19-12-2002 20:45									#241
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Interesting tactic bakalov, but if you sell your starbase you will lose a lot of money becasuse of the fleet size.
I can destroy an enemy starbase with a fully modded BB, but you still need the production for some transports. And since you don't have Unification...
I'll try your tactic nevertheless.

	19-12-2002 21:18									#242
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Sorry, but it still sucks. I recommend Sub+lith+artis instead. you'll have a lot more pop.
As far as timing goes, Uni+tol+1 prod is still unbeatable.

	19-12-2002 22:48									#243
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DemoLith can be a very srong race.

	19-12-2002 22:50									#244
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You can do a lot better with Unitol or Sublith!

	20-12-2002 13:39									#245
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Hey, who is talking about BBs? I am talking about destroying the starbase with a single destroyer (cost ~110, no battle pods)! See the design in the attached saved game! Or at most 2 - the starting 5 command points are more than enough.

Here are some more details abot this tactic:

1. Don't pick negative ship defence !
2. negative ship attack may be ok
probably (-ship attack; -gc; repulsive) is best
3. It was much too easy to beat the enemies with taking the Optronic computer instead of research labs (see the attached saves, too bad I did not made an earlier save. My negatives there are not ok, though.
Against human I would the ones mentioned above).
If you are playing against a human then you probably can take research labs though because most human players take the negative ship defense (this statement should be tested, I am not very certain).
4. This tactics is easier for use against humans in MP than against AI who tends to have +ship att/def bonuses at impossible (in opposing of humans who tend to have negative ones).
5. If the human opponent sells his starbase for faster development, you won't have to destroy it and can beat him even with frigates :-)
6. Research the Deuterium after you have one destroyer and an outpost ship for best surprise against a human in medium gal.

At the attached save game I destroyed the klakon's starbase on turn 30 only with the first destroyer! The Idea was to blokade the homeworld with it until the second comes, but I discovered that I can beat him with only one. This way I could have conquered him on turn 33-34 (instead of 37) by building the 2 transports after the first destroyer ...
2 destroyers are better though because they could handle the starbase + a ship.

Against a human I could bombard his farms while waiting for a second destroyer to come (2 more turns).

Another good aspect of this tactics:
You can capture the research labs or automated factories tech in this way, allowing you to go for the heavy armor :-)

Anyway if I play this tactics and you are my neighbour with an uni-aqua or uni-tol in prewarp game, than the chances are much against you :-) You may disagree but ... fear these destroyers :-)

Attachment: saves.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	20-12-2002 14:09									#246
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(Don't take this message personally, but its answer to the statement that my race sucks ;-)

Sorry, Zealot, but this race is designed to beat one as you before he can even think about it :P Before you look around you will be blockaded. Before you look around twice you will be dead :-)

Just look at the saves from the previous post - the klackon there was much like your fav races. And don't worry about these poor communists (we here think about the unification as a communist society :P). The democracy assimilates fast :-) Long live the freedom :-)

And now let's a bit more serious ... I am not 100% certain that you cant do anything to stop me, but if you try to and I am on the other side of the gal playing another communist then I will have advantage over you because I'd have been settled better. And if you don't do anything then I can be near you with a democratic/lithovore/artifacts and really kill you ....
That is the paranoya :-)

	20-12-2002 22:57									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot You can do a lot better with Unitol or Sublith!

I did not say it was the best race only that when I played it a few times it was very strong. A number of races are quite strong for SP games. In an MP game, it is more about match ups, what are your oppents doing. As long as you are not weaker than they are you are good to go.

	20-12-2002 23:48									#248
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quote: [SIZE=1] And now let's a bit more serious ... I am not 100% certain that you cant do anything to stop me, but if you try to and I am on the other side of the gal playing another communist then I will have advantage over you because I'd have been settled better. And if you don't do anything then I can be near you with a democratic/lithovore/artifacts and really kill you .... That is the paranoya :-)

Bakalov that is a good tactic. However it requires a couple things. One is that you are a WH away from the UNI-TOL. 2nd he is not versed in annoying tactics. Basically he can outbuild the hell out of you. You do 24 production before pollution and he does 48 without. So once he sees you he goes full build mode and destroyers come quickly. You need to build a DD, OP and TP just to have a shot at him. If however he takes down your op and you didn't take a planet, you have a long ride home and no starbase to protect you.

