in being effective. It would break forever the strangle hold on parliament that the Liberals hold.

They hold office the majority of time. They appoint the majority of senators. So long as they keep their guys in there, anybody else who gains power will face real opposition in the Senate, while they face none. Don't you like it? Kinda like a Banana Republic isn't it?

I do believe that the Senate of the United States started on its way towards electoral mandates by individual initiatives in various states, did it not?

	09-04-2002 11:16									#212
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KH. Sorry for adding a comment. I didn't materially change anything I said did I? I hope not. That would be bad.

	09-04-2002 11:16									#213
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse None of you have yet explained why a voter in Calgary should have more say in what the federal government does than a voter in Toronto does. As it stands right now, the system is transparent, equitable and not based on the special interests of smaller provinces.

None of you have yet to explain why the voters in Quebec and Ontario should always have more say in what the federal government does with Alberta's resources (to use an example) than a voter in Alberta does. As it stands right now, the system is unacceptable, certainly not equitable, and based on the special interests of the two major provinces.

	09-04-2002 11:20									#214
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KH. The whole point is that political power in this country needs to be redistributed. We are not being well served as a nation by the dominance of Ontario and Quebec.

Yes. Proportional representation would be better. The Tories would hold 20% of the seats instead of 5% (I'm guessing). The NDP would benefit from time to time too. The Liberals would never stand for it though.

Just as they will never stand for refrom of the Senate.

Would a proportional Commons and a regionally balanced Senate be a bad thing?

	09-04-2002 11:20									#215
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quote: Why should 10-15 States be able to, reasonablly, get away with ignoring the interests of the other States? That was what caused the Virginia Plan to fail

Why should 51% of the people be able to get away with ignoring the interests of the other people?

	09-04-2002 11:22									#216
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: Why should 10-15 States be able to, reasonablly, get away with ignoring the interests of the other States? That was what caused the Virginia Plan to fail Why should 51% of the people be able to get away with ignoring the interests of the other people?

They shouldn't, which is why we must reform the senate or add another mechanism to protect the rights of the other people.

What do you suggest? It's NOT fine how it is...

	09-04-2002 11:23									#217
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Why should 51% of the people be able to get away with ignoring the interests of the other people?

That's exactly the question KH.

	09-04-2002 11:25									#218
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither KH. The whole point is that political power in this country needs to be redistributed. We are not being well served as a nation by the dominance of Ontario and Quebec. Yes. Proportional representation would be better. The Tories would hold 20% of the seats instead of 5% (I'm guessing). The NDP would benefit from time to time too. The Liberals would never stand for it though. Just as they will never stand for refrom of the Senate. Would a proportional Commons and a regionally balanced Senate be a bad thing?

Why should the Senate be "balanced" regionally? Nobody's explained why voters in one region should have more of a say in this Senate than voters in another region. If you want to group the "West" into one giant chunk (pop. 9 million) and go by proportional rep. to get, say, 30% of Senate seats, then give 35% to Ontario, 25% to Quebec and 10% to the east coast, then we can discuss the merits of it. Until you stop insisting on a system that makes your vote count for more than mine I'm going to oppose you completely.

	09-04-2002 11:26									#219
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Not going to edit. Learn to love my typos.

The 51% arguement applies equally to proportional representation and the Senate. Different ways to skin the cat.

As it is we have about 45% of voters, being only 60% of electors, dominating the interests of the entire nation. That's democracy?

	09-04-2002 11:26									#220
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Why should 51% of the people be able to get away with ignoring the interests of the other people?

That question is already on the table from several people. You seem to have ignored it before now.

	09-04-2002 11:29									#221
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I've mentioned regions repeatedly.

25/25/25/25, West, Ontario, Quebec, Maritimes would suit me fine (for a time). What about when Quebec's pop no longer justified it. It doesn't now. What about when BC and Alberta are 40% of the countries pop?

The other key is mandate. The Commons should never more be able to shout down the Senate based on a mandate of 30% of the electors. That's rediculous.

	09-04-2002 11:31									#222
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	09-04-2002 11:39									#223
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's exactly the question KH.

Ah, but that's the system both we and the US have right now. Just because you can't find that 51% by picking up individual states and clumping them together doesn't mean that the will of 51% of the pop still can't opress everybody else.

	09-04-2002 11:39									#224
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Ah, but that's the system both we and the US have right now. Just because you can't find that 51% by picking up individual states and clumping them together doesn't mean that the will of 51% of the pop still can't opress everybody else.

Just how well, exactly, do you know how the US government works?

	09-04-2002 11:44									#225
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I've mentioned regions repeatedly. 25/25/25/25, West, Ontario, Quebec, Maritimes would suit me fine (for a time). What about when Quebec's pop no longer justified it. It doesn't now. What about when BC and Alberta are 40% of the countries pop?

The Maritimes are still insanely overrepresented (this will get even worse; Nfld has lost 7% of its pop. in the last 5 years) and the West and Ontario are slightly underrepresented (which will also get worse). What's the problem with tying Senate seats to population?

