18-01-2003 03:56									#301
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I have heard the term "learn to fly", but I can not recall what you mean. Are you talking about an unarm scout, a runner or a CS sent blindly?

	18-01-2003 04:12									#302
	Suffering from ads?

Never, ever send an unaccompanied CS. Learn to fly means learn to put Scout ships out asap. Once a CS is ready they will always arrive accompanied.

500 production is not something you can easily replace.

	18-01-2003 04:34									#303
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I was not sure what you were saying since the sentence had colonize in it and no punctuation.
Something I am guilty of often, but can make it hard to follow for others.
Ok, so it was just the obvious sending out the scouts.
So how many scouts are you going to make? I normally only make one as it can usually cover its range before I get a new cell.

"All pop farms stop popping so they produce over 1/2 before reaching both AF and RL. Buy the rest and go right back to pop farming."
I need some clarification on this one. Stop pop farming at some point to get them to half full by research of AF/RL, is that what you are saying?

	18-01-2003 07:01									#304
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Original, I took the save1 and changed the traits to:
Uni Lith RHW LHW, Rep and it was already -spy.
I changed the HW to reflect the start for this pick. That is Terran instead Ocean and Rich instead of AHW. Pop was as it should be 8 of 16.
Here is the log up to T40. Let me know if that is how you wanted it to go.

T0 move all pop to ind, srt CB, sell barracks
T1 R-EC 0 RP 0 Food 0 freighters 0/8/0
T6 colonize II set to housing, srt CB
T12 colonize III set to housing, srt trade on I, move all to sci except 1.
T14 R-labs
T20 HIre Emo
T23 R- hull, srt RL on I (did not buy as it would be done in 2 turns)
T25 Nazin I housing, buy RL on II, mov 1 pop to I, srt RL on III
T27 R- af
T29 buy RL
T30 all on housing, mov 1 to I
T32 R-bio, srt AF on all
T34 R-freighters
T35 R-std cells
T36 R-colony ships
T37 srt scout on I, Bio on III
T39 srt spy on I, scout out
T40 R-Battle Pods
Here I have found a system that has 2 poor Med planets, one tundra and one barren.
Now you can either OP to that system or colonize the poor planets.
0/12/1 yields OP in 2 turns or CS in 8.

	18-01-2003 13:54									#305
	Tired of ads?

I thought you knew all of this but....

Once you build the 2 colony bases your next item will be spy with 1 worker. You will never build it. When you research RL, you switch RL to the top of your que and it is done or bought, same holds true for AF. Actually this holds true nearly everywhere. When I get a key tech, I change the design of my BB. I then move the updated bb to the top of my que and it is done next turn,if I timed the amount of production necessary, and I always do.

Early pop farm - assume that we have that poor doing 3 production. 10 turns before you hit labs you start producing a spy there. When RL becomes available you switch RL to the top and buy the rest. You would have 30 of the 60 required produced and the cost will be 2-1 (60 bc). This concept holds true for all structures on pop farm worlds. (RL, SC, AF, RM).

When set to housing pop farms never have more than 1 pop. All pop generated moves to the home world or other production worlds. Once you have a RL and AF on a pop farm it goes right back to pop farming.

BTW what were those 2 planets kicking out pop per turn before and after AF?

You went running for RL before you knew how to fly. Learn to fly first lay down at least the 1 colony ship (preferably 3 given optimal prox to enemy, monsters etc) before you ever go to RL or AF.

I always have several scouts out basically 1 at any system I could be hit from. They are my eyes to watch everyone else and give me as much notice as possible when they are coming.

In general the turn you research either AF or RL you should fill your planets with them. Imagine that you put 2 CS down and had 5 planets before you ever went to RL. You would get 25 RP from buildings without doing a thing.

Other things never build a spy until you are being spied upon. They are a waste. I don't think I ever exceed 13 defensive spies in a huge game (SP). No offensive they are a waste.

