26-04-2002 18:50									#31
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I totally agree Ming, this guy is a sick ****in arsehole who should be thrown in jail for this!

What kind of people are you calling friends Gibsie???

	26-04-2002 18:51									#32
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A 14 year old cannot make important decisions regarding sex. I was 14 once, and I thought I could. I'm 21 now, and I understand why people said I wasn't old enough. There are many people who are 21 who can't make mature decisions.

4 years is not a long time. That 14 year old is 4 years removed from being 10 years old. As unfair as rules might seem when you're young, they are necessary.

	26-04-2002 18:53									#33
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Thank you for reposting your thoughts sava. I agree

	26-04-2002 19:13									#34
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LordAzreal:

quote: Isn't that as bad as sexual abuse?

No, definatly not.


Drake:

quote: Its a moral question as much as it is a legal one Tom

Aha
Moral is a tough theme. It is seen diffrent by diffrent groups, religions, etc. After all everyone has his own list of morals he chooses to live after. I opose having any of these personal morals in a law.
If the realationship for the 2 which matter here is moraly ok. I dont see any problem.


Ming:

quote: There is a reason for that... SHE IS A VICTIM OF SEXUAL ABUSE!

As you can see on the other repleys, this is argueable.
I personal cant see the reason why?

quote: If he loved her so much, he could wait... which we know he won't because all he wants to do is take advantage of her.

How do you know that? Maybe she likes the sex with him - it seems they had it more than once. That implies she does like it. How is that, taking advantage of someone?
How do you know they dont love each other?


Sava:

quote: That 14 year old is 4 years removed from being 10 years old.

And it is also only 4 years till she reach 18.


I agree a scenario like u guys paint is possible. But to say its in general that way can only be wrong. I would be carefull in forming a mob, shouting someone should be put in jail, I barely know any facts about.

By the way do you guys also opose relationships between ppl. which are not minor but have big age diffrences? Like 20 + 50 or something?

	26-04-2002 19:17									#35
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You can't go up the scale the same you can go down the scale. For instance, 4 years between the ages of 24-28 is not that big a change, yet 4 years between 2-6 is. 10-14 and 14-18 is 4 years, but it is a very different 4 years. At 14, most kids are in the middle of maturity, some have yet to reach it. Even at 18, people are not fully developed, but they are eclipsing the stage where they can fully understand that decision.

If you think it's okay to have sex with 14 year olds, than you need to have your head checked. And you better hope I never see you on the street you sicko.

	26-04-2002 19:18									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 I would be carefull in forming a mob, shouting someone should be put in jail, I barely know any facts about.

The facts are clear... he is breaking the law... no need for a mob, just a call to the police.

quote: By the way do you guys also opose relationships between ppl. which are not minor but have big age diffrences? Like 20 + 50 or something?

No... I have no problem with two "consenting adults" doing whatever they want on a sexual basis as long as it doesn't harm others.

	26-04-2002 19:18									#37
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In Holland the age of consent is the same for everyone regardless of gender or sexual orientation; it is twelve provided that there is an age difference of no more than four years, and that the parents of those involve approve; otherwise, it is fourteen.

The entire country is OK enough with this concept to have it inscribed in law.

	26-04-2002 19:21									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The facts are clear... he is breaking the law... no need for a mob, just a call to the police.

Yup... the facts can't get much more clear. 14.... illegal.... 17 and 11 months and 30 days.... illegal... 18 ... legal....

It's not nice to have to put things in black and white, but in this case, its necessary.

quote: No... I have no problem with two "consenting adults" doing whatever they want on a sexual basis as long as it doesn't harm others.

Exactly! If two adults want to dress up like donkeys and screw themselves with all types of phallic symbols, that's their own business. Just please do it in private.

	26-04-2002 19:27									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Yup... the facts can't get much more clear. 14.... illegal.... 17 and 11 months and 30 days.... illegal... 18 ... legal.... It's not nice to have to put things in black and white, but in this case, its necessary. Exactly! If two adults want to dress up like donkeys and screw themselves with all types of phallic symbols, that's their own business. Just please do it in private.

As I've noted, its location dependent. Whilst much of the world has an 18 yr old age of consent, its far from everywhere.

	26-04-2002 19:27									#40
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Mormon communities in the US for example.

	26-04-2002 19:32									#41
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This thread is about a situation in a country where the age is 18. If the legal age is 4 in Kookamonga, I don't care. In America, its 18.

	26-04-2002 19:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Mormon communities in the US for example.

Mormon's have problems okay... please don't think that America is in anyway reflective of some cult society.

	26-04-2002 19:35									#43
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quote: If you think it's okay to have sex with 14 year olds, than you need to have your head checked. And you better hope I never see you on the street you sicko.

