27-04-2002 21:59									#151
	Suffering from ads?

I don't quite appreciate the idea , for I do not think that Civ score gives any fair resemblance. In case of a draw, sure, lets have a final match. In case of a many-way draw... hm...

	27-04-2002 22:36									#152
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You have to be careful of Civ score since it is biased towars long games where the players are very evenly matched and get big empires. It will also make people more likely to concede in order to maximise their final score and minimise their opponents, and also makes players who think their victory inevitable hold back before attacking in order to maximise their score.

I'm not sure how much of that is good and how much bad...

The other possibility I can think of is year of victory - but I don't like that since it also favours some methods of play over others.

Of course, you can just hope a many-way draw doesn't happen (and it's not likely to). But then, if it does, whatever you decide to do might be percieved as unfair. It's best for all concerned if they know what's happening beforehand. Then again, it's not like anyone is paying to enter, but they are investing time.

Another (extremely unlikely) event you might need to consider is a game reaching 2300AD - but I don't think so. Has that ever happened to anyone here? Just trying to be thorough.

I like the idea of the loser moderating the game - it's their responsibility to find evidence of cheating. You can't get fairer than that. Of course, the victor will need a chance to defend themselves. Perhaps it should be both players responsibility to make saved games for this purpose (or is it that only the host can save - I don't know...).

On a completely different subject, and just out of curiosity, are any of the entrants female?

	27-04-2002 23:01									#153
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Only the host can save turns J Bytheway, and a game has never gone to 2300, and I guess never will. I think more thought on tied winners is required.. I guess a new map will be needed and play offs required.... there really can only be one..

I think one thing that needs emphasising.... This is not a Tournament... There is no one knocked out for losing a game... It is a league where everyone will play everyone else in the league. The one with the most victories is winner.... And one more suggestion - IF anyone drops out, all their wins must be reversed, and all people they had not played must score a victory yes?

There are no women in the competition to my knowledge, which is kind of a pity.

	27-04-2002 23:07									#154
	Inflate your Upload Space

New map playoffs sounds like a good idea.

I can't believe I'm discussing this so much when I'm not an entrant and I've never even played an internet game!

	27-04-2002 23:10									#155
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

- would you like to try a game to see what it is all about, and get an idea of how we play, what the standards are etc??

	27-04-2002 23:20									#156
	Increase Your PM Length

Can't - the university rules forbid it, and even though I could probably get away with it I have too much work to do - I fear I would play too much! Especially with exams coming up. I am revising now but I keep stopping to write posts .

I'll have a go later, in June, when my exams are over. I should have time and the University shouldn't care.

	27-04-2002 23:25									#157
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

- Well I will stop writing here so you can carry on with your academic studies, don't get too distracted like I did, and end up spending years filled with regret!

	28-04-2002 00:36									#158
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

you say you cant have a double elimination bracket(DeB) becouse this aint about only winning, its about having the most robust tactics.

Well the basic about an DeB is that you aint out of the tourney if you loose 1 match, you then go to the loosers bracket were you actually can win the tourney by beating the loosers.

So if you win an tourney with DeB, you actual show you have an robust tactic becouse you gonna meet a high number of players, and i cant see any draw backs about this way to play. And yes i have read the whole thread :-)


I stopped playing CtP couple of years ago due to it was kinda boring winning all the time and all the time each game took, 6 hours+++ (and when i did play half a year later i got owned by Yoda, so didnt bother to play more)

	28-04-2002 01:44									#159
	Increase Your PM Length

I repeat this aint a tournament, or a DEB, it is a league, winner of the league is world champion... Solver sets the rules, but that is one stipulation- To find out the best player, all players must play all others!

Pin, I started playing CTP a year ago, and I was crap.... terrible, abysmal... Luckily I played against someone in my first game that explained why I lost, and so started the culture of strategy discussions, and a lot of people improved... In this forum we started Strategy threads, Internet Leagues, and full disclosure of tactics and ideas, the game to me now is as much about a social occassion as it is about playing.... win or lose I enjoy it all the same... Standards are universally high now, I am one of the worse of the good players, but always take something out of every game I play and incorporate it into my next game... Swissy taught me by example about Zones of Control for blocking and Stealth Units.... Filix about never ending expansion and more careful location planning, Blackice taught me about Micromanagement.. We all take something from every game or there is little point in playing... CTP is one of the greatest Strategy games ever designed, and like Chess to a chess player, it should never become boring...

	28-04-2002 02:12									#160
	Get a bigger avatar today!