Also once you learn to fly (ie can build a scout that can fly) put scouts out (1 or 2 depending on location) and then start production on a BB. The goal here is to apply appropriate amounts to both research and production such that the turn you research CS you change production and put 1 out. This will minimize pollution in getting your first cs out.

Against a human my scouts are empty. Against the computer my first 2 are empty the ones used for eyes have a missile on them so I can win any frig war.

You probably got RL on turn 21 (way too early)
Don't put a bio on 3.
Build one (more later) set of freighters after you max out your home (18 it gets bios). That set will move pop to newly colonized systems.

You need to work on pop farming and how long to boom. Your start is at least 10 turns behind where it should be. If you are 10 turns behind early it only gets worse later.

Your general approach is similar to what I saw and did in the first 3-6 months I was on Ten 5+ years ago and that approach was good enough for me to win the first Ten tourney (only one I was aware of)....then it all changed.

	19-01-2003 00:07									#306
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

"Once you build the 2 colony bases your next item will be spy with 1 worker. You will never build it. When you research RL, you switch RL to the top of your que and it is done or bought, same holds true for AF."

I am familiar with the concept of place holding or accumulation, but I would have made the spy before I could queue up RL. IIRC, it was an 8 turn build and 10 turn research. Otherwise I would normally start an accumlator build as you say.
"Actually this holds true nearly everywhere. When I get a key tech, I change the design of my BB. I then move the updated bb to the top of my que and it is done next turn,if I timed the amount of production necessary, and I always do."
Yes that is what I do, update any ship designs if I learn any tech that impacts ships.
I am not sure about when you are talking here, though, must be some time after T40. I mean I do not want to build a BB before I even get pods.

"Early pop farm - assume that we have that poor doing 3 production. 10 turns before you hit labs you start producing a spy there. When RL becomes available you switch RL to the top and buy the rest. You would have 30 of the 60 required produced and the cost will be 2-1 (60 bc). This concept holds true for all structures on pop farm worlds. (RL, SC, AF, RM). "
Yup that is the way I would go as well. I thought you wanted an all out housing, so I did not go that route, sorry.

"When set to housing pop farms never have more than 1 pop. All pop generated moves to the home world or other production worlds. Once you have a RL and AF on a pop farm it goes right back to pop farming."
That is what I did, well ok, I pulled a fast one on the Bio.

"BTW what were those 2 planets kicking out pop per turn before and after AF?"
Each one of the new colonies made one pop in the order they were founded. This was due to not going to a prebuild for the RL.

"You went running for RL before you knew how to fly. Learn to fly first lay down at least the 1 colony ship (preferably 3 given optimal prox to enemy, monsters etc) before you ever go to RL or AF."
Sorry that would not be my normally path. I got stuck using the build form Bakalov. IOW I last played his format and I did not revert back, probably becasue I already knew the nearest systems from that run.
I tend to do a scout to look at the system as you could get lucky. You may find splinter or stranded leader or money, of course you may run into a monster.
I am not sure about cranking out a CS before I know I have any place to send one. I am not saying this is wrong, only that I have not given it any study. Obviously if you find a planet then it makes sense, if not you spent workers that could be researching and have nothing to show for it.

"I always have several scouts out basically 1 at any system I could be hit from. They are my eyes to watch everyone else and give me as much notice as possible when they are coming."

"In general the turn you research either AF or RL you should fill your planets with them. Imagine that you put 2 CS down and had 5 planets before you ever went to RL. You would get 25 RP from buildings without doing a thing."
That is what I did, build RL or AF everywhere ASAP. Like I said, the proposition of 5 planets is good, if there are available. Would you say that any planets outside of your home system are adequate? IOW would you leap on a planet in range if it was the only one and was say med/toxoc/poor or is there a point, in which you would ignore it or drop only an OP?