It is risky but could be a good surprise tactic in a 1 on 1 game. I'd give it about a 1 in 5 of taking a good player down. It would cost you the game 4 out of 5 times though.

	21-12-2002 01:06									#249
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I will research deuterium just at the moment I am building my second destroyer ... so he will have at most 3-4 turns to prepare after seeing me or even less if I have navigator; Besides what tech he will have at turn 30? eventually nuclear missiles with no mods ..... I can shoot down at least 10 missiles per turn if he fires them from afar. If he tries to get close then he will be dead before firing. One of his ships will be dead before firing anyway. Eventually he can end up with his HW blockaded and he will not be able to build faster than me - he'll need more frarmers and will have reduced production; And besides I can attack only the defender ships at the farm colonies without involving the star base.

And democracy will have less production but more money. Not great factor but it will help a little for the first few ships, and these will be the ones that will solve the conflict. If I think a little more I'm sure that I can think out about other advantages that I have.

I havent tried this in MP - I thought out this tactics just to peck at the Zealot who is accusing me for not playing on Kali ...... As I said I haven't such opportunity in spite of my wish.

And finaly I'll say that anyone even you, originalbork, with your experience can not be judge before trying it. I would say that my chances are better.

	21-12-2002 01:26									#250
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I have always said that there is no best race and continue to support that opinion :-) But some of you tried to declare that the uni-aqua and uni-tol are the best ones. I completely disagree .... They are good races, but there is not a best one in spite of what can anyone think. The game is ballanced well enough if we exclude the flaws.

	21-12-2002 01:34									#251
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And I can't understand why do you love the communists so much? Don't you feel a little inconveniently? :P

	21-12-2002 03:52									#252
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Not wanting to be in the middle of your fun, but I do not care about commie or any other aspect if the traits will win for me, it is just a game, so I do not project my abhorence to communism or even socialism in to it.

	25-12-2002 05:04									#253
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quote: Originally posted by bakalov And finaly I'll say that anyone even you, originalbork, with your experience can not be judge before trying it. I would say that my chances are better.

Because my goal is to always win a game I wouldn't intentionally take a strategy that might not get me home just by the layout of the stars.

For that to work you need a WH to my home. If I am facing that race I only need to blow up your op while protecting my home. I've faced similar strategies in the past and with a little learning I became very good at stifling the early rush.

What is interesting to me is that you said you had no pods on your ships what can you put in them?

Demo Lith is a good pre-warp ave or min rich race. I believe it is better than dic-sub-lith because of the lack of need for a marine barrack. If you go Large - Rich over arti I think it is far more balanced however.

If you go ave tech than I think uni-tol has it hands down. An organic galaxy really favors the uni-tol and uni aqua. The biggest advantage the uni tol has is the bypass of poll proc and/or atmos renew. If it gets to Zort they are nasty because they can easily have pulson missiles as chaff with mirv mercs behind and that doesn't go down easy.

	02-01-2003 13:19									#254
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There is example for ship designs in the saved game that I attached to one of the previous posts. One of these ships may be sufficient to handle a starbase if the player has not +Ship Attack bonuses and you attack it early enough.

Of course there are many other possibilities. You can go for research labs, AF & battle pods and space academy, but this will slow your attack by about 7 turns.

Proximity to the home world is not mandatory as you can reach quite far with an outpost and deuterium ... You have to miss the tritanium armor, but the strategy supposes that your ships will not be hit at all, so the armor does not matter.

And bork, for the races, once you spoke about the cumulative bonuses. The race I am speaking of have these in research:

lithovore x2 (from the beginning, expires with time)
democracy x 1.5
artifacts x 1.67

for a total of x5 (60RP instead of 12RP w/o bonuses)
I read somewhere for killing the Guardian at turn 97 in prewarp with this race. Not tried it myself. Can you beat this?

Again I am talking about prewarp(!) strategy, not average. It is important.

	04-01-2003 21:52									#255
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Demo-Lith is always better than SUB-LITH-DIC. I don't even have the CD anymore. I had wasted so many hours playing I had to can it. I haven't played anything since and am ready to start wasting it on MOO3.

That strategy is good in a 1 on 1 game of prewarp if you have the range to get there, you may need more than 1 op which would cost that race dearly. I definitely like the bypassing of some techs for the early attack. If you wait for pods and space academy it will falter. Other races will catch your substantial early advantage. It is a breaking point earlier than I have seen.

