09-04-2002 12:09									#241
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Yes, but it can still easily occur with the right distribution (pick up enough small states and enough total), and now you can have 15% of the population (41 million people in the 25 smallest states) stopping the rest of the pop. from doing what's best for the country because it hurts their states' special interests.

1) If a party got the 25 smallest states, it wouldn't get them the majority of the House of Representatives.

2) 25 States wouldn't give you control of the Senate either.

3) You can forget gaining the Presidency as well in that case.

	09-04-2002 12:09									#242
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See? I knew you could see my point.

Now, the only problems I see for a Senate distributed along regional lines by pop is that it limits the effective power of the government. That's not always a good thing. We've seen the kind of politics it leads to in the US where nothing ever changes because of the amount of steps bills have to take...

	09-04-2002 12:09									#243
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Also, KH, regarding your "15% pass the law for everyone" idea, you do realize that the Senate alone cannot pass that law? The House would also need to approve it?

	09-04-2002 12:10									#244
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Read what I wrote, honey. I said they could stop laws that everybody else wanted to pass.

	09-04-2002 12:11									#245
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Now, the only problems I see for a Senate distributed along regional lines by pop is that it limits the effective power of the government. That's not always a good thing. We've seen the kind of politics it leads to in the US where nothing ever changes because of the amount of steps bills have to take...

No, the senate is not done strictly by population. But there has to be some kind of population floor in Canada, because it doesn't make sense for PEI to have the same as Ontario. So, say, the Maritimes work as one region with the same number as Ontario, etc.

	09-04-2002 12:12									#246
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc 1) If a party got the 25 smallest states, it wouldn't get them the majority of the House of Representatives. 2) 25 States wouldn't give you control of the Senate either. 3) You can forget gaining the Presidency as well in that case.

Sigh. Read what I wrote. Control of 26 states plus 51% total national support could easily get you a mjority in all 3 places.

	09-04-2002 12:12									#247
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Read what I wrote, honey. I said they could stop laws that everybody else wanted to pass.

Okay, now say that this did happen by some weird coincidence. Why was that law so horrible that these minority states object to it?

Obviously, this system is working. The minority states are standing up against the system that would really hurt them more than help them.

Thanks for the example!

	09-04-2002 12:15									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Asher No, the senate is not done strictly by population. But there has to be some kind of population floor in Canada, because it doesn't make sense for PEI to have the same as Ontario. So, say, the Maritimes work as one region with the same number as Ontario, etc.

Why? You're simply going halfway. Now you've got the Maritimes only being overrepresented by a factor of 2.5 instead of by 10. Go all the way. Why not?

	09-04-2002 12:15									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Okay, now say that this did happen by some weird coincidence. Why was that law so horrible that these minority states object to it? Obviously, this system is working. The minority states are standing up against the system that would really hurt them more than help them. Thanks for the example!

My example is right there. Farm subsidies.

	09-04-2002 12:17									#250
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Why? You're simply going halfway. Now you've got the Maritimes only being overrepresented by a factor of 2.5 instead of by 10. Go all the way. Why not?

Having the senate done by population is simply having a second House of Reps. Why bother?

The purpose of the senate IS to "overrepresent" the minority states compared to their population, the whole PURPOSE is to give them a voice so bills that would exploit those provinces will not see the light of day (see: NEP).

You keep thinking I want to reform the senate into another House or something. The Senate can't make bills, it can simply stop bills that would hurt minority provinces.

If you see that as a bad thing, you're obviously used to being in a province that sits in majority governments...

	09-04-2002 12:18									#251
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Sigh. Read what I wrote. Control of 26 states plus 51% total national support could easily get you a mjority in all 3 places.

Uhhhh. Doesn't that fulfil your requirements and mine, and Asher's and DD's?

Point out where I err. 51% of pop. 51% of regions. You have a super majority.

	09-04-2002 12:18									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Having the senate done by population is simply having a second House of Reps. Why bother?

It's not the same, because they're elected by the region as a whole. Now if you want to "screw over" Alberta you need to get by the 30% of seats that represent the whole West instead of just the 10% that represent Alta.

	09-04-2002 12:19									#253
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse My example is right there. Farm subsidies.

