19-11-2002 12:22									#211
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There are quite a few musts to playing MP well. There are even more minor if's which determine far more games than starting position. Even equal players may go through a series of move, counter move which outweigh starting position many times. The tech choices become crucial and the point that you choose to push your advantage is crucial.

That being said a lop-sided start is too much to overcome which probably explains why Kali played primarily ave tech. Advanced was a totally different beast and pre warp would limit the real challengers by your start.

	19-11-2002 13:03									#212
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ok, I agree but that was because less or more the players used start-point dependent races ...

In some of your posts you mentioned that you use a kind of strategy for filling up the other systems (and you mentioned that it is a long story) but if you don't mind can you post the main ideas about it?

And another question - do u get tachion communications for more command points (+1 per starbase) - and how big your fleet usually is along the time scale?

	19-11-2002 13:15									#213
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quote: Originally posted by originalbork Last try at logical thinking, then I give up on helping you.

I am not sure what the tyraid is about, but in any event, I did not need any help and so far you have not said anything I did not know. You did make three statements, two of which you failed to prove. The other I have no way I knowing about and it is not relevant anyway. Those two statement were 1- I will have 3 colony ships out by turn 45-50. 2- I will win by t110-150.
everything else you said was nothing different than I have posted on the board in the past and have agreed with by and large. That is what is so strange to me, you keep coming back to harp on something, when the only things I have disagreed with are those two points and your percpetion that no one could figure out how to play MP. That last can't be true as every great MP player that ever played, once was a non MP player. That means it can be figured out. That was my only point about MP, it is not better only different. I seriously doubt it takes anyone special to do it. So anyway I am sorry if I was to dull witted to get it, after all I only have an IQ of 142, and can not be expected to comprehend everything.

	21-11-2002 22:31									#214
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I tried Bork's race

Imp, Prewarp
Uni, Aqua, +2 prod, etc...

And had 2 colonies by t48, by 100 had 1/4 the galaxy (was building more than conquering) but I see how this race can outstrip all the others. I even had a higher tech rating than the psilons (who I was stealing tech from right and left.)

This is a great race!

	21-11-2002 23:09									#215
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Yes that was never in doubt. You can get a second colony by around turn 50 even with 4 planets to colonize in your system. Well assuming that you have a planet in range and not protected at that time. At least you could get the CS out by then.

	21-11-2002 23:21									#216
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Actually, 2 MORE colonies, besides my home system, and my home system was filled with colony bases as well, so I actually had 5 total colonies, 3 systems.

	22-11-2002 12:27									#217
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 That is what is so strange to me, you keep coming back to harp on something, when the only things I have disagreed with are those two points and your percpetion that no one could figure out how to play MP. That last can't be true as every great MP player that ever played, once was a non MP player. That means it can be figured out. That was my only point about MP, it is not better only different. I seriously doubt it takes anyone special to do it. So anyway I am sorry if I was to dull witted to get it, after all I only have an IQ of 142, and can not be expected to comprehend everything.

You missed the point a good SP won't be a good MP until they have significant experience playing multi and may not even then. On the other hand someone who plays multi only can switch back to SP and beat the computer at breakneck speed without changing ship design or basic strategy.

I think my point of build speed is being backed up by piratebrun and I have no idea of his skill level.

	22-11-2002 13:07									#218
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I do not understand why you say I missed your point. I have repeated it essentially. The point of contention as I see it is your insitance that all SP players are some how going to have a lengthy adjustment period. I have shown you that all the stuff you point out about MP games is well known. Selling star bases for tele and marine barracks for uni and on down the line are not unheard of concepts. Just because one does not play MP style for entertainment, does not mean they are not familar with those strategies. Just because I drove 70 in my mustang convertable does not meant it will not go faster. MP player do not have a monopoly on logic.
Pirateburn matched what I had posted, 5 planets around turn 50 and I concurred with it. Like I said it is not a big secret and was well documented many years ago. Frankly I do not know what we are quibbling about. No matter how many times I compliment you, you insist upon under estimating others. That does not seem like a trait that would bode well at most endevers.