I have played so many multi's and my ranking on Kali was never lower than 3 that I have a distaste for all or nothing strategies. It is just a personal preference for me to keep my rank high.

	04-01-2003 22:00									#256
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I tried a Tolerant-Lithovore Race but it doesnt go as well in MP as Unifcation producepower-wise

	06-01-2003 14:42									#257
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ok :-) I am waiting for MOO3 too but from what I have seen it will be quite different and very complex game. But I still will be playing the old games though - like MoM, MOO2, 1830 Railroads ....

	06-01-2003 22:16									#258
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I often go with

Unification
Telepathy
Cybernetic
Prod +1
( Standard start with a colony ship and 2 scouts )
( Small universe because I just don't have time for huge games )

Then I develope about 2 size 3 vessel with heavy armor. If I manage to strike early enough ( and if the other race hasn't developed missile bases ) then the regenerative benefits of cybernetic will allow me to take enemy homeworlds without losing a ship. Telepathy then allow me to take over the world without a struggle. Unification ensures that food and industrial production is actually better then when I found it.

I've won games without ever building a single colony ship. Don't bother with Tolerant or Lithovore. Just conquer a race that already is.

	06-01-2003 23:15									#259
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That race will run into trouble more often than not at impossible level. Telepathy is not useful IF you can not defeat their defenses. You will need to get to the nearest AI quickly and move very aggressively.
If your nearest race gets up a missile base before you get to them, you are cooked.
I just never found cyber to be worth the points. Early the boost is so small as to not have an impact and later, I just do not care about the lost of a ship or two.

	07-01-2003 00:27									#260
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If the enemy does develope missile bases then it just gets a little more interesting. Take out their surrounding colonies, blockade their home system. and build more cruisers. Early in the game even enemy battleships will rarely have the fire power to destroy a heavy armor cruiser with self-repair capabilities. Once you have three or four cruisers you should have enough defensive firepower to even ignore enemy missile bases. ( just keep in tight formation as you approach the planet ) Also don't forget to capture ( not destroy ) the orbitting star base.

The real danger is that you'll run into a race whose specials don't mesh well with yours. Armor heavy cruisers don't have that much room left for firepower so other cybernetic races vessels will be immune to your attacks as well. The Psilons often develop tech too quickly making early planetary assaults unwise. Other telepathic races are also tough to absorb.

Also there is the danger that you'll start completely isolated from the other races. The TEL-UNI-CYB-PROD+1 race picks work best if you can quickly find and locate a vulnerable race near the beginning. But there is a chance that any game may prove unwinable. If you start with a more peaceful race you can easily be overwhelmed by starting near an erratic expansionistic Sakkra.

	07-01-2003 09:04									#261
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By this time you are so far behind someone that you will soon be dead. If you do not get a planet cpatured quickly this race is not long for the game.
I say again Cyber is one of the poorest picks in the game.

	07-01-2003 23:05									#262
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I've played that selection multiple times and I've got a near 90% success rate on small galaxy ( for shorter more managable games ) / impossible.

The key is to go to war as soon as possible. Even if the enemy does manage to develope good defenses around their home worlds, you can still take over their colonies. If you blockade their homeworld and smash their fleets then you'll end up out-researching them anyway. They'll be to busy vainly trying to rebuild their fleet.

The key is that starting with auto-repairing ships ( with heavy armor ) is such a powerful advantage early on that you'll win space battles even when horribly outclassed. Even better the AI almost never retreats until it has suffered significant losses.

	08-01-2003 03:38									#263
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quote: Originally posted by booklord I've played that selection multiple times and I've got a near 90% success rate on small galaxy ( for shorter more managable games ) / impossible. The key is to go to war as soon as possible. Even if the enemy does manage to develope good defenses around their home worlds, you can still take over their colonies. If you blockade their homeworld and smash their fleets then you'll end up out-researching them anyway. They'll be to busy vainly trying to rebuild their fleet. The key is that starting with auto-repairing ships ( with heavy armor ) is such a powerful advantage early on that you'll win space battles even when horribly outclassed. Even better the AI almost never retreats until it has suffered significant losses.

I am fully aware of the keys and how to play that race (or any race really). My point is while you are fooling around with this race and maybe beating eventually, some other race is coming over the top of you more than 10% of time on Prewarp, 8 race map of what ever size you pick. That race is not going to out produce a number of races, nor out research them. Where are you going to get Heavey Armor anyway? Did you forego AF? If so you will surely be falling behind, if you fail to grap a planet very quickly. If you waited for HA you are dead.
You must capture the nearest race ASAP or you can not win. Frankly I am very dubious of the 90% claim for that race in a legit game (no editor, no codes).