"Other things never build a spy until you are being spied upon. They are a waste. I don't think I ever exceed 13 defensive spies in a huge game (SP). No offensive they are a waste."
Well yes and no. Yes it makes sense to not build a spy until you have contact and that is how I often do it.
I started the spy as a prebuild, until I figured out what I wanted to do next (I stopped at this point). IOW I was undecided about what I was going to do next and just slapped it in the queue.

"Also once you learn to fly (ie can build a scout that can fly) put scouts out (1 or 2 depending on location) and then start production on a BB. The goal here is to apply appropriate amounts to both research and production such that the turn you research CS you change production and put 1 out. This will minimize pollution in getting your first cs out."
That is where I am at now, except I queued up a spy instead of BB. I need to either CS to those planets or OP
to get to the next sysems.

"Against a human my scouts are empty. Against the computer my first 2 are empty the ones used for eyes have a missile on them so I can win any frig war. "
Seems fair to me. I never built more than one scout, but I do not have a problem with it.

"You probably got RL on turn 21 (way too early)
Don't put a bio on 3."
Well what is my gain here? Just to save the maint? To do housing? I have one pop on ind and it can either house, bio or prebuild. Well there is nothinng to prebuil for, so it is either house or bio. Well Bio and then house. I am not sure if it matters much, but I could see a small edge in house here instead. I think that was planet was only size 3 and that is why I went to the bio. Do you see it as signifcant?
As to the RL, I think you point is that you would want to have scouts out instead of the early RL. In an SP game on a huge map, I am not sure that is really a better way to go. You will "fly" in plenty of time to visit all systems in range and will be a leg up on the tech tree and have those AF's sooner. If you went scouts first they would have only been sitting on one of those sysyems longer and you would be waiting longer to get those RL and AF running. I am not buying that as a better move, convince me.
"Build one (more later) set of freighters after you max out your home (18 it gets bios). That set will move pop to newly colonized systems."
Yup.

"You need to work on pop farming and how long to boom. Your start is at least 10 turns behind where it should be. If you are 10 turns behind early it only gets worse later."
Not sure I understood this one. I will agree I am not comfortable with the how long to boom as yet. The 10 turns, is the part I am missing. If you mean not getting to another planet sooner, ok. Here I am trapped by the knowledge that the only system I can colonize is crap.
If you are saying I should grap them anyway, then you are probably correct, not sure if it is 10 turns or not, but the point was made.
I guess this is part that I am undecided about, that a run that puts off the fly and start of CS till around the 30's being better or worse or the same as getting the CS sooner. This run get the tech faster and the RL and AF sooner, making it easier to get those CS out the door. I will have to make a test to convince myself one way or the other.
Anyway great to get your thoughts.

	19-01-2003 04:19									#307
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

You are easily 10 turns behind. What you are doing is not booming. You are taking a linear growth technique.
The boom concept is most applicable in a sparsely occupied galaxy 8 huge qualifies.

The whole concept of a boom is that you will trail in tech early but you will make up for in leaps and bounds when you flip to tech.

MOO2 is a 4x game

Explore - You limit yourself with 1 scout. Even if i didn't have a good system (that one you saw was fine). If I didn't have a system to build on I would OP, no question. And continue my CS build.

Expand - Nope you don't do that either. Your expansion is linear. Mine explodes.

Exploit - You didn't expand first so you don't have the planets or population to put your tech to work.

Exterminate - Without planets you don't have as much to build from.

Before you understand this strategy, you need to drop the thought that you do all 4 at the same time. You explore and expand at the same time. You cut expansion to a trickle (filling in new systems) and go to exploit. When you hit critical tech you go to exterminate. The difference in philosophy will kill you. Every point you disagreed with me on has been proven in MP on my side. Every time I learned something new my speed in killing ai improved.

Here are more specifics. You had 3 planets they all should have had RL on them the turn after you teched it. It took you 8 turns (21 to 29). Way too slow.

Building the bio was worthless your home was not packed. You blew 60 pro which should have been pop and maintence bc's. You don't build squat other than research and production buildings until your home is full.

