18-04-2002 03:11									#151
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then how come in colonization the french got a bonus of good cooperation with the indians?

	18-04-2002 03:12									#152
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I agree with your point, but my point is that I'm judging on a variety of qualifications. That includes motivation, but it also includes net results.

The fact that the British eventually used their position to actually give something back to the people they had colonised (not especially true in the New World; more true in India and Africa) also loses them some bastardiness points, and the basic fact is that the French (although grabbing a significant portion of Africa) were a distant third (or fourth, with the Portuguese) in terms of colonial power...

I suppose one could make a case for the Romans, but the fact that their imperial days were so long ago makes it difficult for me to feel the same sort of revulsion for them that I feel for the more recent conquerors...

	18-04-2002 03:32									#153
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KH, I understand but my point still is that this kind of comparisons are pretty unfair. As to the results, what makes you think that the British did actually give something back to the people they had colonized while the Spanish did not? Isn't that statement flawed by your cultural background? Looking from my side I can't see what the Brits did better in Asia and Africa than the Spanish in Latin America, really...

	18-04-2002 03:40									#154
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In Africa, for example, the Brits did not practice wholesale dislocation of native peoples, direct exploitation in forced-labour camps, genocide,...

They eventually realised that at some point they would have to give their colonial possessions back to the people they took them from in the first place. Spain only lost its possessions through their inability to hold them, and they left behind them a continent populated by their own seed. Same thing that happened in US+Canada, but less people ended up dead as a result.

	18-04-2002 03:44									#155
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What about the Greeks? Yeah, how about them?

	18-04-2002 03:46									#156
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand What about the Greeks? Yeah, how about them?

wha?????

	18-04-2002 03:46									#157
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Even in NA the Brits had, by the 19th century, developed a more enlightened outlook on the natives than their American offshoots who were busy agressively expanding their rule westwards. Development of the Prairies was slower in British NA than to the south, in part because of the reluctance of the British to send out the Army to dislocate the tribes (in fairness, also because of the less-hospitable climate).

	18-04-2002 03:48									#158
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The Greeks. They do all this "head stuff".
Aristotle, Plato, all those brain-suckers.

	18-04-2002 03:50									#159
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we are good people

	18-04-2002 04:07									#160
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For three achievements in the art of genocide,slavery and polution,I was forced to face the bitter truth as a American that even though some other power would ve created the H-bomb we did and we used it and we excused it:even though some other power would've been greedy an arogant enough to unleash profiteers on uneducated and impoverished populations to exploit children we did it;and lastly but not leastly even though some other power might ve taken all it could grap for rescources even from its own children ,we did it.Now!! we scratch our heads cause we did it. We gave genocidal maniacs the means to destroy the entire planet,Islam can't top that and I feel sorry for them cause they want to challenge the biggest bastards in history.I fear what we will do to retain the title.

	18-04-2002 04:25									#161
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It seems to me KH, that you are missing now the fact that one has to judge things within the time frame they take place. The realization that all humans had certain rights and the social revolution these ideas brought about occurred before the British established themselves in Africa. It is therefore logical that the British used more humane methods (or less inhumane methods if you prefer) to deal with the natives... the final outcome is that the Brits exploited the natives to their own benefit, just like the Spaniards did two centuries before. They left very little that would help improve the life conditions of their colonies.

I did not understand the difference you make between the Brits realizing they had to give back their colonies one day and the Spanish losing them by force. It seems to me the Brits held their colonies as long as they could, just like the Spanish. The Brits were just smarter. It is an undeniable fact that the Brits have always been smarter than the Spaniards in most areas.

	18-04-2002 04:33									#162
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yep, nothing but commie duplicity and Russian stupidity here. Has nothing to do with the fact that when the Russian Socialists split in 1903, those with Lenin were in the majority, and those against were in the minority.

Your right it doesn't have a thing to do with it.

Only an idiot accepts being called the minority party. At any time.

	18-04-2002 05:26									#163
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I would have also voted for Palestine, but there is no Palestine nation.

	18-04-2002 06:29									#164
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MrFun, you are joking, right?

And yes there is a Palestinian nation, but no Palestinian state.

	18-04-2002 06:31									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui MrFun, you are joking, right?

Of course he is, we all know those peace-loving pals could never be bastards.

	18-04-2002 06:33									#166
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To call them the biggest bastards in history has to be a joke, or else he has no clue about history.. that is for sure.

The Israelis aren't the biggest bastards either, but they sure are bastards .

	18-04-2002 06:34									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui MrFun, you are joking, right? And yes there is a Palestinian nation, but no Palestinian state.

I was not joking -- I would have voted for Palestine as one of the worst.

	18-04-2002 06:35									#168
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 then how come in colonization the french got a bonus of good cooperation with the indians?

