26-04-2002 20:34									#61
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quote: If everyone could do what they wanted there would be complete anarchy. Social control is necessary. If everyone could do what they wanted, nobody would clean sh!t. But somebody has to do it for the better of society.

I agree with the cleaning up part
That one is for practical reasons. But having laws on (controvers) Moral stuff is only opressive to ppl. that dont share the same Morals as you. The USA is seen as the land of Freedom, moral laws is one of the things where it goes of the track.
Moral is personal and should stay that way. Everyone can believe in whatever morals he likes, as long as he dont force others to believe the same.


For the teenage pregnancy rate:
Countrys with resitrictive laws on sexual themes have also a restrictive society. From my (admited very short) experience in the UK (was there in a exchange family about 6 years ago), its a big tabu to speak with his parents about sex. It is an issue to buy condoms as a minor. And if you do the shopowner is very unfriendly and looks at you, like you did a big sin or whatever. That happend both 2 times I went there on diffrent places for condoms. The info about sex comes from hearsay.

So I think its save to say that its easier in the netherlands for teens to get: a) the info and knowledge and b) the possibilties for pregnancy prevention.
And that links to the general, sex laws and atitude in these countrys.

	26-04-2002 23:46									#62
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So Tom, do you support NAMBLA? Do you stay the pedophilia should be legalized? The guy in question is a pedophile.

	27-04-2002 00:12									#63
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I dont really know what the Nambla organisation stands for, and
Im too lazy to take a search on the web. So I dont know.

As for the question. I go with the Dutch law:
The age of consent is the same for everyone regardless of gender or sexual orientation; it is twelve provided that there is an age difference of no more than four years, and that the parents of those involve approve; otherwise, it is fourteen.

Its really the best I've seen on this issue and represents perfectly my personal opinion.


As for pedophilia:
There is a big diffrence between a child and a teenager. Child means for me anyone not yet able to get pregnant/have an erection. Thats somewhere at the age of 12.
Pedophilia laws should aply on kids not on teenagers. If that is not the case in your country, it should be changed. yes

	27-04-2002 00:17									#64
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i think it's perfectly ok for you to say something in this case...especially what you wanted to say..which was "eww!" and "she's 14!"
i know other countries tend to think that their women mature faster than american women, but from what i've seen, their 14 year olds are just as immature and hormone driven as the next female. I think at that age, she's looking to be cool among her peers by showing them she can date an older guy...and this guy prolly has mental problems to a certain degree in that he associates with a peer group much younger. That or he's living back in a time when older men would make arranged marriages with much younger females...i dunno.

	27-04-2002 02:18									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 As for the question. I go with the Dutch law: The age of consent is the same for everyone regardless of gender or sexual orientation; it is twelve provided that there is an age difference of no more than four years, and that the parents of those involve approve; otherwise, it is fourteen. Its really the best I've seen on this issue and represents perfectly my personal opinion.

I'm with ya Tom.

	27-04-2002 02:19									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 I dont really know what the Nambla organisation stands for, and

North American Man Boy Lovers Association


I thought it was a joke the first time I ran across them. They have a web site. Its a real organization. Real sick puppies they are.

	27-04-2002 02:37									#67
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A thread has been made to discuss NAMBLA, go check it out.

	27-04-2002 02:46									#68
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Uck... this guy is messed up. I mean, one of the reasons he'd go out with a girl that is 14, when he is 21, because he knows he can manipulate her. 14 year olds are naive. The 21 year old has been through schooling and realizes that this 14 year old is just going to be fawning all over him, since he is so old and that makes her feel pretty.

Playing with her emotions, and he knows it.

	27-04-2002 14:25									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 As for pedophilia: There is a big diffrence between a child and a teenager. Child means for me anyone not yet able to get pregnant/have an erection. Thats somewhere at the age of 12. Pedophilia laws should aply on kids not on teenagers. If that is not the case in your country, it should be changed. yes

Actually, boys can have erections at an early age. So would you be in favour of allowing a 21-year-old guy to have sex with an 8-year-old boy?