	22-11-2002 21:06									#219
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You missed it again. Here it is again

Competition is better, more flexible and more adabtable therefore the players involved are forced to learn more about the game and manage their empires with near perfect precision if they want to win. Therefore they become better. Not that they are inherantly (sp) better. Just they are forced to become that way.

I never mentioned entertainment. I said skill.

	22-11-2002 23:13									#220
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My race stats for Moo2 are almost always:

Bad:
-5 Low G
-2 Ground Combat -10%
-3 Spying -10%

Good:
+6 Subterranean
+6 Telepathic
+6 Unification

Being telepathic means you can be absolute crap as foot soldiers, so the low g and poor ground combat faults are almost negligible.
Furthermore, the 20 turns to assimilate populations (by being unified) and poor spying ability are also countered by being telepathic.
That way, you get the production and food bonuses of being unified (which apply to assimilated races on top of their natural abilities!) for free.

Go forth and conquer!

	23-11-2002 01:54									#221
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quote: Originally posted by gramians My race stats for Moo2 are almost always: Bad: -5 Low G -2 Ground Combat -10% -3 Spying -10% Good: +6 Subterranean +6 Telepathic +6 Unification Being telepathic means you can be absolute crap as foot soldiers, so the low g and poor ground combat faults are almost negligible. Furthermore, the 20 turns to assimilate populations (by being unified) and poor spying ability are also countered by being telepathic. That way, you get the production and food bonuses of being unified (which apply to assimilated races on top of their natural abilities!) for free. Go forth and conquer!

Actully the low-g hurts bad on production on High-G and Normal G planets. You are very correct about ground combat.

Once you start assimilating pop the game is basically over in SP. Throw the Alien Rehab Center and it is not so bad.

The key to the Uni-Aqua production race is that the +2 prod and rich hw are multiplied by the uni pick so that. +2 prod is actually +3. And the rich 5 prod hw is now 7.5. By combining aqua with uni my food production (4.5 at home) and some planet sizes go up. The key to race selection is multipliers. DEMO with Research or Money. UNI with food or production.

By having ungodly production you build faster, make pop faster, and once you have more buildings and pop you have more ships and research.

Just consider how slow uni-sub starts compared to the uni aqua.

UNI-SUB-TELE
Turn 1 needs 3 farmers and 5 workers produce 22.5 production - polution (excuse me I don't have my disk anymore so I don't know this answer) ( or 15 research).

UNI-AQUA-+2 pro- large rich hw
Turn 1 needs 2 farmers and 6 workers produce 63 production - polluction (or 18 research). So the first colony base will go down in 1/2 - 1/3 the time (I think 5 turns on the first 4 on the second). That colony base immediately starts pop farming thus filling the HW sooner.

By the time these 2 meet the aqua will have more colonies, tech and ships and a minimum of a +15 def spy bonus. What happens after I take population is a minor concern? The issue is taking population.

The one change for Prewarp that can help the production race is to drop 1 prod and go ARTI home to break out a bit sooner.

	27-11-2002 02:14									#222
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quote: Originally posted by originalbork Actully the low-g hurts bad on production on High-G and Normal G planets... (--1--) Once you start assimilating pop the game is basically over in SP. Throw the Alien Rehab Center and it is not so bad. (--2--) The key to the Uni-Aqua production race is that the +2 prod and rich hw are multiplied by the uni pick so that. +2 prod is actually +3. And the rich 5 prod hw is now 7.5. ... By having ungodly production you build faster, make pop faster, and once you have more buildings and pop you have more ships and research...Just consider how slow uni-sub starts compared to the uni aqua. (--3--) The one change for Prewarp that can help the production race is to drop 1 prod and go ARTI home to break out a bit sooner. (--4--)

1) Yes, Low-G hurts. But you start on a low g planet, so there is no INITIAL drawback, and then you can get a Planetary Gravity generator, which takes care of the rest.
2) and 3) - All I need is one cruiser and I can instantly assimilate populations. no need to buy troop transports. no initial "we're unhappy and thus it takes 3 of us to make one food unit" phase. no revolutions.

