09-04-2002 06:53									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Asher What they didn't tell you is this happened already in Ontario, Alberta, and other provinces. All Bill 11 did was add specific rules and regulations for how those clinics were to operate. Nothing changed from what happened before, except for clear and spelled out regulations. You guys don't even know what it is, but the liberal media went on a field day with it blasting those crazy Albertans for wanting to privatize healthcare.

No, they added the capability to contract out for surgery requiring overnight stays.

	09-04-2002 06:54									#152
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse No, they added the capability to contract out for surgery requiring overnight stays.

No, untrue.

Private clinics were already receiving contracts from the public system to do overnight stays. This also happens in Ontario even today, and even before Bill 11. All Bill 11 did was add specific rules regarding when private clinics were allowed to have overnight stays and when they must be done at a public hospital, among other things.

Go read the actual text of the bill, it's on the internet.

	09-04-2002 06:56									#153
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No, I'm commenting on the general attitude of many (or most) who report the news to us from Toronto and a 100 other places.

And I'm suggesting that the media and how they report issues greatly effects public opinion.

There are too many examples of the media in general picking up the wrong end of the stick on a story and completely misleading the public in this country.

	09-04-2002 06:57									#154
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Before we speak again, I probably will.

	09-04-2002 06:58									#155
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Some icky facts:

Nielsen Canada April 6, 2002 National Ratings Top 10

1. H.N.I.C.
2. H.N.I.C.
3. CTV National News
4. CTV Evening News
5. CTV Late News
6. Mysterious Ways
7. Curling
8. Cold Squad
9. Curling
10. Hockey Pre-Game

Hmm, I don't see the CBC newscast in there anywhere. In fact, it was beat out by "Cold Squad", which tells you something.

	09-04-2002 06:59									#156
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I've never even heard of "Mysterious Ways".

	09-04-2002 06:59									#157
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We're not speaking specifically about the CBC, since that much is obvious.

Even Global and CTV are all mostly liberal, as is most of the country, that's why they're #1.

	09-04-2002 07:00									#158
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It's not just CBC TV.

It's also CBC radio, Southam Newspapers, etc.

CBC TV is a good target though. They of the muslim grip fest 3 days after 9-11. Tell me these guys have a clue.

	09-04-2002 07:00									#159
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quote: We're not speaking specifically about the CBC, since that much is obvious. Even Global and CTV are all mostly liberal, as is most of the country, that's why they're #1

So you're complaining that mass media is geared toward the masses?

	09-04-2002 07:01									#160
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither There are too many examples of the media in general picking up the wrong end of the stick on a story and completely misleading the public in this country.

*Austin Powers voice*
C'mon, man, throw us a bone here.

*Dr. Evil voice*
I mean, would it kill you to give us one frickin' example. Hmmm? Hmmm?

	09-04-2002 07:03									#161
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse So you're complaining that mass media is geared toward the masses?

I'm asserting that the mass media feeds people what they want to hear.

I'm not complaining, I'm simply saying most of Canada is severely misguided with many issues in Canada because the mostly liberal media downplays much of the important issues (the farce that is the Senate) and plays up the stupid issues and slant them horribly (Bill 11).

	09-04-2002 07:03									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Even Global and CTV are all mostly liberal, as is most of the country, that's why they're #1.

Where is the conspiracy in the majority being ... the majority?

	09-04-2002 07:05									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda Where is the conspiracy in the majority being ... the majority?

Would you two cut it out with the straw man arguments? Those really get to me.

It's not a conspiracy, it's simply telling the liberal public what they want to hear -- the evil conservatives are bad. They'll slant the stories as much as they can and misguide the public about just about everything Alberta does.

	09-04-2002 07:06									#164
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That's free enterprise for you.

	09-04-2002 07:07									#165
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Of course what monarchists never consider is that Britain might decide that it can no longer lend its monarchy to other countries, become a republic or the monarchy itself might decide to stop offering its services to other countries.

What would Australia, New Zealand and Canada do in those circumstances? I find it hard to believe they would set up their own monarchies.

	09-04-2002 07:08									#166
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Ohhhh man. Here we go. This has real potential. Heh.

The GST ::gasp::

The tax it replaced was the first levy of the government of Canada. It was antique. It killed jobs. It was hidden so people in general didn't even know it was there.

The time came to replace it. What a cl*sst*r**** that turned out to be. The Liberals led the media in the charge against the 'evil' Tories. Most everybody I know of bought it. About the only people for the GST were some who worked in industries and knew what that tax was and what it was doing, ie they weren't fooled. The resulting storms of protest devestated the only viable alternative to the Liberals. Bet you the PMs media advisors are ruing that day.

	09-04-2002 07:09									#167
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse What would Australia, New Zealand and Canada do in those circumstances? I find it hard to believe they would set up their own monarchies.

We'd invade and restore the monarchy?

