29-04-2002 09:34									#211
	The AI Cheats Put an end to popups!

I "administratively" removed Egypt from the game using Civ Save Game Editor.

I was in the industiral age and I had my gold balanced out to where all I had coming in from taxes matched what I had going out. I "admined" out the Egyptians who were my neighbors and made them mine by changing the cities to American owned.

When I restarted the game, I was loosing 984 each turn. I had to drop all money going into techs and being paid for entertainers in order to make up for the shortfall. Not only that but all their cities over size 8 had all their workers angry with no penalties (no smoke rising up, no rioting, nothing)

From this I have learned the following: The AI is allowed deficit spending. The question I have to ask is this fair? If we have a budget we must stay within why doesn't the AI?

Please try this out on large nations. Let me know if you find the same thing.

	29-04-2002 20:59									#212
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administratively" removed Egypt from the game using Civ Save Game Editor.

I was in the industiral age and I had my gold balanced out to where all I had coming in from taxes matched what I had going out. I "admined" out the Egyptians who were my neighbors and made them mine by changing the cities to American owned.

When I restarted the game, I was loosing 984 each turn. I had to drop all money going into techs and being paid for entertainers in order to make up for the shortfall. Not only that but all their cities over size 8 had all their workers angry with no penalties (no smoke rising up, no rioting, nothing)

From this I have learned the following: The AI is allowed deficit spending. The question I have to ask is this fair? If we have a budget we must stay within why doesn't the AI?
_________

This doesn't prove anything except that the game goes wacko when you edit it. All sorts of changes are LOST when you edited the game, like Egypt's trades.... They could have had income from trading tech. The people were probably rioting because they were no longer under the governor's manage mood setting too.

	29-04-2002 21:08									#213
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deficit spending? You mean paying more for something than you have in negotiations?

	29-04-2002 22:22									#214
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quote: Originally posted by star mouse For me, it is happening every time I bombard. I wasn't even bombarding cities. My targets were often strategic resources on coastal tiles, but the pause would happen even if I was bombarding something else and even when the bombard failed.

Yeah, I get strange results here. In the game I have now, my bombardment of Karachi results in the folowing message, "The of Karachi has been destroyed."

	29-04-2002 22:34									#215
	deficit spending Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by civman2000 deficit spending? You mean paying more for something than you have in negotiations?

No, the Egyptians were spending more money on upkeep per turn than they had. Even if they had money coming in from tech, It still couldn't be anywhere near 984 gold per turn. No body in the game had that kind of money

	30-04-2002 02:40									#216
	Re: deficit spending Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by lorddread No, the Egyptians were spending more money on upkeep per turn than they had. Even if they had money coming in from tech, It still couldn't be anywhere near 984 gold per turn. No body in the game had that kind of money

Perhaps nobody had that kind of money because they were all giving it to Egypt. At the lower difficulty levels, I tend to lead the world in tech production. To keep the AI down, I will sell them tech for as much as the market will bear and crank my tech production to 100% I can easily sell some of the more advanced techs for more than 100gold/turn to each of the AIs (the price drops the more you sell it, so you need to balance it a bit and sell to the richest civs first). I get a tech every four turns, I sell a tech every 8 turns. between that and selling luxuries, the AI gets completely hamstrung and cannot develop *any* tech on their own. I've had an overall income/turn in excess of 4000/turn, but only netted 100 or so after expenses.

However, chances are that you got bit by a sudden increase in corruption. I'm just plucking numbers out of the air, but Egypt could easily have maintained 24 cities on their own without incurring massive corruption, and you could have maintained 24 cities without incurring massive corruption, but once you merged them to have 48 cities of your own, the outlying cities aren't making 1/10th the money they used to.

or, as someone pointed out, editing the save made it unstable, but my money is on corruption.

	30-04-2002 19:51									#217
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Has anybody else noticed the bug where Workers dont change with the industrial age and still run around wearing those toga things? its annoying, I find it hard to take myself seriously as a vibrant- modern state with these backward Workers.

	30-04-2002 20:01									#218
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by problem_child Has anybody else noticed the bug where Workers dont change with the industrial age and still run around wearing those toga things? its annoying, I find it hard to take myself seriously as a vibrant- modern state with these backward Workers.

No, Never!

	30-04-2002 20:03									#219
	Got spare money?

I have noticed that AI workers do not often build mines... They also seem to irrigate far too much... where they settle on a wide expanse with no hills or mountains... they just irigate the whole lot. This means that they have numerous excess food but very poor production.

Has anyone else noticed this?

	30-04-2002 20:14									#220
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quote: Originally posted by exeter0 I have noticed that AI workers do not often build mines... They also seem to irrigate far too much... where they settle on a wide expanse with no hills or mountains... they just irigate the whole lot. This means that they have numerous excess food but very poor production. Has anyone else noticed this?

I've noticed that auto-workers mine grassland and irrigate plains but I would say they over-mine rather than over-irrigate.

	30-04-2002 20:25									#221
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I've noticed that auto-workers mine grassland and irrigate plains but I would say they over-mine rather than over-irrigate.