By not flying first you drastically slowed your start. At turn 40 you couldn't even tell me the systems around that second system.

How would you be cranking out 1 CS before you knew if you had a place to send it. Of course you do, you know that because your scouts are out. Whoops you only have 1 so in the time it takes to see all potential systems, you may have popped out the CS instead of an op first.

If the system you saw were a single med poor I would have op'd the system that openned up the most possibilities. I consider 1 pop planets the same as asteroids.

Spies are a waste no if's ands or butts, if you produce 1 prior to being spied on or at least finding another race you are nuts. You spend 100 pro on something that does no immediate good. This is another reason it takes so long for you to kill ai.

Why que up a spy 100 pro to set yourself to build a CS 400 pro? You can't be 1 turn from finishing it.

Try this don't think at all, just follow my instructions and stop at the point where you are able to fly have 2 scouts out and have a BB in que and are teching to CS.

	19-01-2003 06:33									#308
	Inflate your Upload Space

[QUOTE] Originally posted by originalbork
"You are easily 10 turns behind. What you are doing is not booming. You are taking a linear growth technique.
The boom concept is most applicable in a sparsely occupied galaxy 8 huge qualifies."
Ok like I said I will test and see, not disagreeing, only questioning the gap.

"Before you understand this strategy, you need to drop the thought that you do all 4 at the same time. You explore and expand at the same time. You cut expansion to a trickle (filling in new systems) and go to exploit. When you hit critical tech you go to exterminate. The difference in philosophy will kill you. Every point you disagreed with me on has been proven in MP on my side. Every time I learned something new my speed in killing ai improved."
Well I think a careful reading of what I said would not find any real disagreements, except if I was 10 turns off or not and even that I am only saying I am not sure.
Most of the things that are not the same as you say were not intentional, well ok, maybe the scout part, but even that is of no real consequences at this point and could be fixed in one turn. IOW I am not in disagreement with the pop farming or the prebuilds, I just made a presumpsion for the test and it was not the right one.
Oh, I forgot the Bio part, my bad.


"Here are more specifics. You had 3 planets they all should have had RL on them the turn after you teched it. It took you 8 turns (21 to 29). Way too slow."
Ok maybe this is a valid disagreement, not sure, depends. I would normally do a prebuild for these instead of the housing and they would have gotten done sooner, I suspect. I can't say as I do not know the production values off the top off my head. So as I said, I presumed you wanted an all out housing here. Otherwise I would have made the prebuild.
The only point that I have to check here is if the research RL before fly is inferior. If I do the fly first, I am not in a position to build RL by that point anyway.

"Building the bio was worthless your home was not packed. You blew 60 pro which should have been pop and maintence bc's. You don't build squat other than research and production buildings until your home is full."
Cool

"If the system you saw were a single med poor I would have op'd the system that openned up the most possibilities. I consider 1 pop planets the same as asteroids."
Glad to hear it, that is what I was thinking. I do not like to develop dinky planets, unless thee is a strategic reason.

"Spies are a waste no if's ands or butts, if you produce 1 prior to being spied on or at least finding another race you are nuts. You spend 100 pro on something that does no immediate good. This is another reason it takes so long for you to kill ai."
I never said otherwise, I have not build any spies have I? I never intended to build the spy mention, it was just a place holder while I stopped.

"Why que up a spy 100 pro to set yourself to build a CS 400 pro? You can't be 1 turn from finishing it."
Ok, I am lost on this spy business. Maybe I did not make the proper note some place. T39 was nothing, I was stopping to get feed back. The spy was just a place holder. I would have put in an OP or CS at that point. I was waiting to see what you thought on thoe planets. You have said OP and that is what I would have done here.

"Try this don't think at all, just follow my instructions and stop at the point where you are able to fly have 2 scouts out and have a BB in que and are teching to CS."

Ok.

	19-01-2003 09:24									#309
	Put an end to popups!