GRRR.
Farm subsidies?

You're worried about FARM SUBSIDIES?

WHAT ABOUT THE NEP?
HOW COULD THE NEP HAPPEN?

I want YOU to guarantee me your stupid majority government won't ever f*ck up like they did with the NEP.

Find me a mechanism to stop the inherent stupidity of your liberal governments, and I'll be happy. I'm proposing this senate reform, which makes perfect sense, but you don't wanna do it because you don't think FARM SUBIDIES WOULD BE LIFTED WITH IT?

I want to smack you.

	09-04-2002 12:21									#254
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It's not the same, because they're elected by the region as a whole. Now if you want to "screw over" Alberta you need to get by the 30% of seats that represent the whole West instead of just the 10% that represent Alta.

No, if you're doing it by population, the same population in Alberta that is being "screwed over" would be reflected in the senators elected for the region Alberta's in.

Having a regional senate by population is nothing but having larger electoral territories with the same result.

Although it does sound like a phenomenal waste of time and money, I'm not surprised that a left-winger came up with that one.

	09-04-2002 12:22									#255
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Uhhhh. Doesn't that fulfil your requirements and mine, and Asher's and DD's? Point out where I err. 51% of pop. 51% of regions. You have a super majority.

Yes, and it can easily be accomplished with 51% total. As a matter of fact, in a two party system it can be accomplished with 26% total, but the odds of that happening defy imagination, as opposed to the odds of my scenario (which you can take my word on are not).

	09-04-2002 12:23									#256
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Yes, and it can easily be accomplished with 51% total. As a matter of fact, in a two party system it can be accomplished with 26% total, but the odds of that happening defy imagination, as opposed to the odds of my scenario (which you can take my word on are not).

Your scenario is outrageous and has no foundation in reality.

Find me a link about when something remotely close to what you suggest happened.

I'll find you links when something I'm talking about (abusing the minority provinces) has happened. Then we can compare notes and see who's talking out of their ass or not.

	09-04-2002 12:24									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Asher No, if you're doing it by population, the same population in Alberta that is being "screwed over" would be reflected in the senators elected for the region Alberta's in. Having a regional senate by population is nothing but having larger electoral territories with the same result. Although it does sound like a phenomenal waste of time and money, I'm not surprised that a left-winger came up with that one.

I don't think you understand, Asher. The entire region votes directly for them, so they need to pay attention to Alberta. Have you been drinking or something?

	09-04-2002 12:26									#258
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I don't think you understand, Asher. The entire region votes directly for them, so they need to pay attention to Alberta. Have you been drinking or something?

A bit.

The entire region votes for them, just as Alberta votes for our house of representative people right now.

Again, how is this any different?

BC won't vote for the same senators Alberta would, so you can't have "The West" together. Incase you forgot, BC has had NDP governements and currently has a Liberal gov't. Ouch.

	09-04-2002 12:29									#259
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Sigh. Read what I wrote. Control of 26 states plus 51% total national support could easily get you a mjority in all 3 places.

25 of the smallest States (what you originally wrote) quite simply will not get you a majority of either House of Congress, no matter how you wish to spin it. We can through that half of your scenario out right now.

51% total national support will only get you the Presidency depending on which State you get your support from.

	09-04-2002 12:29									#260
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I'm close to the point of telling you to **** off and suck on it, Asher. Notyou and I can both live with the proposition he/we came up with, and there's no way in hell I (or anybody else who would get screwed by skewed vote value) would accept a Senate where the Maritimes get as much as Quebec, the West or Ontario.

Do any of you know what happened to the 17th century Poles because of their parliamentary system that gave each and every nobleman (great and small) a veto?

	09-04-2002 12:29									#261
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It's not the same, because they're elected by the region as a whole. Now if you want to "screw over" Alberta you need to get by the 30% of seats that represent the whole West instead of just the 10% that represent Alta.

Not a bad point.

Only problem is assuming the West is one monolithic region with identical interests. It's not. The coast of BC is different from the interior, which is again different from Northern Alberta, which again is slightly different from Southern Alberta, which differs significantly with Saskatchewan, which varies from Southern Manitoba, which vears a bit more when you arrive at Northern Manitoba. Let's not even go into the territories.