If I use "A" to automate workers, they seem to irrigate more than mine, which is annoying if you have an overproduction of food and they still keep on irrigating.

When I use "shift-A", they usually start with mining (because there's no river close by) and don't replace the mines afterwards by irrigation (which they would do when using just "A").

This way I get usually appropriate shield production and if I notice that cities don't grow, I can irrigate manually.

	30-04-2002 21:52									#222
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child Has anybody else noticed the bug where Workers dont change with the industrial age and still run around wearing those toga things? its annoying, I find it hard to take myself seriously as a vibrant- modern state with these backward Workers.

Yes, I just noticed that. They don't change until moder. Minor prob, really.

To resurrect a dead horse, my roommate was playing the other night when a twist of the late game worker/berserker "bug" hit. He was the Germans and had already won a cultural (!) victory. Was playing for sheer wicked enjoyment, lobbing nukes, being a total a$$hole to the poor AI. Suddenly 40+ of his own workers went berserk, attacking cities (and taking down mech infantry). He had to send several modern armies to restore order, got many killed. No way its a bug, but did anyone hear of this twist to an old "bug" before 1.21?

	30-04-2002 22:06									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Lucilla If I use "A" to automate workers, they seem to irrigate more than mine, which is annoying if you have an overproduction of food and they still keep on irrigating. When I use "shift-A", they usually start with mining (because there's no river close by) and don't replace the mines afterwards by irrigation (which they would do when using just "A"). This way I get usually appropriate shield production and if I notice that cities don't grow, I can irrigate manually.

That seems to make sense, I use shift-A to automate (but I dont do so until my civ is well under way).

	30-04-2002 22:06									#224
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quote: Originally posted by bigvic Suddenly 40+ of his own workers went berserk, attacking cities (and taking down mech infantry). He had to send several modern armies to restore order, got many killed. No way its a bug, but did anyone hear of this twist to an old "bug" before 1.21?

Never experienced this! How can a worker attack, if he doesn't have attack value? Does he just destroy improvements or can he actually kill units???

And why would he do that?

	01-05-2002 00:40									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Lucilla Never experienced this! How can a worker attack, if he doesn't have attack value? Does he just destroy improvements or can he actually kill units??? And why would he do that?

I'll have to ask him about the exact graphics, though it really doesn't matter. You can mod a scout to have offensive strength and when he attacks, nothing happens, he just stands there, though he does attack. I believe he said they actually attacked cities, and he had a rough time taking the berserk workers down. I'm sure its no bug, too intricate. Probably an after-the-game-is-over-don't-you-have-a-life kind of joke from Firaxis programmers. Which is cool. Makes me want to play around with the concept to see what else they got. My roommate likes to push the program to see if it breaks by doing this sort of thing, but berserk workers just can't be a bug.

	01-05-2002 03:49									#226
	no crack !!! (: Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There is only one problem I've been having with all the patches -- They don't let you have the crack for a copyed version!!!

lol -- if u can't mlaugh, the world willl die.

	01-05-2002 05:46									#227
	Re: Problem with espionage Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Lucilla In my current game I used a spy to show me all troop positions of the Persians. I played maybe two rounds and than saved and quit. After loading the saved game, this information disappeared and the previously revealed enemy units are no longer visible. Anybody encountered the same problem?

I believe after a turn or two, your info on their troop positions becomes obsolete and you have to steal the plans again. I remember that this was how it was a few patches ago.

	01-05-2002 09:10									#228
	Re: Re: Problem with espionage Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by ixnay37 I believe after a turn or two, your info on their troop positions becomes obsolete and you have to steal the plans again. I remember that this was how it was a few patches ago.

I have not experienced this...my spies are still working even at 2067 from way back into the middle ages.

	01-05-2002 11:44									#229
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Redstar Possibly a serious bug afterall... I have been playing 1 game for more than 13-18hrs now. No problems up until last night when the mouse input STOPPED WORKING. All i could do with the mouse was move the cursor. Curiously if i moved the mouse to the screen edges, the map still scrolled. but that's it.

This also happened to me at one point where I stole the troops locations of the Russians and was examining which units they had in which cities in the Mil Advisor, everything was fine until I scrolled to the bottom of their city list and suddenly I couldn't interact with anything using the cursor. I could see the cursor and keyboard commands worked, but aside from mapscrolling, the mouse was useless, I'd have to save the game, quit and reload to get a working cursor back, I tried this several times and it always happened the exact same way.

Also the tech trading with the AIs is very annoying. They will occaisionally trade techs one for one, but generally they refuse to trade me a tech outright. That is until I get to the point of having a discovery in 3 or so turns, then they'll offer to trade the tech to me for a World Map, just about all of my gold, plus my entire gold surplus. When there's only a couple turns left this just doesn't make sense, and they still refuse to trade any other techs at this point. Also it still seems that a few of the AIs decide to always share their techs. In my game it seems like the French, Aztecs and Greeks always happen to have the exact same techs on the exact same turn (and of course refuse to share any with me). This should be fixed!