Well let see if I did it the way you want this time.
T0 all on ind, srt CB, sold barracks
T6 colonized III (poor pop 3), srt CB on HW, Housing on III 0/1/0
T12 colonize II (ultra poor pop 4), 0/1/8 on HW, R-EC
T15 R-freighters
T17 R-std cell
T20 R- CS switch to unarmed scout on HW, III sent 1 pop to HW
T21 srt second scout, sent scout out
T22 srt prebuild
T24 scouts on Adib and Remes, R-labs (0 RP),
HW 0/11/0 switch to CS (11 turns) II/III housing 0/1/0
I saved here (also T20).
Here is trought T50, so if it is not what you intended, I can change.
T35 2 additional pop to HW, CS to Rem, srt CS (9 turns)0/14/0
T37 colonize Rem II set to housing, can't rech other systems
T44 CS to Rem srt prebuild on HW, R-labs 0/1/13 (another pop to HW)
T46 colonize Rem I, srt prebuild on all for RL (poor 34 turns, UP 100)
T49 R- hulls, switch to lab on all, buy on all but HW as it is 1 turn.
T50 prebuild on HW, housing on others. 01/0 , HW is 01/15 full. Used almost all BC.

	19-01-2003 10:14									#310
	Put an end to popups!

Well, if any of who don't win in 150 turns or less are still reading, I found a really neat set of racial picks for late game. By late game I mean you need to research Evolutionary Mutation, so either you're a whole lot slower than Master Bork, or its huge with lots of evenly matched players who can't quite seem to pull off a decisive victory.

Start with Lithovore and anything for your other +10/-10. Make sure you do have some way of producing food (ie, you don't have all radiated planets with no farming, and you have some freighters). When I mutated, I picked Cybernetic. Since Cybernetic and Lith are mutually exclusive, it cleared Lith for me, giving me 8 more points to improve my race in other ways Plus I got all of the benefits of being Cybernetic.

You will need to eat now, but by this point the food requirements are satisfied very easily anyway, especially since you only need 1/2 food. I'm assuming this is a glitch, so you may feel immoral using it on your friends in MP.

	19-01-2003 11:31									#311
	Tired of ads?

As a non creative, I would never pick mutation as I do not need more picks at this point.
I may need Omni if Darloks are still about to see them coming.
I may use Gaia to grow my ultra rich ship building planet(s).
Actually it is just about getting boring at this time and I am likely to be using Stellars to destroy planets, to stop having to come back to them and not have to deal with them at all.
I do like to play to about this juncture, but not much farther.
Anyway, why do you want Cyber? You do not need the defensive boost at this point.
I could see Warllord if you need more CP. Non creative and did not steal even Battle Stations, let alone Star Forts.

	19-01-2003 14:13									#312
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Well let see if I did it the way you want this time. T0 all on ind, srt CB, sold barracks T6 colonized III (poor pop 3), srt CB on HW, Housing on III 0/1/0 T12 colonize II (ultra poor pop 4), 0/1/8 on HW, R-EC T15 R-freighters T17 R-std cell T20 R- CS switch to unarmed scout on HW, III sent 1 pop to HW T21 srt second scout, sent scout out T22 srt prebuild T24 scouts on Adib and Remes, R-labs (0 RP), HW 0/11/0 switch to CS (11 turns) II/III housing 0/1/0 I saved here (also T20). Here is trought T50, so if it is not what you intended, I can change. T35 2 additional pop to HW, CS to Rem, srt CS (9 turns)0/14/0 T37 colonize Rem II set to housing, can't rech other systems T44 CS to Rem srt prebuild on HW, R-labs 0/1/13 (another pop to HW) T46 colonize Rem I, srt prebuild on all for RL (poor 34 turns, UP 100) T49 R- hulls, switch to lab on all, buy on all but HW as it is 1 turn. T50 prebuild on HW, housing on others. 01/0 , HW is 01/15 full. Used almost all BC.

Real close. Remember not to leave the others on housing you didn't prebuild half of your RL nor will you when you buy AF.