And if we're going to do that, then I want the grandfathering rules on seats in Commons lifted too. PEI should have 1 (maybe 2) seat(s), not 4.

Electoral systems require flexibility, not to have political powers tied to a demographic that no longer exists by the dead hand of old agreements.

	09-04-2002 11:46									#226
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The Maritimes are still insanely overrepresented (this will get even worse; Nfld has lost 7% of its pop. in the last 5 years) and the West and Ontario are slightly underrepresented (which will also get worse). What's the problem with tying Senate seats to population?

That kind defeats the purpose, Einstein.
What good is having two House of Representatives?

Just more red tape, not much different.

quote: And if we're going to do that, then I want the grandfathering rules on seats in Commons lifted too. PEI should have 1 (maybe 2) seat(s), not 4.

Aye. House of Commons should be fairly represented by population, nothing more, nothing less.

	09-04-2002 11:47									#227
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Ah, but that's the system both we and the US have right now. Just because you can't find that 51% by picking up individual states and clumping them together doesn't mean that the will of 51% of the pop still can't opress everybody else.

No. In the US, generally it can't. That's because RI has the same 2 senators that NY has. You can easily have 51% of the pop unable to impose their tyrannical will on the majority of the regions of the US.

	09-04-2002 11:47									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Just how well, exactly, do you know how the US government works?

Very. You've got an oversimplified mindset, Asher. You can't see how the proper distribution of votes in the US would get a majority in both houses and a president into office with only 25% of voters selecting the party in question?

	09-04-2002 11:48									#229
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BTW. The Maritimes currently have more Senate seats than all of the West.

	09-04-2002 11:49									#230
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Very. You've got an oversimplified mindset, Asher. You can't see how the proper distribution of votes in the US would get a majority in both houses and a president into office with only 25% of voters selecting the party in question?

KH, you're making extremely stupid (to be blunt) scenerios.

The Senate balances out the majority of power strugle problems where the heavy populated states could use a heavy hand over the sparsly populated states.

The senate isn't perfect, but it goes a LONG way in ensuring that smaller states don't have their interests trampled over by heavy hitters like New York and California (or Ontario and Quebec in Canada's case).

	09-04-2002 11:58									#231
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No. In the US, generally it can't. That's because RI has the same 2 senators that NY has. You can easily have 51% of the pop unable to impose their tyrannical will on the majority of the regions of the US.

Yes, but it can still easily occur with the right distribution (pick up enough small states and enough total), and now you can have 15% of the population (41 million people in the 25 smallest states) stopping the rest of the pop. from doing what's best for the country because it hurts their states' special interests.

	09-04-2002 11:59									#232
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither BTW. The Maritimes currently have more Senate seats than all of the West.

We've already agreed that the current Senate is less than useless. I wouldn't mind seeing it go.

	09-04-2002 12:00									#233
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If it hurts the interests of 50% of the area of the United States it likely is not in the interests of the United States as a whole.

	09-04-2002 12:01									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The senate isn't perfect, but it goes a LONG way in ensuring that smaller states don't have their interests trampled over by heavy hitters like New York and California (or Ontario and Quebec in Canada's case).

It also goes a long way towards insuring that the small states use their undue influence o get themselves a bigger share of the pie.

	09-04-2002 12:02									#235
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse We've already agreed that the current Senate is less than useless. I wouldn't mind seeing it go.

Abolishing the Senate would be the worst possible scenario, except for dictators.

	09-04-2002 12:02									#236
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither If it hurts the interests of 50% of the area of the United States it likely is not in the interests of the United States as a whole.

15% of the population, notyou. Cutting farm subsidies is one of the things that won't happen because of rural states' undue influence in the Senate.

	09-04-2002 12:03									#237
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It also goes a long way towards insuring that the small states use their undue influence o get themselves a bigger share of the pie.

Yes, and having a single entity as a leader will ensure that he cuts himself a share of the pie too!

KH, let's cut it out. It's getting really annoying debating you because you're tossing out the entire idea on whimsical notions with no historical basis or real reasons at all, just that "NO I DONT LIKE THE IDEA", mostly because you're already seeing your political influence being peddled. Not all of us have that luxury.

quote: Yes, but it can still easily occur with the right distribution (pick up enough small states and enough total), and now you can have 15% of the population (41 million people in the 25 smallest states) stopping the rest of the pop. from doing what's best for the country because it hurts their states' special interests.

Fabulous, and now provide us some historical documents where that's happened.

	09-04-2002 12:04									#238
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Abolishing the Senate would be the worst possible scenario, except for dictators.

The Senate already doesn't do anything. Personally I'd like unicameral legislature, but I'm willing to discuss the idea, unlike Asher's "one province 2 senators".

	09-04-2002 12:05									#239
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Oh contraire. The Senate gets up on its hind legs every time there is a non-Liberal government.

	09-04-2002 12:06									#240
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The Senate already doesn't do anything. Personally I'd like unicameral legislature, but I'm willing to discuss the idea, unlike Asher's "one province 2 senators".

Well, maybe not one province 2 senators. One region two senators makes more sense.

PEI and whatnot are too small, way too small. They'd need to be clumped.