	01-05-2002 18:19									#230
	Bugs Remove this text

Some minor bugs to report on....

My workers do not upgrade to the modern icon. The build screen will show the correct icon but even newly built workers are of the old icon.

Scrolling issue - Old or custom maps larger than the new huge limit of 160 x 160. I can't scroll beyond the 160 in either direction and have to manually center the map on the spot I wish to move to or view.

Ancient Units do not become obsolete (I know I can change this in the BIC file but the patch should already change it.) There seem to be some broken links which prevent certain units from becoming obsolete -- ie Longbowmen & swordsmen. They may look really cool but if the Domestic Nag is going to suggest anything, I'd much rather build marines or infantry.

Multiple Plants - The build menu will allow for multiple plants to be built in cities, even after the Hoover Dam is built. Am I mistaken in believing that I should not be able to build a coal plant after building a hydro plant in a city? The civlopedia entry would seem to indicate that only one plant can be built in a city and the most modern one makes the old ones no longer available for build.

	01-05-2002 20:09									#231
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quote: Multiple Plants - The build menu will allow for multiple plants to be built in cities, even after the Hoover Dam is built. Am I mistaken in believing that I should not be able to build a coal plant after building a hydro plant in a city? The civlopedia entry would seem to indicate that only one plant can be built in a city and the most modern one makes the old ones no longer available for build.

Not a bug technically. B/c you get coal before hydro, and you buit a coal, and wanted to change to a hydro, the only way to do it would be to build a hydro.

Building a new plant replaces the old one you had, so there is no advantage in building two. Although after you build hoover.... there really isn't a point to building a plant in any city on the continent.

	01-05-2002 20:34									#232
	Inflate your Upload Space

The plant problem refers to that if a building no longer is any use to be built, it should disappear from the build menu. I don't want a city to auto-build it.

	01-05-2002 20:51									#233
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i had the hoover dam and was pretty sure that that was the best power source.

but when i saw solar power and nuclear power...i decided i had to build solar. So now i'm thinking i shot myself in the foot...cause you can't sell improvements now and you have to pay the extra upkeep.


edit: thanks Lucilla! you are right. i didn't see a sell button so i left clicked on the improvement and figured you couldn't sell.

heh but you are right --right click.
only 40 gold for a solar plant --but it'll save on maintenance

Last edited by Redstar on 01-05-2002 at 22:05

	01-05-2002 21:40									#234
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Redstar i had the hoover dam and was pretty sure that that was the best power source. but when i saw solar power and nuclear power...i decided i had to build solar. So now i'm thinking i shot myself in the foot...cause you can't sell improvements now and you have to pay the extra upkeep.

Usually you can sell improvements, if they cost maintenance. You have to right-click on it and select the "sell" option. I didn't try that with power plants so far, but I used that for selling barracks.

	01-05-2002 22:13									#235
	bug? Increase the size of your Attachments

Playing Monarch as Babylon last night I received Monarchy from Germany as part of a peace treaty. That should have triggered a wonder in my build lists and the wonder was not yet finished by another civ. But the wonder failed to show up. Has anyone else received techs in deals and not been able to build the wonders associated with them?

	01-05-2002 23:30									#236
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There's two things restricting wonder building:

1) some wonder can only be built in coastal cities (e.g. Great Lighthouse)

2) if you already received shields from disbanding a unit in that city, you can't build a wonder until the current unit is finished

Does that explain your situation? Hanging Gardens that come with Monarchy don't require a coastal city, as far as i know.

	01-05-2002 23:36									#237
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Another explanation could be, that you don't know all civs yet. I'm not sure whether you would be informed about a wonder being finished by a civ you didn't have contact with.

	01-05-2002 23:56									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Lucilla Another explanation could be, that you don't know all civs yet. I'm not sure whether you would be informed about a wonder being finished by a civ you didn't have contact with.

Thats what happened in my last game of 1.21. As soon as I had contact with their cultural boundaries I could see if a wonder was being built.

	02-05-2002 03:33									#239
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- Hitting the F3 key ( military advisor ) has caused the game to crash twice yet with my 1.21f game ( never happened before ) and returned to Windows ( "..program has provoked an error...and will be closed...").

- the AI is effectively less aggressive ( but not that much ) in its tech trading BUT strangely we have all reached the eras in record time next to my previous games. Have the base values of some techs been decreased ???

	02-05-2002 03:42									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Master Marcus - the AI is effectively less aggressive ( but not that much ) in its tech trading BUT strangely we have all reached the eras in record time next to my previous games. Have the base values of some techs been decreased ???

I don;t think that the AI to AI trading parameter affects how prolific the tech trading is... it just affects how equally and fairly it trades with the human player.

So in some respects... now that the human player is now a Tech 'whorer' tech trading and consequently tech progression will occur even more rapidly.

I would try increasing the Minimum research time - Increase it from 8 (or whatever the base is for your difficulty setting) to say 12 and see how that goes.