I think I may just have to rebuy the cd with all the delays to MOO3. This is killing me.

	19-01-2003 22:57									#313
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Originally posted by originalbork
"Real close. Remember not to leave the others on housing you didn't prebuild half of your RL nor will you when you buy AF."
Ok, I am trying to follow this, but I am not sure about the point in time you are referring to here.
Do you mean move the housing to prebuilds to do the AF? If so, I got that, but of course I am not sure how much lead time is required at this point.
That is what happened with the RL. I did not know how much time was needed until the research was started and then it was a bit too late.

"I think I may just have to rebuy the cd with all the delays to MOO3. This is killing me."
I hear that, if you were close by I could give you one.

Since you do not have the CD, I am running this for you so, what is the next move here?
T50 - I would be inclined to build an OP to send to the gaser at Adib to try to extend my range.
I would guess HW is doing close to 60 RP after the RL and so could learn Hulls in 2-4 turns, depending on the roll. Say 4 to be safe and AF in 6, so 10 turns. I guess I would have to go straight to the prebuilds for AF
After that try to get in the Bio research, but tech for a BB is going to be needed real soon.

	19-01-2003 23:14									#314
	Got spare money?

Now that I have recreated the method you advocate, I can evaluate the first run to see if it was 10 or more turn behind.
Maybe I missed it, but I think the only way to say it is behind is if the only criteria is when you get the CS out.
If I promlogate the first run out to T50, the first run is ahead.
It will start CS on T39 and need 6 turns. It already has AF on all three planets and Bio on HW (I would agree that they should not be built on the other two at this point), so will have 18 pop around the mid or early 40's.
It already has learned several techs and is on to the BB techs.
Now I do see that this first run could be a problem if you do not start out in a corner.
So I quess what I am saying is as a whole it is better to use the second run as it works better under all the starting locations. But for this start, it hardly makes a difference.
My real concern is what will happen once you make contact and have a bunch of planets with no defenses?
Say around T110 you could be at war with Darloks who will show up with 8 ships and I have maybe 2 BB. Yes mine are better, but will get overwhelmed, if they choose to press an attack.
They will be able to replace any loses with ease as they will have about 10 systems and have stolen tech to fill holes. It could get ugly.

	20-01-2003 00:19									#315
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

VXMA,

I am ordering the CD today. Your should have changed production from a CS to an OP after you realized that the CS did not open any new systems to you.

Don't worry about the darloks. All you need is a couple appropriately outfitted BB's.

BP RH AE and then mirv nukes make sure you have chaff so that your expensive missiles don't get hit. The only other ship you will need is a frig with BP and aug eng.

	20-01-2003 00:43									#316
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by originalbork VXMA, I am ordering the CD today. Your should have changed production from a CS to an OP after you realized that the CS did not open any new systems to you. Don't worry about the darloks. All you need is a couple appropriately outfitted BB's. BP RH AE and then mirv nukes make sure you have chaff so that your expensive missiles don't get hit. The only other ship you will need is a frig with BP and aug eng.

I guess I could do an F9 and see if an OP will allow me to reach anything from Adib or not. If so, then back up prior to t50 and switch the second CS to OP, otherwise, just proceed to do it now.
If none in reach here, I would think do the Cells after AF.
So you would take the AE over the drive here.
You prefer a missile BB over a beamer, what is the chaff you would use, 4 nukes with HV and FST? The others with ECM, if you have it at that time and MV HV FST?
One slot for the chaff and one for all the ohers or multiple for the business ones?
I am guessing we do not have fast racks at this time.

	20-01-2003 12:48									#317
	Got spare money?

Hi, everybody .... Vmxa, I played the game that you suggested.

I did not use the other planets in the starting system. Actually I never built other colony from my starting race (I am posting some saves). I am sure that I could have done it better but it was late in the night and I was almost half asleep :-). I won by conquest at turn 222. If I played better then I could have done it by say, t200.