Volunteers?

	09-04-2002 07:11									#168
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I told you I didn't care that much about the monarchy.

Wanna bet we'd keep the existing Constitution (including the GG and LGs) and simply ignore the inconsistencies?

	09-04-2002 07:11									#169
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Sorry, Asher. NYE was the conspiracy theorist, not you.

As for an anti-Alberta bias in the media, you're just watching the wrong newscasts. During the NDP reign of terror in BC (of which I am a refugee) I got sick of watching the litany of pro-Alberta media stories on the news and in the papers. In Alberta "the taxes are lower, unemployment is lower, government understands business, higher wages, etc. etc. et-frickin-cetera".

I've got nothing against Alberta, and BC was really in a horrible mess, but you get sick of having your nose rubbed in it.

	09-04-2002 07:17									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda As for an anti-Alberta bias in the media, you're just watching the wrong newscasts. During the NDP reign of terror in BC (of which I am a refugee) I got sick of watching the litany of pro-Alberta media stories on the news and in the papers. In Alberta "the taxes are lower, unemployment is lower, government understands business, higher wages, etc. etc. et-frickin-cetera".

That wasn't blatant bias based on lies. It was the truth.

While the NDP were stealing elections with lies and totaling the economy of BC (along with American trade hypocracy) the people of Alberta had thier buts in gear building a better mouse trap. Sorry.

It is not that the media never report accurately. It is that too often they go totally off the rails and follow the big, if non-existant story.

BTW. Did the RCMP ever find a shred of evidence to support the charges in Stevie 'the Knife' Cameron's book?

	09-04-2002 07:24									#171
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That wasn't blatant bias based on lies. It was the truth.

Ever thought that those exact words could be said by an Ontarian Liberal about the CBC?

The media doesn't lie. It slants things. And the media had a field day in BC knocking the NDP by holding up all the positives about Alberta without showing counterbalancing negatives. But an Albertan NDPer would have been infuriated by those newscasts, because they didn't show the whole picture.

You just characterize it as the truth because it highlights the story you want to tell.


--------------------
Mouse trap? Sorry to burst a bubble, but Albertans didn't invent oil.

	09-04-2002 07:24									#172
	Put an end to popups!

Speaking of lies...

Does anyone have a tape or clip of Jean 'the Mangler' Chretien lying bold facedly to the whole country?

What exactly does "axe da tax" mean? How focused has the media been about that?

How about the defeat of Clark's government. Lost a confidence vote on a budget due to a 5 cent a litre gas tax.

Trudeau tromps him in the campaign, largely based on the gas tax. Trudeau gets in. 25 cent a litre gas tax! Cool guy that. Got completely away with it.

	09-04-2002 07:27									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda Mouse trap? Sorry to burst a bubble, but Albertans didn't invent oil.

Is it going to surprise you to find out that oil isn't the largest industry in Alberta?

You have a point though about the BC media bit. I did not witness any of it. No doubt BC has and had a lot of things going for it. So it might get tiresome to constantly be told the grass is greener in that other pasture. Even if it is under 3 feet of snow.

	09-04-2002 07:31									#174
	Remove this text

Has anyone seen the Kids In The Hall skit where Canada Abandons the Monarchy? Prince Edward makes up some fake newspapers and the Queen gets pissed and takes over CBC to declare her love of bacon, hockey, and Pierre Trudeau. Classic funny.

	09-04-2002 07:35									#175
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Is it going to surprise you to find out that oil isn't the largest industry in Alberta?

Hey, if you don't want it, we'll take it.

quote: You have a point though about the BC media bit. I did not witness any of it. No doubt BC has and had a lot of things going for it. So it might get tiresome to constantly be told the grass is greener in that other pasture. Even if it is under 3 feet of snow.

Exactly. Nobody likes hearing their home get bashed.

	09-04-2002 07:45									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda Exactly. Nobody likes hearing their home get bashed.

Then you should be very glad you are not from Alberta.

	09-04-2002 08:53									#177
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Canadian media has a Liberal bias.

You mean the notorious commie newspapers like: The Sun newspaper chain, the Ottawa Citizen (led by the famous NDPer Neil Reynolds) or The Globe and Mail. And CTV is famous for its left-wing bias. Or how about the Southam newspaper chain? We all know that the Calgary Herald is a bastion for union rights. After all the Batons are famous for being NDPers. And in BC there's BCTV with a business program hosted by Gordon Campbell's brother. And let's not forget Alberta Report.

The National Post was defintely a left-wing rag under Conrad Black.

I'll accept that CBC has a liberal bias as does the Toronto Star, and the Post under Izzie, but the majority of Canadian media is right wing.

	09-04-2002 08:59									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I'll accept that CBC has a liberal bias as does the Toronto Star, and the Post under Izzie, but the majority of Canadian media is right wing.