	27-04-2002 14:27									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Uck... this guy is messed up. I mean, one of the reasons he'd go out with a girl that is 14, when he is 21, because he knows he can manipulate her. 14 year olds are naive. The 21 year old has been through schooling and realizes that this 14 year old is just going to be fawning all over him, since he is so old and that makes her feel pretty. Playing with her emotions, and he knows it.

Yeah, the guy is messed up and he's a loser. The guy can't get any women his own age to date him so he starts hitting on 14-year-old. Big time loser.

	27-04-2002 14:40									#71
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If it was a 16-year old boy with a 14-year old girl I would be less concerned, but that 7 year age gap throws the relationship off-balance. This isn't two kids experimenting with their sexuality- it's manipulation. I can't see how it can be considered anything other than abusive.

	27-04-2002 14:42									#72
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quote: Actually, boys can have erections at an early age. So would you be in favour of allowing a 21-year-old guy to have sex with an 8-year-old boy?

I meant boys which are actually able to have an orgasm. Thats for the deffinition child vs teenager.
What I would allow, I stated above (-> Dutch Law)

	27-04-2002 14:53									#73
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quote: This isn't two kids experimenting with their sexuality- it's manipulation. I can't see how it can be considered anything other than abusive.

How do you know that for sure? Maybe the initiative comes from her? Maybe they love each other? There is even the possibilty the 21year one hadnt sexual experience bevor, and they are on same level
You shouldnt be so fast with your judgements based on assumptions.

	27-04-2002 15:02									#74
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Regardless of whether the 21 year-old has had sex or not you're still looking at a sizeable gap in life experiences.

If you were 21 and shafting a 14 year-old girl, would you feel comfortable to announce this in a public place?

	27-04-2002 15:17									#75
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I answered this in this thread already:

quote: ... As you wrote yourself its often hard to tell how old someone is when you dont know it. The hypothetical relationship between me and an underaged girl is unlikly and as I wrote is maybe only possible, if the girl has a higher ripe stadium than her age implies. Im not that much dependend on stats. I take the personality very much in account and judge about a person based on that. If this person happens to dont match on stats (to small for my height, to young for my age, etc.), I dont really care. But Im for sure far from being a monster.

For the other question: I wouldnt hide it. I expect that maybe some ppl. would have a problem with it. I wouldnt care, and I think its wrong.
The only ppl. that can have a say I would listen too, are those that know both partners, have some real info etc.
But I dont support random bashing based on assumptions.

	27-04-2002 15:20									#76
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quote: Interfering in Other Peoples' Sex Lives

Don't do it.

	27-04-2002 15:20									#77
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quote: Originally posted by LordAzreal Regardless of whether or not this girl is mature enough to make rational decisions for herself, she is still a minor, and it is still illegal for this guy to make sexual contact with her. He shouldn't be doing it

If he moves to Canada then it's all cool.

	27-04-2002 15:24									#78
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Tom: On the one hand you're justifying this guys action by citing dutch law and on the other hand you're saying that it is up to the individuals involved.

What makes Dutch law correct? Why did Holland pick 14, but not 12 or 16? Just because the Dutch have this law doesn't make it justify its existence?

I've worked with lots of teenagers and I would say that 14 year olds are still children. At 14, a child's ability to understand abstract concepts is just developing.

	27-04-2002 15:25									#79
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This has always seemed a bit young, though. I'd move the age to 16, if I were in charge.

EDIT: and Tingkai, the law's similar in Canuckland.

	27-04-2002 15:26									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 How do you know that for sure? Maybe the initiative comes from her? Maybe they love each other?

What is love then? How do you define love?

I'm 18, and I don't fully know it. My 18 year old friends also don't know. Some 26 year olds I know still don't. How can you expect a 14 year old to know?

quote: There is even the possibilty the 21year one hadnt sexual experience bevor, and they are on same level

He has had sexual contact with her. He was lamenting on not being able to see her except for a certain time each month, and then had the audacity to say that it was OK because he still gets head.

	27-04-2002 15:44									#81
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Some of the comments coming from the US contingent are bang out of order, accusing Tom201 of being a paedophile effectively would warrant restriction from me. They are a defamation of character and a urge you to stop them now.