Because Jay is a bit mistaken about the French. They were actually very good to the natives compared to other Euro powers. They upheld the treaties they made and even had alliances with native tribes.

	18-04-2002 06:35									#169
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I was not joking -- I would have voted for Palestine as one of the worst.

Then your history learning is woefully inadequate. Back to College with you!

	18-04-2002 06:36									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And yes there is a Palestinian nation,

Strangely enough, it looks like the leader of the Palestinian nation is an Egyptian.

	18-04-2002 06:38									#171
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You can be born in Egypt and still be a Palestinian. They have some different ethnic ties. The Palestinians and Lebanese have ethnic ties to the Phoenicians that lived in those lands. The Arabs are a bit different.

	18-04-2002 06:50									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Then your history learning is woefully inadequate. Back to College with you!

Palestinian civilians who are not terrorists are not the reason why I would vote for Palestine.

The terrorists who are Palestinian, and using Palestinian civilians as a screen to hide behind, is my reason.

	18-04-2002 06:54									#173
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quote: The terrorists who are Palestinian, and using Palestinian civilians as a screen to hide behind, is my reason.

And that makes the Palestinians (which includes the civilians who are not terrorists) bigger bastards than the English, Americans, Russians, Spanish, Mongols, Turks, Austrians, Chinese, Germans, etc... how?

It just doesn't fit at all (ie, making sense not are you).

	18-04-2002 06:54									#174
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Spanish/Austrians.

Destruction of the empires of the new world.

Destruction of the religions of the new world.

Destructin of the cultures of the new world.

Destruction of the muslim and jewish communities in Grenada.

30 years war.

Iniquisition.


Vaya a el diablo, rayas de Espana.

	18-04-2002 07:04									#175
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Really, Mr. Fun, I find it interesting that you would rate the murder of less than a thousand (?) people in 50 years to rate as one of the greatest crimes in history. Even if we only count Jews as people you only have to move 60 years into the past to find a civilisation that killed 6 million...

	18-04-2002 07:35									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Rubbish. I don't need exact numbers. I can choose without any numbers for that matter. See Spreyber's vote.

Then in this case your choice will be just an emotional choice, nothing more.

quote: Remember if in doubt blame the French. What the heck was Napeleon doing in Moscow anyway?

He was sitting in Kremlin, drinking vodka, looking at his army and think:" What a bunch of loosers. What type of sh!t I smoked when I decided to conquer Russia?"

quote: Now that you put it that way I think I do understand. Russians are masochists.

Sure.

quote: People like to claim others don't understand when there is nothing rational to understand and they don't want to admit it.

May be, there is nothing rational in such behavior, but to understand why people worshiped to such demon as Stalin, you should look deeper in our history. Every Russian tzar was a despot and a living God at the same time for his people.

	18-04-2002 07:54									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti kak budto rossiya eto sama ne delayet... takiye dauni tipa primakova , k iraku podlizivayutsya, ne smotrya na to shto on vam iche dohuya babok s vremen sovetov doljen.

Konechno delaet.
No my zhe ne crichim na ves svet chto Saddam mileishiy paren i chto on prosto zashishet svoyu stranu ot agressii, ne nakladivaem veto na karatelnie resolutcii OON v otnoshenii Iraka. A vsyakie tam parlamentskie asambleii evropy da i belyi dom to zhe davayat na nas iz-za Chechni uzhe kotoryi god. Blin, I dumal mozhet hot posle 11 sent. odumayutsya i otkroyut glaza. Hren to tam, kak resovaly etih terroristov borcami za svobodu ugnetennogo naroda tak i risuyut.
Blyat, zadolbali eti dvoinye standarti uzhe. America imeet pravo zashishatsya, a Rossia znachit ne imeet. Zdorovo blin, prosto super.

P.S. A Maksimicha ty zrya tak obizhaesh, normalnyi muzhik. I zanego golosoval.
Ksta ti, on zhe evrei, mozhet obyasnish kak evrei mozhet byt drugom arabov? Kak emu eto udaetsya?

	18-04-2002 10:05									#178
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Really, Mr. Fun, I find it interesting that you would rate the murder of less than a thousand (?) people in 50 years to rate as one of the greatest crimes in history. Even if we only count Jews as people you only have to move 60 years into the past to find a civilisation that killed 6 million...

It's funny, like he sees terrorist bombings as Holocaust II. Paranoid much?

	18-04-2002 10:12									#179
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I wouldn't talk, Imran. Your open support for the murder of civilians as a legitimate means to combat Israeli occupation/repression is disturbing.

The more talk I hear from both sides on this one, the less I like either of them.

	18-04-2002 10:14									#180
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quote: I wouldn't talk, Imran. Your open support for the murder of civilians as a legitimate means to combat Israeli occupation/repression is disturbing.

Colonial oppression is something that needs to be fought by any means possible.