1. I think there are a lot of boys, which are sexual atracted to the 14year old girls in their school class and I cant see anything sick about it.
2. I would say for me (21) a 14 year old is indeed a bit young Probably we are not on the same ripe stadium, have not the same interest or whatever.
But I wouldnt have a problem with it, when I fall in love with an "underaged" girl (which than would be most likly on a higher ripe stadium than her age implies).
3. As you can see in the post of MrBaggins, the relationship as describeb in this thread is perfectly legal around here.

	26-04-2002 19:40									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 1. I think there are a lot of boys, which are sexual atracted to the 14year old girls in their school class and I cant see anything sick about it.

That's exactly the point. At 14, you have no idea what's going on. Hormones are pumping through you and most 14 year old boys would stick it in the first thing that said "Yes."

Sex is an important part of a relationship between 2 people. Having sex at a young age harbors consequences that can lead to emotional problems later in life. If you don't believe me, read any number of books on psychology. Or better yet, go to as many therapists as you can and poll them about this. The overwhelming majority will agree with me.

	26-04-2002 19:42									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sava That's exactly the point. At 14, you have no idea what's going on. Hormones are pumping through you and most 14 year old boys would stick it in the first thing that said "Yes." Sex is an important part of a relationship between 2 people. Having sex at a young age harbors consequences that can lead to emotional problems later in life. If you don't believe me, read any number of books on psychology. Or better yet, go to as many therapists as you can and poll them about this. The overwhelming majority will agree with me.

What you are doing, Sava... is imposing your morals on another country. What makes your morals more right than Hollands?

The way things work in Holland... are that sex is less socially stigmatized... and that you don't go to jail for having consensual sex with a 14 year old. End of Story.

	26-04-2002 19:43									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 [q] 2. I would say for me (21) a 14 year old is indeed a bit young Probably we are not on the same ripe stadium, have not the same interest or whatever. But I wouldnt have a problem with it, when I fall in love with an "underaged" girl (which than would be most likly on a higher ripe stadium than her age implies).

It does like you are a borderline sicko. There's nothing wrong with taking a look at a younger girl. Sometimes its even tough to tell a 16 year old from a 20 year old. But you have to understand that somebody that young doesn't have the emotional maturity to make intellegent decisions. Hence, that's why they call it taking advantage.

It disturbs me that you say "when I fall in love with an underage girl". There shouldn't even be an "if"... let alone a "when". Hopefully you can show restraint.

	26-04-2002 19:44									#47
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Hm, is the problem. Sex with 14 in general. Or only older guys have sex with underaged girls?

	26-04-2002 19:48									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins What you are doing, Sava... is imposing your morals on another country. What makes your morals more right than Hollands? The way things work in Holland... are that sex is less socially stigmatized... and that you don't go to jail for having consensual sex with a 14 year old. End of Story.

Preventing an older person from taking advantage of a younger person is a moral. And yes, I would be imposing a moral on another country. But remember, the Allies were imposing morals on the Nazis when they liberated the Jews.

That's an extreme comparison, but it is justifiable. In all cases, preventing sex before 18 does no damage to a person. But, allowing sex before 18 can potentially cause problems. If you are imposing a moral that has no negatives, yet can potentially prevent negatives, it is in society's best interest to enforce that moral.

	26-04-2002 19:51									#49
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I don't see protests in Washington DC, London and Paris trying to get Holland to mend its evil ways. National Socialism, and a different social sexual policy position are two entirely different entities.

There is no proof in studies in Holland that the policy is harmful. They should know... they live it.

	26-04-2002 19:52									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sava This thread is about a situation in a country where the age is 18. If the legal age is 4 in Kookamonga, I don't care. In America, its 18.

The age of consent in Cucamonga is 18. Same as it is for the rest of California.

Its on the road between Los Angeles and Las Vegas.

	26-04-2002 19:52									#51
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As you wrote yourself its often hard to tell how old someone is when you dont know it.
The hypothetical relationship between me and an underaged girl is unlikly and as I wrote is maybe only possible, if the girl has a higher ripe stadium than her age implies.
Im not that much dependend on stats. I take the personality very much in account and judge about a person based on that. If this person happens to dont match on stats (to small for my height, to young for my age, etc.), I dont really care.
But Im for sure far from being a monster.

	26-04-2002 19:52									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 Hm, is the problem. Sex with 14 in general. Or only older guys have sex with underaged girls?

A 14 year old having sex with another 14 year old is not as big a problem as older guys having sex with underaged girls. But if two 14 year olds are soulmates, then waiting would not be a problem. If the love is really there, they can wait until they are 18. Sex has two main purposes. Reproduction and physical pleasure. Expressing love is not a function of sex. It is possible to make love with somebody without having sex. If two 14 year olds love each other, they can express it with their desire to wait to engage in sex. If at 14, you can support having a child, then I would be more inclined to allow it.

