17-04-2002 17:10									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Do you know how many people live there and how old is this state?

I think both of the states in question have been around for a long time. The populations however may be smaller than the number of years.

quote: Then again, how can you be sure about body counts.

Can't. Don't claim to either. Ranavalona for instance is based on population estimates and I have no idea how they could have been done accurately since no European wanted to hang around an avatoir and I doubt if Ranavalona gave a damn how many died as long as they were mostly people she didn't like.

quote: And one more thing, what happen in Russia in 20 century is not of your consern, its our local Russian showdowns. You can't understand it.

Can YOU? Can anyone understand Stalin signing off on around 3000 people a day for decades?

The Romans I understand.

There was board game of the Russian revolution in the US in the 1970's or maybe it was the 80's. There were multiple sides in the game and a player could controll more than one side. It was actually possible to win the game by attacking yourself to increase your points.

	17-04-2002 17:12									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls He's thinking of San Marino, where the sheep come from...

Thank you. Thats the one. I was giveing TWO examples but I could only remember one name.

Are the men there real Men and are the sheep nervous?

	17-04-2002 17:12									#123
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dp

Last edited by Sprayber on 17-04-2002 at 17:57

	17-04-2002 17:13									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Serb No. But anyway it's a stuipid and offending poll, I didn't voted. Can you show me one, single nation who acted like saint during its history? I guess not, then how can you determinate wich one is the worse?

I agree. But I voted for the French anyway.

	17-04-2002 17:26									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Can't. Don't claim to either. Ranavalona for instance is based on population estimates and I have no idea how they could have been done accurately since no European wanted to hang around an avatoir and I doubt if Ranavalona gave a damn how many died as long as they were mostly people she didn't like.

If you can't be sure about true numbers (it's simply impossible), then you can't choose the worse civ.

quote: Can YOU? Can anyone understand Stalin signing off on around 3000 people a day for decades?

I can understand how it happen and why it happen, but I can't explain this. You should be a Russian to understand how was it possible that people considered a terribale despot who constantly killing them as the god, and worship to this men as the god. You just can't understand it, it's about our mentality.

quote: There was board game of the Russian revolution in the US in the 1970's or maybe it was the 80's. There were multiple sides in the game and a player could controll more than one side. It was actually possible to win the game by attacking yourself to increase your points.

That's what I can't understand.
Which sides? How player can control two sides at once? What was the goal of the game? How one could win? Was it strategy or may be a RPG?
Sorry, I just can't understand this.

	17-04-2002 17:26									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber As for the actual question of the thread. It's France hands down. They are bastards even when they aren't strong enough to do anyting really bad.

Choose a finger ... not the two on the right neither the two on the left !

	17-04-2002 17:28									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I agree. But I voted for the French anyway.

You did it twice like this post? You really don't love them much then. What did they done to you/

	17-04-2002 17:55									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Serb If you can't be sure about true numbers (it's simply impossible), then you can't choose the worse civ.

Rubbish. I don't need exact numbers.

I can choose without any numbers for that matter. See Spreyber's vote.

Remember if in doubt blame the French. What the heck was Napeleon doing in Moscow anyway? What was he doing in Egypt for that matter besides stealing antiquities?

quote: I can understand how it happen and why it happen, but I can't explain this. You should be a Russian to understand how was it possible that people considered a terribale despot who constantly killing them as the god, and worship to this men as the god. You just can't understand it, it's about our mentality.

Now that you put it that way I think I do understand. Russians are masochists.

People like to claim others don't understand when there is nothing rational to understand and they don't want to admit it.

I do understand though. Lay off the vodka and start drinking something you can taste.

quote: That's what I can't understand. Which sides? How player can control two sides at once? What was the goal of the game? How one could win? Was it strategy or may be a RPG? Sorry, I just can't understand this.

It was the Russian Revolution. When the minority party gets a away with calling the majority party the Minority Party reason is not in season.

Don't ask me about the details. I had better sense than to play that game. My brother told me about it. His kitchen pantry has LOTS of space for food. Its full of games instead. Maybe twenty percent is food the rest is games and thats not counting the PC games he has upstairs. I try to be a bit more selective.

	17-04-2002 17:58									#129
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dp again

	17-04-2002 17:59									#130
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Choose a finger ... not the two on the right neither the two on the left !

like this you mean


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	17-04-2002 18:29									#131
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Rome isn't winning in a landslide?
Oh, come on now!

	17-04-2002 18:34									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I wonder why no one who voted for America has the balls to make their case?

You wouldn't have a very easy time making one for France or England either...

Personally, on the choices that were there I was torn between Turkey and Spain, but the Mongols should have been included.

	17-04-2002 18:51									#133
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For those of you claiming that the pop. of all of the Americas was 5 million, please remember that Tenochtitlan alone, for instance, held 200 000 people and was but one city of a vast empire, and even the island of Hispaniola had a pop. as high as 1 million prior to Colombus' arrival. Some links for you to chew on:

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/kis/schools/hu.../aboriginal.pdf

(The only estimate lower than 50 million cited there was made in 1929. The newer estimates range upwards from 50 million)

http://popindex.princeton.edu/browse/v62/n2/d.html

quote: 62:20078 Newson, Linda A. The population of the Amazon basin in 1492: a view from the Ecuadorian headwaters. Transactions of the Institute of British Geographers, Vol. 21, No. 1, 1996. 5-26 pp. London, England. In Eng. "Recent archaeological, ethnohistorical and ecological evidence has begun to challenge the view that `civilizations' failed to develop in the Amazon basin due to limitations of the tropical forest environment. As a result, estimates of the native population in 1492 have become an issue of debate. These estimates are evaluated in the light of the ethnohistorical research on the Ecuadorian headwaters. Estimates are considered by examining estimated habitat densities, the impact of Old World diseases and contemporary evidence for native cultures. The study is based on documents found in archives in Quito, Seville, Madrid and Rome. It is suggested that the population of the Amazon basin in 1492 probably exceeded 5 million but that expectations of substantially higher populations appear unfounded."