OK, I got too tired for revision, so I finished off the competition map instead. Here it is. (Drumroll please...)

Final comments:

It's in single-player saved game format at the moment. I don't know how to load things into multiplayer so I don't know exactly what is needed. I have a scenario version too if required.

Don't worry about the name it only says 4006BC because it's the 6th revision and I couldn't think of a better name...

I won't say anything else about the map itself, just see what comments you have. I'm unlikely to make any large changes unless directed to by Solver, but I certainly want to know if anyone detects any assymetries (i.e. things that make it unfair).

Hope you like it.

[Edit: removed attachment - see post below]

Last edited by J Bytheway on 28-04-2002 at 02:54

	28-04-2002 02:33									#161
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway OK, I got too tired for revision, so I finished off the competition map instead. Here it is. (Drumroll please...) Final comments: It's in single-player saved game format at the moment. I don't know how to load things into multiplayer so I don't know exactly what is needed. I have a scenario version too if required.

Hello i cant load it up. My comp says to me :"hey filix i cant find the competition szenario" Sometimes i relly hate my Computer!!!

So what will i do now? can you post the szenario too?

	28-04-2002 02:53									#162
	Remove this text

Hmmm... OK.

I thought I'd detached it from the scenario but it seems I was wrong. We'll have to go down the scenario route after all.

Unzip the attached into:
\scenarios\Competition\
(Retaining the directory structure) And then go in and start the scenario. I'm glad you made me look at it again because I discovered that player 2 was starting with more techs than player 1 in that other game . Scrap that other version.

Attachment: competition.zip
This has been downloaded 24 time(s).

	28-04-2002 03:24									#163
	Increase Your PM Length

Thank you very much for your work.
This map is really good.
There are just 2 things which i might critizise, it seems like the goods are very rare
Its not easy to get enough goods for good trade... I would like to have more
Mounains are very far away from the coast (but thats not a real problem)
But anyway thank you very much

	28-04-2002 04:26									#164
	Increase Your PM Length

Thats one fantastic map and I mean superb!! Yeh it could be that many more trade goods could be added but that is a minor quibble... the reason being that with all the improvements that are built factories, mills and oil refs...... doubles and triples of the same good would be required

J Bytheway, on behalf of everyone that will be in this competition, I would really like to thank you - it was one pretty enormous task to undertake, and you have done it both quickly and with great finesse!

	28-04-2002 04:39									#165
	Remove this text

If you like J Bytheway's work, you should check his mod out!

	28-04-2002 08:56									#166
	Got spare money?

Not to be a "dude" but I hope the "gl'ers" are grasping the community spirit we have here at the apolyton forums.

Good work people . I will moderate full time for this tourney if need be.

	28-04-2002 10:10									#167
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

great. When does it start?

	28-04-2002 13:53									#168
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Trade goods:

I thought that I'd actually made them quite common on the land, but never mind. I wanted to try to pursuade people to spread onto the other islands to get more. I do know that they're rare in the sea, and that was deliberate too because I usually find that the sea goods are far more common than the others on islandy maps and I don't like that.

You may have noticed I put 3 of each of beavers, poppies and coffee near the start so you can get a triplet wherever you like your first few cities.

If there's demand it wouldn't be hard to add more goods.

The mountains and the sea:

Also deliberate, at least on the starting continents - to make you decide what you really want. IIRC on one of the islands there's some mountain and sea close (with only one square of plains/grassland between).

Anyway, thanks for the nice comments.

	28-04-2002 13:59									#169
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by jpww If you like J Bytheway's work, you should check his mod out!

Thanks for the plug - anyone interested can find out more in this thread.

	28-04-2002 15:39									#170
	Tired of ads?

Nice map! Yes a few more goods would be nice.When are the rules going to be set forth? The biggy, is pollution on? thanks for the map JByetheway.

Last edited by drAgON1 on 29-04-2002 at 16:25

	28-04-2002 15:57									#171
	Tired of ads?

I think Pollution must be on..... It makes certain very straightforward Strategies way to simple....

J Bytheway... when I meant a triple as regards goods, I meant Three of the same good in the city perimiter with 4 imported for a total of 7 - Although that is just because of the way we play... Maybe we leave it??

I am not quite sure how to load map for multiplay..... I will play about until it works.