This leads to a population boom (and thus production) far greater than what you could do with fishes. Furthermore your fish guys are unified, it takes 20 turns to assimilate just one alien. Sure, the ACR makes it faster, but that will take you forever. I just mind control them, and all the production bonuses the PC or Hume has spent on their race become mine.

As far as fishes go - yes, your plan does make production faster. But as I am trying to say, that is only relevant until the first telepathic cruiser is made. You need to invest a lot more - for troops, for food (since conquered races arent happy enough to feed themselves) etc. to capture and hold a planet.

4) Also, since waterworlds are so rare it is generally a bad idea to be a fish since their benefits are almost nil off of their homeworld. not really worth 5 pts to me. They would kick serious in pre-warp, where my telepaths sit on their duff with no one around to mind control - but then again, if you start as advanced, you had better defend your perimeter. I'm coming. And I'm ca-ray-zee.

	27-11-2002 07:06									#223
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The benefits of an aquatic race are almost nil outside of their home? Have you READ aquatic?

You treat all oceans and terrans as Gaia - high pop gain, high food - meaning that you need less workers on food, meaning more production. Aqua + uni is obscene on food production.

You treat all tundra and swamp as terrans. Again, higher pop gain, higher food.

The only ones you don't treat better are arids and deserts. Rats.

Between those four terrain types, you get quite an advantage in my mind. Aquatic is no longer an option for me, and I realize that this is a crutch of sorts. Fact is that it's just ludicrous early on, and makes worlds so much better. Add in terraforming, and it gets obscene - being able to have nothing but gaian worlds is pretty nice.

Being aqua, unified, telepathic can be pretty fun.

	27-11-2002 07:23									#224
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quote: Originally posted by gramians As far as fishes go - yes, your plan does make production faster. But as I am trying to say, that is only relevant until the first telepathic cruiser is made. You need to invest a lot more - for troops, for food (since conquered races arent happy enough to feed themselves) etc. to capture and hold a planet. 4) Also, since waterworlds are so rare it is generally a bad idea to be a fish since their benefits are almost nil off of their homeworld. not really worth 5 pts to me. They would kick serious in pre-warp, where my telepaths sit on their duff with no one around to mind control - but then again, if you start as advanced, you had better defend your perimeter. I'm coming. And I'm ca-ray-zee.

Are we talking SP or Multiplayer? Because in SP advanced I think the mandatory is Creative-Tele screw the rest as the computer is stupid, silly AI.

If it is MP organic, ave or prewarp aquatic planets are very plentiful (terran, ocean, swamp and tundra all give me bonuses) and I only farm on tundra or above planets it is very effective. If it is Ave or Min rich I play a uni-tol-large rich and again production boom. The problem with uni-tele MP ave (pre it is dead) is your ability to beat a good production boomer ends at turn 45. If you don't get there the production race just outstrips you to the point your cruiser just doesn't matter.

BTW, good post.

	27-11-2002 07:37									#225
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Tele is a near useless pick in MP because it hurts your ability to control the air and without control of the air you can't mind control the ground.

The opposite cannot be said. I only need 1 troop transport to take a planet. If I need to I'll bomb the pop out until I can take any planet with 4 troops I will.

Even though I wouldn't capture a superstar planet it is still a minor addition for me and a major subtraction for you.

	27-11-2002 13:22									#226
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May be aquatic is a good option only for organic rich galaxy .... Recently I played a game where only my HW and a small tundra planet were planets that could produce food in the 6 systems I had (on a huge map, normal galaxy, not organic) ... As my pop grow up everyone at the tundra and half of my HW pop had to be farmer and I lost the real benefit from the ultra-rich homeworld which had to feed these not so rich colonies ... But I needed them to generate RP & command points and cache to support the buildings ....