	26-04-2002 19:56									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins I don't see protests in Washington DC, London and Paris trying to get Holland to mend its evil ways. National Socialism, and a different social sexual policy position are two entirely different entities. There is no proof in studies in Holland that the policy is harmful. They should know... they live it.

I'm not on a high horse to get Holland to change its ways. I could give have a sh!t about Holland. If their moral mistakes start affecting me, then I will care. I'm just stating my opinion on the matter. Yes, they are two different entities, but its the same level of moral absence, just on a different degree.

I do agree with you that Holland teaches better sexual maturity than the United States. That is why it is not as big a problem in your country.

	26-04-2002 19:57									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 As you wrote yourself its often hard to tell how old someone is when you dont know it. The hypothetical relationship between me and an underaged girl is unlikly and as I wrote is maybe only possible, if the girl has a higher ripe stadium than her age implies. Im not that much dependend on stats. I take the personality very much in account and judge about a person based on that. If this person happens to dont match on stats (to small for my height, to young for my age, etc.), I dont really care. But Im for sure far from being a monster.

Okay, I wasn't sure if you were talking about a hypothetical. But I hope that if you found yourself in love with a 14 year old, you would be able to wait until she was old enough before becoming sexually active.

	26-04-2002 20:00									#55
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quote: Quote by Sava I'm not on a high horse to get Holland to change its ways. I could give have a sh!t about Holland. If their moral mistakes start affecting me, then I will care. I'm just stating my opinion on the matter. Yes, they are two different entities, but its the same level of moral absence, just on a different degree. I do agree with you that Holland teaches better sexual maturity than the United States. That is why it is not as big a problem in your country.

Its not my country... I am just aware that differing cultures have differing ideas about the AOC and other sexual matters, and understand that they are entitled to differing views. I don't have a firm viewpoint on what the AOC should be... although it seems that the AOC of 18 was made in a time when individuals in society matured at a slower pace, and the general AOC has not kept pace with that reality. Off the top of my head... maybe a 16 year old now, is mature as an 18 year old then.

	26-04-2002 20:02									#56
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quote: That's an extreme comparison, but it is justifiable. In all cases, preventing sex before 18 does no damage to a person. But, allowing sex before 18 can potentially cause problems. If you are imposing a moral that has no negatives, yet can potentially prevent negatives, it is in society's best interest to enforce that moral.

It does damage. It prevents ppl. from living the ways they want. Preventing them from having the best fun there is. Violating Privacy and personal Freedom.

If these are no reasons for you, here something else:
The rate on teenage pregnacies in the UK (which has restrictive laws on sex) is far higher, compared to the Netherlands.
Figure out why

	26-04-2002 20:03									#57
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Physically, a 14 year old girls body isnt fully developed.

Unless the guys Johnson is miniscule, a fully grown adult male would probably have trouble having intercourse with such a young girl.

	26-04-2002 20:07									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 It does damage. It prevents ppl. from living the ways they want. Preventing them from having the best fun there is. Violating Privacy and personal Freedom. If these are no reasons for you, here something else: The rate on teenage pregnacies in the UK (which has restrictive laws on sex) is far higher, compared to the Netherlands. Figure out why

If everyone could do what they wanted there would be complete anarchy. Social control is necessary. If everyone could do what they wanted, nobody would clean sh!t. But somebody has to do it for the better of society.

The teenage pregnancy rate in the UK is not higher solely because of the restrictive law. It is higher because parents don't feel the need to teach morals because they figure the law will take care of it. In a perfect society there would be no laws because everybody would be morally good. But unfortunately, this isn't a perfect world.

Let me ask you this. If murder was made legal, do you think murder rates would rise or fall?

	26-04-2002 20:10									#59
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quote: Originally posted by drake Physically, a 14 year old girls body isnt fully developed. Unless the guys Johnson is miniscule, a fully grown adult male would probably have trouble having intercourse with such a young girl.

Some men enjoy causing physical damage to young girls' sex organs.

	26-04-2002 20:21									#60
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Well, even if they aren't hurting them Sava, they certainly aren't giving them any pleasure. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I doubt many girls aged 14 can have an orgasm through intercourse. And since we know they're not trying to have a kid, whats the point you ask?

Well it's quite simple. The girl wants to be accepted by the older pervert, I mean guy. It's a big thing for girls to go out with the older, more sophisticated guys. So she does what he wants to please him, so he accepts her. The girl is most likely vulnerable and needy for attention. And this pervert is more than happy to give it to her. Granted she give him what he wants.