You'r discussing 50% plus of the land mass of Canada with soon to be 50% of the population as if it were all one monolithic place. It's not. It has as much variety as the other half of Canada.

	09-04-2002 12:31									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Asher A bit. The entire region votes for them, just as Alberta votes for our house of representative people right now. Again, how is this any different? BC won't vote for the same senators Alberta would, so you can't have "The West" together. Incase you forgot, BC has had NDP governements and currently has a Liberal gov't. Ouch.

And? Even if we had a Senate that gave every province 10 seats Alberta could still easily get "screwed over" by the rest of the country. The only solution must be to give your provincial legislature a veto on every bill.

	09-04-2002 12:33									#263
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm close to the point of telling you to **** off and suck on it, Asher.

Go for it, that's what Chretien's government has been doing to Alberta ever since they got into power.

quote: Notyou and I can both live with the proposition he/we came up with, and there's no way in hell I (or anybody else who would get screwed by skewed vote value) would accept a Senate where the Maritimes get as much as Quebec, the West or Ontario.

There's no way in hell I'm going to have Quebec and Ontario have power to enact something like the NEP again.

You have a problem with it because you're used to getting what you want politically. Quebec is the biggest b*tch of the country. They piss and moan and piss and moan and the government throws money at them to keep happy. Why? Because they've got enough voters to matter in the grand scheme of things.

Provinces like Alberta are politically so far off from the rest of Canada that the federal government finds it useless politically. So what do they do? They take advantage of it. Like Trudeau did with the NEP (The NEP makes for such a fine example, doesn't it?)

quote: Do any of you know what happened to the 17th century Poles because of their parliamentary system that gave each and every nobleman (great and small) a veto?

This is different.
How is my scenerio different?
Mine's been proven to work, as it has in the States.
The system in Canada has proven to not work.

Only a Frenchman would continually argue to keep a broken system.

	09-04-2002 12:34									#264
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc 25 of the smallest States (what you originally wrote) quite simply will not get you a majority of either House of Congress, no matter how you wish to spin it. We can through that half of your scenario out right now. 51% total national support will only get you the Presidency depending on which State you get your support from.

Dino, I'm really going to have to ask you to stop either

a) Misreading what I write
or
b) Deliberately misrepresenting what I write

	09-04-2002 12:35									#265
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quote: Only a Frenchman would continually argue to keep a broken system

Yes. A Frenchman who's more than half English, was raised in English, was educated in English and speaks French with an English accent.

Only a redneck could be such a moron.

	09-04-2002 12:37									#266
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Yes. A Frenchman who's more than half English, was raised in English, was educated in English and speaks French with an English accent.

Maybe living there, the attitude just rubbed off on you.

quote: Only a redneck could be such a moron.

And you're an admitted French Redneck. How nice.

	09-04-2002 12:37									#267
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Not a bad point. Only problem is assuming the West is one monolithic region with identical interests. It's not. The coast of BC is different from the interior, which is again different from Northern Alberta, which again is slightly different from Southern Alberta, which differs significantly with Saskatchewan, which varies from Southern Manitoba, which vears a bit more when you arrive at Northern Manitoba. Let's not even go into the territories. You'r discussing 50% plus of the land mass of Canada with soon to be 50% of the population as if it were all one monolithic place. It's not. It has as much variety as the other half of Canada.

I know that, but it's as far as you can go inside a single country while still keeping democratic fundamentals.

	09-04-2002 12:38									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And you're an admitted French Redneck. How nice.

It's a good thing my statement didn't carry a double implication inside it.

	09-04-2002 12:41									#269
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Let me summarize this thread for people just joining:

KH is happy with how the system is, as his province gets what he wants since it's a "majority" province. He rejects reasoning otherwise based upon far-fetched scenarios that exist only in his mind and not reality.

I am not happy with how the system as, as my province doesn't get what it wants (fair enough), but has been historically exploited by the rest of Canada because of the smaller population (not fair). I propose reforming the senate close to a US-style senate to counter abuse from "majority" provinces. I have an entire country's history of proof that it works.

Did I miss anything?

	09-04-2002 12:42									#270
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Yes, the facts and actual arguments I've been using seem to be conspicuously absent.