It's all relative, I guess.
I would definitely not say it's right wing, especially after the Bill 11 media debacle, which I'll never fully understand. If they were right wing they wouldn't be spreading FUD about it, and would present it as fact rather than always getting interpretations and having the "friend of medicare" whine because "it's the start of privatized healthcare! Everyone in Alberta's GONNA DIE! AHHHHHH!"

	09-04-2002 09:08									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Asher So by your logic we should only have one party then, and then we can always vote for that one party and they'll do what we want. Simply brilliant.

No, I said you vote for the party that is most likely to win power. In the post-Mulroney era, that means the Liberals because the right-wingers are divided. There is no way that the PCs or CAs are going to gain power until they reunite. They simply split the conservative vote so there is no point in voting for them.

Why do you think King Jean is still in power. He's not there because we all love him. He's there because there is no alternative. Most of the country realizes this accept for Alberta.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Errm...in most democracies, the idea is you vote for the party that you feel represents your views. You don't vote for the party who is already winning consistent majority governments and hope they take heart and care about what you want, even if they can afford to lose your votes.

If you're smart, you vote for the party that is most likely to do the most for you, or you make a protest vote.

quote: Originally posted by Asher The Senate is a joke, it's completely and utterly useless, and it is unfair how minority provinces can simply be ignored by the government because they're minorities.

Yes, the Senate is useless. Get rid of it.

Smaller provinces are not ignored. NFLD has (or had) a strong voice in the Liberal gov't because of Tobin. The same thing could be achieved by Alta if they elected a strong Liberal MP.

Alta had a strong voice in the Mulroney gov't with Andre Masse (I'm not sure if that is the right name, but it was one of M's Lieutenants from Calgary)

quote: Originally posted by Asher This way, the always-dominant Ontario/Quebec don't have complete control over the entire country by themselves, as they seemingly always do in the Executive branch and the House of Commons.

Ontario and Quebec should have a strong voice because they represent more than 50 per cent of Canadians (or close to that number). Why should 100,000 PEIers have more power than the millions of Ontarians and Quebecers.

	09-04-2002 09:21									#180
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai No, I said you vote for the party that is most likely to win power. In the post-Mulroney era, that means the Liberals because the right-wingers are divided. There is no way that the PCs or CAs are going to gain power until they reunite. They simply split the conservative vote so there is no point in voting for them. Why do you think King Jean is still in power. He's not there because we all love him. He's there because there is no alternative. Most of the country realizes this accept for Alberta. If you're smart, you vote for the party that is most likely to do the most for you, or you make a protest vote.

Sorry, this makes absolutely no sense to me.
No matter who we vote for, Alberta's vote is expendable. It won't make or break elections.

So how does voting for liberals help us at all? They'll still get into power by an even more overwhelming majority, and they can still continue to ignore the province because they still don't need our votes to stay in power. Actually, they need to worry less about competition, since they have an even larger majority now.

I have huge problems following your logic on that.

You seem to be saying that by electing liberals to the federal government, they will meet our conservative needs better. Am I getting that right?

quote: Smaller provinces are not ignored. NFLD has (or had) a strong voice in the Liberal gov't because of Tobin. The same thing could be achieved by Alta if they elected a strong Liberal MP. Alta had a strong voice in the Mulroney gov't with Andre Masse (I'm not sure if that is the right name, but it was one of M's Lieutenants from Calgary)

I don't think you know that Mulroney and his government wasn't well liked where I come from. He's on the same level as Chretien, despite what his party said on paper. He's the reason why the right split up...

But that's not the point. SOMETIMES Alberta may get a real voice in government. Great. But why it it SOMETIMES? Ever since Chretien got in power he's displayed a remarkable dislike for the entire province, refuses to campaign here, and meddles with provincial politics without a real clue what's going on. He's just causing trouble.

If he's going to ignore Alberta politically, then stay the hell out of our provincial politics. He can't muck around both ways.

quote: Ontario and Quebec should have a strong voice because they represent more than 50 per cent of Canadians (or close to that number). Why should 100,000 PEIers have more power than the millions of Ontarians and Quebecers.

Why should PEIers have the same amount of power as Ontarians and Quebecers?
Aren't you all for equality?
You think it's unfair for rich people to have their votes count more. Now we're applying it to provinces: Are provinces with huge populations always going to dominate the smaller ones?

In 1 of the branches of government, the Senate, every province should be represented equally. This protects against abuses from the majority (almost always Quebec/Ontario), while it doesn't give "more" power than Ontario/Quebec has to the smaller people. The Senate cannot MAKE the laws, they would simply demand changes in cases where the greed of Ontario/Quebec would severely harm a minority province(s) (take the NEP as the prime example here).

It works perfectly fine in the states, far better than our current system is working, although you guys might not think so since everything is just peachy when you're in the majority and get to push the smaller guys around.