	27-11-2002 23:26									#227
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Yep in a ave or min rich galaxy I like uni-tol-large-rich over uni-aqua. The one thing you usually need to commit to early in that type of setting is getting your mirv nukes and taking down the nearest monsters (4 for an amoeba up to 9 for a dragon with frigates) so your home can be used as a farm and that huge UR gaia can be loaded with workers at 12 base production per without pollution.

In ave or min rich, I agree aquatic is not the best choice.

	29-11-2002 01:42									#228
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Ok - so aqua isn't that bad, but if you note in my original post I still have 2 points left to spend, so I can add rich home world to my telepaths. I just usually don't as a handicap. Mu wu hahahah...

what I dont get about your "UNI-AQUA-+2 pro- large rich hw" (originalbork) is how you pay for it... do you have the low g, crappy spies and ground troops like my space vixens? Because that would make your ground troops fight like the French. Or are your guys some sort of anti-social (read: repulsive) variants?

As far as mixing telepaths with creatives I tend not to do that, since as a telepath you can just steal whatever techs you're missing. You end up paying for the ability to be better at spying, but having no need for it other than preservation of your tech. Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?

Anyway - You've convinced me to give this aqua approach a try, as it does give a big production boost - though I gotta stick by my guns and say I still prefer the no fuss no muss telepath approach to out-production anyday. It's got more style.

	29-11-2002 02:51									#229
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Nah nah

Try this on a huge galaxy:

large home 1
+2 production 6
+1 science 3
creative 8
-20 ship attaack -2
-20 ship defence -2
-20 ground attack -2
-50 money -4

total = 2
plus 4 when you get the final bio tech
then spend 6 on subterrainian

This will do most to maximise your production - the most important aspect of the game.

	29-11-2002 04:26									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Destroyer Nah nah Try this on a huge galaxy: large home 1 +2 production 6 +1 science 3 creative 8 -20 ship attaack -2 -20 ship defence -2 -20 ground attack -2 -50 money -4 total = 2 plus 4 when you get the final bio tech then spend 6 on subterrainian

Yeah - I used to do one like that a lot. I liked the whole subterranean-in-the-back-pocket "whootcha gunna do NOW?!" approach. Usually by that time my buds would give up. I still yell that at the computer though.

	29-11-2002 11:28									#231
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I only use creative in advanced tech games. It gives me everything I need to kill them right after I get posi's and Cl3. One refit and you can go through them like butter.

Assuming anything else with SP speed kill as the objective. I never take anything but repulsive -def -gc. The -GC doesn't much play in because by the time I am beating their ass senseless I am sending droves of TP ships forward. Also my combat bonus's will rip theirs. I will have fusion rifle, zort and personal shield. Considering the computer is a friggin idiot I will overcome my negative easily. The base battleship is zort, pods, rein hull, augies, inertial and a boat load of 2 shot mirv mercs protected by regular mercs as chaff. There is always a runner (destroer with pods, warp disapator, augies and inertial) that assures that the missiles all find a home.

That base battleship will get improved but if I build it, I don't need to refit it ever.

Considering the advantage you have as a tele, I think you may be able to match the kill speed with a Uni-Aqua-Tele in an ave tech game. It would take great timing and your proximity to your first victim may have more to do with it. I know a laser cruiser can easily take down an early SB. That early pop steal would need to override the production defecit you would be experiencing. Noone dared play tele mp as it was a death warrant.

I use my uni-aqua race and a uni-tol variant as they are very effective in MP pre or ave tech games. There was one guy, Cybersaber, who could play an effective creative in ave tech (but he did it more of a change up in larger games) The basic plan was stay away from the furious killers like me until he got Cl3's and positronics. I attack creatives on sight, others don't understand that the window to kill a good creative ends around turn 90 unless you outnumber them over 2-1.