	08-01-2003 03:48									#264
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I would say that if you surveyed you would not find anyone listing a race in the top 10 that had Cyber as a trait. There is a reason for this, it sucks.
The three worst picks in the game are Uncreative, Fuedal and Cyber.
One of the most common things to see in a game early is a blockade. If you get blockade as a Cyber you will produce nothing. You will have problems with poor planet or ultra poor and need all the production boosts.
That trait does nothing for production or research or gowth. Dump it and get +1 prod, sci, or LHW/RHW or AHW anything.
If a strong race such as a UniTol or UniSubAQua with +prod or somethng is close by, you got a big problem.
A 10% boost to your armor of 100 is not going to save the day that often. You could get Sparky to do the same thing and use those picks for something else.

	08-01-2003 05:06									#265
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The only reasonable cyber race is Uni-Cyber-Tol. The tolerant gives you some decent sized planets and stops the pollution from sucking up the production your planet doesn't.

The biggest problem with a cybernetic race is pop farming. You pop farm with 1 pop on a bad/small planet. As such it eats an extra 1/2 food and 1/2 production per turn which slows you down considerably.

	08-01-2003 05:54									#266
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That's why my cybernetic-telepathic-unification race has +1 prod.
To make for the production loss.

You're right though. This is NOT a race for people that start with pre-warp. ( I always play with maximum number of races ) The other races will out research you but good. I also do have to pick Heavy Armor over Automated Factories. Necessary evil.

I think I like this race because it really forces you to go on the offensive almost immediately. I'll probably be an Ithkul fan on Moo3.....

	08-01-2003 13:49									#267
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Why do you think that the Ithkul will be offensive race in MOO3? I think that they will be a scientific one :-)

Anyway the race you spoke of may be is not very good. If it does not guarantee 100% success in SP, then what will remains for MP?
In MP such race will need an early attack ... This means no later than turn 50 on prewarp. Try to see if you can launch an attack with fully modded laser battleship till this time. If you can, then may be you have a chance :-)

By the way the race I have found that guarantees 100% success for single player is a creative one. It is not good for MP, but for single it is unbeatable. The reason for that is because the breakthrough for the creative races comes late (around turn 90 on prewarp).
In MP the other players wont let you live such long ... but the AI is not that agressive and it will not attack you till then for sure, or if it does its attack wont be strong and you will be able to easily defeat it. Once you get the proper tech the enemy ships will be paper dolls for yours ....

	08-01-2003 19:26									#268
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There is always a chance on impossible that you will lose. Imagine if the game starts you in a corner. You quickly discover you have two possible stars outside your home colony. Unfortunately one is guarded by a space crystal and the other is the darlok ( who the game has randomly selected to be both tolerant and repulsive ) homeworld.

Well if your a creative player, you're screwed. The darloks will most likely chew you up and spit you out. If you don't build up your military ships quickly the darloks will declare war on you early on. If you do then you'll be spending most of your efforts on production and not science which will cripple your starting efforts.

For a Cyber-Tel-Uni-Prod+1 race that starting spot is an early boon. Go out and conquer. For this race the worst scenario is that you'll start isolated and the nearest race is another cybernetic race. You'll get out-produced and out-researched.

I should also add that part of my early strategy with this race is to build heavy armor cruisers(size 3) not battleships (size 4). Battleships take too long.

	09-01-2003 02:20									#269
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If you are playing that small of a galaxy any good lith race will dismantle a cyber.


Uni-Lith-+1 pro- Large will kick that races ass.
Production 36 - pollution or 24 research

Or a demo lith arti
Production 24 - pollution or 60 reasearch.

Your race is 23 production - pollution or 18 research.

No contest the lith will build em bigger and better. Your race will find itself in a boatload of trouble when facing any lith.

	09-01-2003 04:11									#270
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bakalov I would like to see a Creative race that wins 100%. I actually think Creative is a harder pick than many to win with. 8 picks is a lot to give up and it will be a while before you can recoup that loss. You may not have that time. I also think that Advanced Tech starts are worse for the creative race than PreWarp. They pop up with a ton of structures that they can not afford to build and the producing races get some that they can use to get after them with.