A brief log:
t0 - sold my starbase... yeah, a bit risky...
t12 built research labs
t13 hired gizmo
t19 hired yota
t22 built AF
t25 built hydroponics
t36 built soil
t40 built cloning
t60 built supercomputer
t67 holo simulator
t72 spaceport
t78 robo miners
t81 biospheres
t94 researched iridium, and contacted the klackons, at last :-) rebuilt my starbase
t101 hired Khunagg
t108 got Zortrium, nano, microlite, Now my homeworld is producing 200 :-)
t118 hired chug - for the terraforming and my first missile boat is ready
t144 the klackon is dead .... killed it only by the missile boat ...
Followed by the human, mrrshan, silicoid.
Then sakkra, trilarian and the darlok simultaneously (the sakkras surendered to trilar in the process)

Actually the weapon that I used till the end was mass driver and lots of force field technology - look at the last save - I am with Class V shield. My missile boat was killed by some plasma fighters because I wanted to fire the second volley of missiles in one battle - a bit stupid for that situation - that was the only ship that I lost ... May be I should have refitted it but as I say I didn't played my best in that game.

The other tech that I researched a lot were the better drives ...

Anyway it was VERY easy to beat, even with one of my eyes already sleeping :-)

Attachment: vmxa_sav.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

Last edited by bakalov on 20-01-2003 at 14:10

	20-01-2003 12:55									#318
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I saw your discussion here - is it an effort to play the same situation with another race? or just another game?

	20-01-2003 13:39									#319
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Bakalov, like you say it is late, so I will look at it tomorrow, thanks.
My goal in these two games was to see if it could be shown that they were winable with those races. If so, then, I felt they were poor enough starts to make the case that those races played as thier advocates suggest are going to always win in SP.

	20-01-2003 13:41									#320
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by bakalov I saw your discussion here - is it an effort to play the same situation with another race? or just another game?

I guess I am sleepy as I thought I already answer you, but I do not see the post?
ANyway, yes it is the same game with the race changed to the one Originalbork proposed.

	21-01-2003 00:20									#321
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Bakalov I took a peek at the game finally. The log was not detailed enough for me to be sure I did the same things in the same time frame and order that you did for a clear comparision.
I can say I had some trouble meeting all the timelines for the run up to robo's. One problem was I did not get Gizmo, so I had to slam him in with the editor and the next leader as well. I deducted most of the cash at that point to simulate the purchase, but I did not know the correct price.
I also had Khunagg show up much earlier and hired him, so I am not sure what that impact would be.
In short it was not real far apart.
Anyway I was wonder why you would hire Gizmo at this point? You have no ships and will not have for some time, so you do not get any of the bonus he provides.
Why did you not assign the colony leader, just lazy or was there some tactical reason?

	21-01-2003 13:14									#322
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I hired Gizmo (Researcher, Engineer) for the +5 RP that he gives (+10 later), and Yota (Famous*, Instructor) for the Famous* ability. These are the abilities of the leaders that appeared for me.

Yota cannot benefit the colony directly if there are no ships at it .... But when he gained the second level this saved me 180 from the price of each future leader. I was getting the later leaders at almost no cost. In spite of all this I think that I assigned him when I hired him ....
And later I assigned Khunagg for the additional food and production.

Once you complained about the leaders giving nothing when you used saved games sent by me. May be there is a kind of incompatibility here? Or the editor did not make everything correctly? Anyway Gismo indeed gives me 5 (or 10 later) RP. He s like a free additional scientist :-) That's why I hired him.

	21-01-2003 13:44									#323
	Full PM-box? Change here!

BTW, vmxa, do you realize that because of the time difference we can not talk much? One or two posts a day .... If you have ICQ you can find me there at #20457526. I am always online when I am in front of my PC. It is possible for you to meet me there late at night or early in the morning (according to your time).

Or if there is anyone else interested in contacting me, I will be glad to hear from him ....

