23-04-2002 00:21									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Nationalist: I'm quite intolerant against most forms of nationalism that I regard as a concept that crawled out from the darkest corners from the intelectual world of the 19th century. As for you analysis. I think you portrayed all immigrants as unwilling to anything but strictly economic integration. As I'm no expert of all countries in the world but that's much more complex than that. It usually takes two to tango, so to speak.

I could have a long argument with you about the merits of Nationalism, but I really don' want to spend the time. I think that you have a narrow minded view of nationalism based on the current popular opinions that are anti-nationalism. I think that there is no better way for people to live together than in a nation, for many reasons. I also think that Nationalsim is the best way to fight against Globalization and the "McDonaldization" of the world (I'm American and I don't like that idea. IMO, McDonalds and Hollywood represent the most base and despicable aspects of American culture. I hate the distorted view of America that Hollywood and MTV spew into the world) What is your preferred social system?

As for Immigrants, my anaylisis is simplified ( I said that it would be) But, at least in America, there seems to be a strong anti-assimilation will of new immigrants. They don't want the country to be a melting pot. They don't care about the country's past or traditions or language or culture. That's why people have been calling the U.S. a cultural "tossed salad" (pun intended?) People want to celebrate diversity thruogh condeming anything traditional. I think that that is predjuicing against me, my culture, and my rights. As a white, straight, conservative, Christian, male American, I am depicted as the most evil thing to ever walk the Earth. THis leads to anti-Immigrant tension in the U.S. We don't want to be bilingual, and we don't feel that itis right for newcomers to come and force their language on us, much as the French don't want English forced upon them. But overall, it seems that most immigrants want to come here for the money. The evidence is in the unwillingness to learn the language or history.

	23-04-2002 00:22									#242
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 nationalist I don't read what you post. Because you respond to my trolls. Don't tire yourself

Its cathartic. Plus, I'm relatively new here. What exactly is a troll? Just a post written to elicit an angry response?

	23-04-2002 00:25									#243
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yes

	23-04-2002 00:33									#244
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quote: you seem to be surprised.

According to Giancarloism, rightwingers are more pro-American than leftwingers.

	23-04-2002 00:38									#245
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Although you don't want a long argument I'll put the records straight at least.

quote: Originally posted by nationalist I think that you have a narrow minded view of nationalism based on the current popular opinions that are anti-nationalism.

As I hopefully know more of what I base my opinions than you do I'd say that my view is based on reading much about the role of nationalism and ethnicity in history and come to the conclution that I don't at all agree with the concept of nationalism and what it brings with it. It's a ideological standpoint based on my view of the world and the nature of mankind.

quote: But, at least in America, there seems to be a strong anti-assimilation will of new immigrants. They don't want the country to be a melting pot. They don't care about the country's past or traditions or language or culture.[ ...] overall, it seems that most immigrants want to come here for the money. The evidence is in the unwillingness to learn the language or history.

In my studies of the labourmarked integration of immigrants in Sweden in the post-war period I've stumbled over a lot of different viewpoints on the matter of integration and assimulation of immigrants.

One of the reason for the unwiillingness of immigrants to learn the language might in at least the US be the result of a economic segmentation with ethnic implications (see for example books by Sasiska Sassen). What one should demand of the immigrants is a open question and since I'm not a nationalist my demands are probably diversed from you.

	23-04-2002 00:41									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Well, what is to be done? Ban abortion, put the little lady back between the fist and the stove where she belongs, have religion mandated by state and keep gays so far back in closet they're about to meet Aslan, and by Jebus, we'll surely beat those anti-woman, anti-gay, intolerant religious Moslem fanatics by then? Is this one of those things where you beat the enemy by turning into the enemy?

I said nothing about keeping women at the stove. I believe that women should have equal rights. However, I just don't think that abortion is a right that anyone should have. Women have the right to choose, as do men. If you don't want a baby, don't have sex. If you still decide to, be prepared to deal with the consequences. Why should someone have to die because you can't keep it in your pants or use a condom?

I see nothing wrong with being religious, but apparently you do. I also believe in right and wrong. I am intolerant agianist what I see is wrong. I guess that doesn't fly in this new, modern, morally-relativistic world. (Unless, of course, you want to be intolerant against whites, Christianity, or Western heritage and culture. That's evil, so everyone should hate it.)