Dragon1 - I think the rules will be debated over the next week.... But this is what I see. (the basics)



1. No rush buy switching
2. No slic command use
3. A win scores 1 point, a loss 0 points
4. Anyone who drops out of the competition has all results nullified .
5. Turn by turn saves must be taken, and on Victory the losing player gets to check them all for cheating.
6 Wonders on or off.... I dunno!
7 Pollution on or off.... I say on!
8 Every player has to play every other player, no knock outs.
9 in the event of a draw, a new map will be forthcoming, and the whole competition will be run again with the drawn players.
10. If a player is booted, the other player must immediately save the game with the name bootedand turn number.. before retiring to lobby to wait.
11. In the event of a dispute both players will be shot.
12. No one from New Zealand May enter the competition!

	28-04-2002 17:17									#172
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Will now look at the map. As for the playoffs, I think that, should there be a draw, we need a new map to play on it.

As for Gav's proposed rules:

1-4. Completely agree.
5. Is that real?
6. On
7. On
8. Exactly
9. Exactly
10. You're the techie here...
11. I'll take the gun
12.
13. If Saddam wins a game, that one is re-played

	28-04-2002 17:55									#173
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by drAgON1 When ever I started I noticed that I couldnt disband my city. Then I built a settler made a new city . Afterwards I tried to disband my first city and I found out that I could only do this after I built my second city. So it seems for some reason I have to keep at least 1 city. This is different from normal game play and I was wondering if there are or could be more "bug/errors" like that?

That's how it's always been when I've played - you can't disband your last city because if you did you would lose! Similarly, before you build any cities you can't disband your last settler.

quote: Also I have played somre pre-made maps before and for some reason the tech doesn't reach REN AGE. I just hope those kind of thing are worked out before any play starts. And thanks for the map JByetheway.

What exactly do you mean? Do you mean that you cannot research any of the techs in the Renaissance? That would be very odd...

	29-04-2002 14:44									#174
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Player List:


1. Gavrushka
2. Dragon1
3. Faded Glory
4. Filix
5. Darth Viper
6. Yoda
7. Patryn
8. Swissy
9. Milamber
10. Catete
11. Paulno1
12. Pin



We have the map, the basics of the rules, the players... I guess it is soon time to close entry, and start playing.... Solver, over to you.. Do you think close entry Friday, debate the rules, and start the friday after?

I think if Blackice will not play.... which would be a tremendous shame , it would be great if he helped moderate disputes??

	30-04-2002 03:20									#175
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hey, if no one has that patch, then I will be forced to go to the nearest game store and shell out $20. Sacrifices must be made I suppose. Also, it will not let me download the attachment. It says "not found" in big black letters. Is it down, or does my computer just suck?

	30-04-2002 03:58									#176
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

$20 for CTP???!!!

	30-04-2002 05:17									#177
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ok, only $10. I was looking on the net, and there isn't a ctp game in stock for 200 miles!!! Oh well, just have to have it delivered. I should have it in 3-5 days. I hope so anyway, I am having withdrawals.

	30-04-2002 09:46									#178
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Attachment: ctpv125h.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	30-04-2002 09:50									#179
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: I think if Blackice will not play.... which would be a tremendous shame , it would be great if he helped moderate disputes??

Time it is a time issue BUT yes I believe I am qualified to moderate the saved game files.... I will full time do just that but would like the likes of nukeboy, Jbtw, Birdy, Quinns etc.. and others to assist any takers?

	30-04-2002 18:03									#180
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Gavrushka J Bytheway... when I meant a triple as regards goods, I meant Three of the same good in the city perimiter with 4 imported for a total of 7 - Although that is just because of the way we play... Maybe we leave it?? 1. No rush buy switching 2. No slic command use 3. A win scores 1 point, a loss 0 points 4. Anyone who drops out of the competition has all results nullified . 5. Turn by turn saves must be taken, and on Victory the losing player gets to check them all for cheating. 6 Wonders on or off.... I dunno! 7 Pollution on or off.... I say on! 8 Every player has to play every other player, no knock outs. 9 in the event of a draw, a new map will be forthcoming, and the whole competition will be run again with the drawn players. 10. If a player is booted, the other player must immediately save the game with the name bootedand turn number.. before retiring to lobby to wait. 11. In the event of a dispute both players will be shot. 12. No one from New Zealand May enter the competition! [/B]

Hello, i have problems with my provider i cant be online now. But i hope i can fix it soon. But ill go on hollidays in 4 days. Ill be away for 11 days, so ill be back in 14DAYS. Sorry Gav we will have to wait to continue the game...
After the 14 days ill be free to play for 2 Months
Ill try to find an internect Cafe in spain to send you some greetings.


6 Wonders on or off.... I dunno!
Yes Wonders offf
7 Pollution on or off.... I say on!
NO Pollution off