	21-01-2003 22:26									#324
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I do not have ICQ, never used it. I tend to not be connect to the net most of the time. I connect and visit a few times a day, but drop my connection as soon as I am done. I use DSL, so it is not much of a delay.
If you look at your RP and then hire Gizmo, it will not change, if you have no ships. Once you build even a scout and assign him, you see the boost. That is what I have seen and that is what happened in this game. I got the increase as soon as I made a ship and assigned him.

	21-01-2003 22:30									#325
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This could be a bug using the editor, but I am fairly sure I have seen this with out it. I will have to try to recreate without the editor. That should be easy as Gizmo shows up all the time.
I understand Yota or any famous leader as they save money and attrack others.

	21-01-2003 23:38									#326
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well I reloaded te save and make 6 passes from the start and never got sparky to show, so it will have to wait. I am leaning towards it being a bug. I saw megawealth leaders (ship) that had their bonus applied unpon hiring.
Funny thing occurred, I researched Robo and went to the colony and it was not there to be build?

	22-01-2003 13:43									#327
	Support Apolyton

Well it took nine passes, but I finally got Gizmo to show up and the leader bonus was added without a ship.
So I guess it was a bug, or possibly another instance of losing my mind.

	23-01-2003 01:56									#328
	Inflate your Upload Space

I've been messing around with custom races, and I have found a couple of winners. Creative/ Unification/ Subterranian is the easiest I've come across, but playing Creative races is a little too easy.
My newer experiments have been with Tolerant, sonce the popultation ond production bonuses are really quite nice. The two combinations I've been working with are:
Tolerant, Unification, +1 Research,
-20 Ship Attack & Defence, -10 Ground Combat, -3 Spying
Also:
Tolerant, Democracy, +1 Producion,
Same disadvantages as before, with Poor Homeworld

I'm going for a balanced race, but I question the worth of Democracy over Unification. The research boost is nice, along with the quickness you assimilate captured populations. Any advice?

-OshoX

	23-01-2003 03:11									#329
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Oshox,

Always think multipliers. Demo +1 pro has 4 production on an ave planet. Uni +1 has 6..
Uni +1 Pro Tolerant is 6 with no pollution. This is a favorite of mine when combined with rep -20 sd and -20 gc. It is one of the best ave tech starting races.

For a Demo think Demo Lith Arty will give you an early research boom noone can match. Bakalov shows how to use this earlier in the thread.

IMO production races are much better in larger games. Depending on the starting positions and lower number of opponents a research race can be effective.

Uni goes with food and production
Demo goes with research and money.

Money and food are virtually worthless bonuses so stick with Uni-Pro and Demo-Res

Tolerant is a production bonus, Aqua is a food and size bonus (only use in org galaxy, instead of sub) and Lith neutralizes the Demo food problem.

When it comes to assimilation don't worry about uni being slow. Remember they have a production and food bonus. When you assimilate pop the 2 things you do are farm and build infrastructure. Buy the alien pop center right away. It lower's revold and assimilates them much faster.

Hope that helps.

	23-01-2003 07:02									#330
	Refinement Got spare money?

Alright. I don't like Lith, it is too expensive for the benefits it gives. Frees up your population and removes pressure on your friegter fleet... Cool, but I like Tolerant beter.
I guess what your saying is Tol/Uni is the better chance, but what to add to it? You said +1 prod, but that would make it just a little one-sided, IMO. I was thinking of something to raise research, either +1 Res or Artifacts Homeworld. Both cost the same, but which is better? Art Home would be better in the beginning (When you do your most research, neh?) but +1 res would be better overall.
Or maybe something else entirely. I could give myself a Poor Homeworld and get Cybernetic, which would free up my farmers to do research, as well as other benefits. Or maybe Warlord. If I already have about double production from the Uni/Tol combo, what would be a good thing to COMPLIMENT it, as balance is essential in running an empire. I think research would be the best idea, as I would be constantly feeding new machines into my factories. But I am often wrong...
-OshoX