I think that gays should be in the closet. Who cares if they are gay. That is their own decision, they don't have to continuously throw it in everyone's face. On my campus, I can't walk five feet without seeing gay pride stickers and posters everywhere. Who cares? Should I organize a straight pride club, and have a rally and march up and down the streets and yell that I'm straight? No. Because no one cares. Its none of their business. They try to force their views and orientation down everyone's throats, and tell you that your religion is wrong if you don't agree with them. I think that that is pretty damned close minded.

As for supporting militant, fundamentalist Muslims, it seems to me that many European countries already do that through their support of Palestine and its Hezbollah soldiers.

	23-04-2002 00:49									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin As I hopefully know more of what I base my opinions than you do I'd say that my view is based on reading much about the role of nationalism and ethnicity in history and come to the conclution that I don't at all agree with the concept of nationalism and what it brings with it. It's a ideological standpoint based on my view of the world and the nature of mankind.

Good, at least you have put some thought in your positions. Most people don't, and therefore people usually have to show me that they have given things some thought. I have also studied more than you seem to give me credit for. I have studied for a while, and have come to the conclusion that nationalism is a good system. That is why I don't want to start a long discussion. We could probably go on for a long time. The immigrant question is also very long, and I have tried to sum up my opinions on the matter as concisely as possible. To do it in one sentence: Immigrants in the U.S. are unwelcomed due to a percieved attitude of anti-assimilation, along with their willingness to work for low wages.

Add these things with the concepts I introduced in my first post, and you end up with a potentially volitile combination.

	23-04-2002 01:01									#248
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Nationalist, if you are a christian, then why are you so brutally intolerant toward other people?

	23-04-2002 01:04									#249
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist and you end up with a potentially volitile combination.

Life is a volitile combination

	23-04-2002 01:04									#250
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Nationalist, if you are a christian, then why are you so brutally intolerant toward other people?

I'm not brutally intolerant. That's the point. I stand up for what I believe in. Therefore, I am brutally intolerant. Just doesn't seem fair.

	23-04-2002 01:07									#251
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You are not brutally intolerant simply due to standing up for what you believe in. However, what you believe in can be described as brutally intolerant, by most standards.

	23-04-2002 01:11									#252
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider You are not brutally intolerant simply due to standing up for what you believe in. However, what you believe in can be described as brutally intolerant, by most standards.

Define "brutally intolerant" and define whose standards.

	23-04-2002 01:20									#253
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I could be a wise guy and apply some kind of a word for word dictionary defintion. But I think the context of my quote can be best defined as exceedingly intolerant and therefore this excessive intolerance can be objectively seen as brutal by the standards of either current society as a whole (e.g the western world as of 2002), or, if you prefer, the theological standards of Christ. I appologize if I seem rather harsh, my intial post was much more out of a sort of sadness I felt for you, rather than actual resentment.

	23-04-2002 01:28									#254
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Thank you for you personal concern, but I assure you tht I don't need your sympathy. I have a complex view of the world, with nuanced opinions. I've thought out my positions, and I don't think that they are brutally intloerant. I am just against having everything that I stand for being disrepected and insulted. If you want to continue this discussion, PM me, because I don't think that this thread was designed for me to explain personal beliefs.

	23-04-2002 01:47									#255
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I think that Saturday Night Live said it best this week.

"Isn't it time that we all went back to hating France?"

It's funny 'cause it's true.

	23-04-2002 03:11									#256
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well I have had time to read some of the excrement you posted nationalist.

You are by any definition a fascist in the closet.

I read you don't like abortions.
Stick it. Live in America and breed like rabbits. It's your fundamentalist country. Not mine.
Women are respected here.

You like religion. Feel free to worship whatever calms your fascist nerves.

Well, that's all. Besides, no matter how much you're gonna breed you will be Mexica in a few decades, so don't sweat it, you're propably gonna use your license gun and start shooting them down so they don't "pollute" your race.

BTW, what's wrong with Europe having arabic as a second language if that ever happens?
Do you think arabs are inferior? Are you too an anti-muslim american? (talking about a racist country )

	23-04-2002 03:19									#257
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And BTW, living in America won't "protect" you.
We're gonna protest long and hard, keep the pressure up year after year, decade after decade so that you abolish your barbaric death penalty and you start treating women with respect and without your fundamentalist dark ages ways.

Look out Yankee, 'cause you ain't seen nothing yet.

	23-04-2002 03:24									#258
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Paiktis--some of us Yankees will welcome you with open arms.

	23-04-2002 03:25									#259
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I know. Sorry for the generalization.

	23-04-2002 03:30									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Eli That's why I voted for him. The enemy of your enemy...