	29-11-2002 17:12									#232
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You forgot the Powered Armor GC bonus (x2 hits +10GC) :-)

	29-11-2002 19:42									#233
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The only way I will have powered armor is if I steal it along the way. I get robo miners fairly early, actually immediately before I run to supers (picking up neural scanners along the way). My home planet is at 15+15 per worker - pollution so ships can get built real fast.

	06-12-2002 19:43									#234
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I completely agree with the kalbear's statement for aquatic benefits.

Some thoughts about what exactly aquatic does:

there are 2 types of planets in the galaxy:
water based and non-water based.
First are:

Tundra - teraforms to swamp //aquatic treat as terran
Swamp - teraforms to terran //aquatic treat as terran
Ocean - only can occur naturally //aquatic treat as gaia
Terran - natural or teraformed //aquatic treat as gaia

And the second are
Desert - teraforms to arid
Arid - teraforms to terran

If the planet is radiated or barren it may be one of the two types (It becomes known when you teraform it for first time)

Toxic - no obtainable bonus from the aquatic here.

So the main benefits from the aquatic:
-----------Without terraforming---------------
Gaia for naturally occuring terran & oceans
Terran for naturally occuring tundra & swamp
-----------With terraforming---------------
(!)Terran for 50% of the barren planets after only one terraforming cycle.
Gaia for everything terraformed to terran.

From this analisys is clear that an aquatic race will want to discover the terraforming at certain point for further benefit from the race bonus; and Chug (wasn't this the guy that brings terraforming) is one of the best leaders
for an aquatic race if he pops early on - dont miss him :-)

Last edited by bakalov on 06-12-2002 at 20:10

	09-12-2002 10:54									#235
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You don't need to research Terraforming with an aquatic. The game will no longer be in question before you would want to spend research to learn it or the production to terraform a planet in place of production towards a shiny new BB.

	09-12-2002 17:01									#236
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And what about an 8-player game on huge map when there only 2 or 3 players remain probaly with warp interdictors in the play, and each of them holding 1/2 or 1/3 of the map? With 250 production you can turn a huge rich barren planet (with 6 pop) into a 20 pop planet, which can buld BB every 3-4 turns? If you ask where you will get pop to fill it - from your poor worlds. For 250 production which is the cost of 1/5 BB it is not too bad; and the terraforming is not so expensive to research (1500); it is only 2 techs form the soil enrichment which you have probably been researched anyway .... And if you get Chug you will get it for free. Chug is one of the higher leaders but he may join at turn 80-90 if you have another Famous leader. At the games I played recently I got him twice :-)

I agree that on the smaller maps in MP it is better not to try to research it except if you get the leader.

	13-12-2002 02:43									#237
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Bakalov, in a huge evenly matched MP game I will eventually take terraforming but 2000 RP's (tele training needs to go first) can be costly in MP. I usually only do it when I am jacked at 900+ rp's. Until then it is entirely too costly to spend time there as opposed to most other techs. I try to get the tech with minimum investment and if I don't I switch to something bigger.

In SP the game is over before I would ever research it.

	13-12-2002 19:20									#238
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Yes, certainly, if you make an investment it will be good to be certain that you will live long enough to see it bearing fruits :-)

	16-12-2002 12:51									#239
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Another way to get Terraforming (it is more applicable for SP, or for MP with AI players in the game) - If you are not Repulsive, demand the Terraforming from the AI players - they seem to very easily to give it (in fact, they never refused it for me); the same is true for the Planetary Gravity Generator.

	19-12-2002 15:06									#240
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A good-looking race for early attack (in prewarp):

Democracy
Lithovore
Artifacts

60RP from turn 1 ... It will have to attack with modded lasers as early as possible .... no battleships, only a few destroyers and frigates (will use the money from the starbase to build them, not colony bases or something else).

Its ideology is to try to catch another race like an uni aqua while it is settling, aiming for the homeworld. It should use an outpost ship to reach them ... If they land a colony ship at turn 25 near you, then you land a transport there :-)