As I say, it depends on the girl and the individuals involved. It is too easy to draw arbitrary borderlines. Simple fact is, people, you don't know enough about the situation.

And what kind of age of consent is 18? This isn't the 19th century anymore. Seriously, you can seem so prudish at times.

	27-04-2002 15:58									#82
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quote: Tom: On the one hand you're justifying this guys action by citing dutch law and on the other hand you're saying that it is up to the individuals involved.

There is a diffrence between what is legal and what is moral. I dont think laws should represent moral 100% of the time. That is not possible cose:
a) Everyone has a diffrent set of Morals. The atemp to have a special set of morals from a certain group of ppl. as a law is opressive to those who dont share the same Morals.
b) Morals are dependend on situations, while laws are made for general.

Therefor Laws should be the outer Border, while Morals are the inner one. For example: It is allowed in most (free) countrys to have sex without marriage. But it can be a moral problem, if you are a member of certain religios groups.

So, when you now say it can be morally correct to have sex with 14 year old dependend on the persons involved, the law is correct.

	27-04-2002 16:18									#83
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse This has always seemed a bit young, though. I'd move the age to 16, if I were in charge. EDIT: and Tingkai, the law's similar in Canuckland.

I thought the law in Canada was that you can't have sex with someone under 16 unless you are within two years of that person's age. (e.g. it is legal for a 17-year-old to have sex with a 15-year-old, but it is illegal for an 18-year-old to have sex with a 15-year-old).

The law also states that if you are in a position of authority, you are not allowed to have sex with someone under your authority who is younger than 18.

	27-04-2002 16:22									#84
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It's what you said, but with 14 in place of 16.

Parliament just rejected a member's bill from the Alliance that would have moved the age to 16, in addition to banning written child porn stories.

EDIT: that was for those who think we should ban thoughtcrime.

	27-04-2002 16:31									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 So, when you now say it can be morally correct to have sex with 14 year old dependend on the persons involved, the law is correct.

So what you are saying is that the law should reflect community moral standards.

If you believe that then you have to accept that the dutch law can still be "oppresive" to people who believe that it is okay to have sex with a 10-year-old child.

You would also have to accept that while the Dutch law may be suitable for Holland, it cannot be used a universal standard because it is only based on Dutch standards of morality.

	27-04-2002 16:34									#86
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It's what you said, but with 14 in place of 16. Parliament just rejected a member's bill from the Alliance that would have moved the age to 16, in addition to banning written child porn stories. EDIT: that was for those who think we should ban thoughtcrime.

That means, and this is really hard to admit, but I agree with an Alliance policy.

Edit: the bit about raising the age to 16.

	27-04-2002 16:38									#87
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I'd also change the law to eliminate the distinction that is made (due to earlier laws, IIRC) between normal sex and anal penetration. Luckily, this distinction has already been ruled unconstitutional by courts in several provinces, and it's doubtful that any other provinces will try to enforce it.

	27-04-2002 16:42									#88
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Tom, your point about morals is flawed. As I pointed out before, the Nazis had morals. They didn't include the slaughter of Jews. Just because a large group of people agree on something, doesn't make it right. I'm not asking you to believe me. Go get some books and do some research into the psychology of love and relationships. In fact, go to a high school and look at kids that are 14-18. Regardless of what they may want to do, you cannot allow them to explore their sexuality at a young age. Especially not with older men who want to take advantage.

	27-04-2002 16:45									#89
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Come on sava, you've slurred this man enough times. He has a difference of opinions with you but at least you can respect his opinions rather than implying he is a sexual deviant or immoral. It is all about the choice of the individual. It is amazing how mature some 14 year olds are. You have to judge each situation on it's merits.

	27-04-2002 16:49									#90
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The Law is rather based on when or when not a teenager is able to make his/her own decisions.
When you look at other laws, concerning responsibility limits, its very reasonable. A child of 10 for example cant be charged for shoplifting. While there is a law, that from the age of 14 you are able to sign minor (privat) business contracts. Additionally you get in trouble for criminal activity.
I think this limits also should apply for other issues. Why isnt a teenager able to make decissions on sex, when he can on business stuff?