Yes, it's interesting that you'd want him to win, given that he dismisses the importance of the Holocaust as "a detail of history". Think about the group that sides with you, Eli...

	23-04-2002 03:30									#261
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 well I have had time to read some of the excrement you posted nationalist.

I'm glad that you like them. Its entertaining to see you get so angry. Never encountered a right winger before? I am quite used to battling left wingers.

quote: read you don't like abortions. Stick it. Live in America and breed like rabbits. It's your fundamentalist country. Not mine. Women are respected here.

This isn't about women's rights. The majority of Pro-Lifers are women. Americans respect women. You've apparently never heard of the Southern gentleman. Oh well, I'm glad people like you are killing off your own children. Leaves more room for mine. Natural selection? You lack a fundamental knowledge of America.

BTW, I'm sure you know that the birth rate of every European country but Albania is under 2. You socialists are dying out. In 100 years, only the right wingers will be left over there, because they have the common sense and moral virtue to start and raise a family.

quote: Besides, no matter how much you're gonna breed you will be Mexica in a few decades

Not if we start enforcing our immigration laws and our borders.
Plus. if it gets that bad, I'm sure that there will be an American LePen. The world should be careful if that ever happens.

quote: don't sweat it, you're propably gonna use your license gun and start shooting them down so they don't "pollute" your race.

or I could go to a European country and start shooting random people. I won't get in trouble, because the government wouldn't have the balls to punish me. I don't understand why Europeans think its wrong to execute a mass murderer, but alright to kill a baby. I guess I just have a fundamental misunderstanding of Europe.

quote: BTW, what's wrong with Europe having arabic as a second language if that ever happens?

I was saying that Arabic will be Europe's first language. And I'm not drawing on a personal disdain for arabs, I'm reading European news sources. If there was no Anti-Arabic sentiment in France, how would LePen have recieved so much support?

	23-04-2002 03:33									#262
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist I'm glad that you like them. Its entertaining to see you get so angry. Never encountered a right winger before? I am quite used to battling left wingers

You're a silly little boy.

"Battling" left-wingers? How heroic.

	23-04-2002 03:34									#263
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 And BTW, living in America won't "protect" you. We're gonna protest long and hard, keep the pressure up year after year, decade after decade so that you abolish your barbaric death penalty and you start treating women with respect and without your fundamentalist dark ages ways. Look out Yankee, 'cause you ain't seen nothing yet.

That'll be the day. No one cares what you people have to say. Hey, I have an idea, why not go on a hunger strike to get rid of capital punishment? You call capital punishment barbaric, but you support abortion as a fundamental right of a woman. Amusing. Ignorant. Sure sign that Europe is swiftly declining into insignificance.

	23-04-2002 03:35									#264
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Bah, go to your violence infested ghettos and smoke your crack.

Oh, I'm sorry this is what you have condemned blacks into doing... Right... natural selection there too.

Say, how many school shootings did you have today in your sick american society? (created by little fascistoids like you?).

About women, well if they don't wanna they don't have to, but if they want to , they can. And it's coming your way.

	23-04-2002 03:36									#265
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Bah, go to your violence infested ghettos and smoke your crack. Oh, I'm sorry this is what you have condemned blacks into doing... Right... natural selection there too. Say, how many school shootings did you have today in your sick american society? (created by little fascistoids like you?). About women, well if they don't wanna they don't have to, but if they want to , they can.

Sorry, I was too busy watching you put Turks into wage slavery while rounding up Jews and couldn't hear what you said.

	23-04-2002 03:37									#266
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quote: keep gays so far back in closet they're about to meet Aslan

That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time

	23-04-2002 03:39									#267
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Well you do know about that wouldn't you?

Blacks, slavery, death penalty (affecting mostly blacks)
It's all in the Grand American Tradition.

*american minimum wage... ooops...!*

you sure have a nice society there. but it ain't gonna last 'cause it's too sick for the people who don't like little fascist tricks.

Just keep on hoping some black man won't start lose it and start shooting you like he should.

Because then, you don't have any health insurance either...

Someday you must join the 21th century... wanting to, or being dragged at it

	23-04-2002 03:41									#268
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I do have to say that I'll laugh my butt off if the French accidentally elect Le Pen the sameway they elevated him to the second round.

	23-04-2002 03:42									#269
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Zorba, it isn't nice to annoy the newbie.

	23-04-2002 03:43									#270
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Wow what a constructive and open-minded debate based on facts and empirical studies. And some like to think that every thread on apolyton quickly turns into spam, trolls and personal insults.