This gives a figure of 5 million for the Amazon basin alone

http://www.univ-tlse2.fr/rech/cprs/expos/indian.html

In French, giving pop. estimates of 60 or 80 millions

	17-04-2002 20:01									#134
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: Originally posted by Sikander I wonder why no one who voted for America has the balls to make their case? You wouldn't have a very easy time making one for France or England either...

That one. coming from a Canadian, was particularly brilliant


Tell me, how many Canadians (or North Americans in general) have Indian blood? And how many Mexicans? Of course that will mean little if anything to you.

As to the Americans, well, I haven't voted and regard this as one of the most bigotted threads in all of Apolyton history, but I can't forget Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Remember please that these atrocities occurred in the XX century, well after the Protestant Reformation, the French Revolution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the American Constitution, etc etc

So, in the end, a case could be made for all countries on Earth, not only the usual ones that some of you guys seem to have an obsession for.

	17-04-2002 20:14									#135
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Because of the Third Reigh would I want to vote for Germany but I like modern Germany because they trade a lot with Belgium(if they would ever declare an economic embargo would the Belgian economy be dead) so my vote goes to Austria and I also like Germany in general because they have produced good muciscians,philosophers and even some scienctific people so my vote goes to Italie.

	17-04-2002 20:24									#136
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How come that US is in the lead, I guess the extermination of native americans ranks high in collective consiousness on these forums

	17-04-2002 20:25									#137
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It cracks me up to see you guys telling Chris he should learn some history. He spent years studying history while most of you guys probably just read some revisionist bullshit on the web.

Also the accusations of bigotry amount to no more than childish name-calling. I know Chris and he is no bigot.

	17-04-2002 21:43									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Also the accusations of bigotry amount to no more than childish name-calling. I know Chris and he is no bigot.

Well, then he´s doing a hell of a job acting like one...

	17-04-2002 21:59									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred It was the Russian Revolution. When the minority party gets a away with calling the majority party the Minority Party reason is not in season.

Yep, nothing but commie duplicity and Russian stupidity here. Has nothing to do with the fact that when the Russian Socialists split in 1903, those with Lenin were in the majority, and those against were in the minority.

	17-04-2002 22:28									#140
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Serb "ruthless" means showing no mercy.

and Americans... well, they always look for their interests.

kak budto rossiya eto sama ne delayet... takiye dauni tipa primakova , k iraku podlizivayutsya, ne smotrya na to shto on vam iche dohuya babok s vremen sovetov doljen.

oblom ruskim shriftom pisat.

	17-04-2002 22:40									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I know Chris and he is no bigot.

Nah, he's just trolling.

	17-04-2002 22:48									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Nah, he's just trolling.

I dont think hes trolling, I think hes just being blunt about the way he feels. I like that.

	17-04-2002 23:00									#143
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Have some person voted for their own civilization ?

I've seen that french have score two more points ... Are some people protecting frogs and snails here ?

	17-04-2002 23:23									#144
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Zobo, why do you have trees along the Champs d'Elysses (sp?)?

	17-04-2002 23:34									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia It cracks me up to see you guys telling Chris he should learn some history. He spent years studying history while most of you guys probably just read some revisionist bullshit on the web.

He holds a Master's Degree in History, IIRC.

	17-04-2002 23:37									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola He holds a Master's Degree in History, IIRC.

Yes, that is correct, so I think he knows what he is talking about.

	18-04-2002 02:02									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Yes, that is correct, so I think he knows what he is talking about.

I've known PhD's in history who didn't know what they were talking about.

	18-04-2002 02:25									#148
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quote: Nop. Crusades was a way to bring more wealth to Western countries. No more.

No, that was the reconquista in Spain .

And the French really weren't bastards, maybe to their colonial possesions, but the English were worse in that regard. Both states contributed much to the world as well, in terms of technology and philosophy (esp. political philosophy).

quote: This gives a figure of 5 million for the Amazon basin alone

Hey, I believe it... and I believe 60 million in the whole of the Americas. I mean, the area is just simply huge! It looks smaller on the map than it really is because of the Mercator projection, but wasn't small at all. Like you said 200,000 in Tenochititlan, and that isn't even the whole of the Aztec Nation. And the Incas probably had more!

quote: I've known PhD's in history who didn't know what they were talking about.

I'm reminded of that wonderful part of 'Good Will Hunting' here

	18-04-2002 02:32									#149
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quote: Tell me, how many Canadians (or North Americans in general) have Indian blood?

You're talking to one. The Spaniards killed on a far broader scale than the French or English did. The only reason that Meso- and Southern-American native blood lives on is the far greater population density of natives in those regions.

Spain brought a lot to the world, but tolerance and respect for other cultures was not one of its strong suits. Probably a consequence of having to fight the Reconquista...

	18-04-2002 03:03									#150
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I knew you were going to answer that. Note that the same reason you give to justify why there is more indian blood in Latin America than in North America (which I agree with) also explains why the Spanish killed more natives than the English and French in the Americas. The number may vary but the crime is still the same. Of course that Spain brought little to no tolerance and respect to the Native American cultures. No one has ever denied that. The point you fail to acknowledge is that the English the French, the Portuguese the Dutch were no different at all.