07-05-2002 05:03									#31
	Printing the Map Increase the size of your Attachments

Does anyone know how to go about printing a hard copy of the map? This would be very nice for tournament play.

Thanks in advance,

yoda

By the way, Dr. Doom is wondering when the tourney is scheduled to start. He agrees with Paul that the map should have starting positions on the opposite sides of the world. He also thinks yoda's map is much better than the original choice for the tourney (his words, not mine... LOL).

	07-05-2002 07:16									#32
	Edited Maps Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ok, I have a couple of questions for anyone who can help. Now that I have created a map, how do I go about playing it as a MP game? I've created the scenario and can load it up as a MP game, but there are some problems. The second player comes in and gets more gold/PW than I set, more tech and they seem to learn tech at the same rate as an AI? What have I missed? How can I get the map out of this problem and into normal play?

Thanks in advance,

yoda

	07-05-2002 10:29									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Sorry, I was RL busy yesterday, so I didn't take look at the new maps, and couldn't start a poll for the three .

My vote would go to 1 Settler, that being the hardest condition, but I'm afraid it might be too long, so I can give in to 2 or 3, no more.

Gold, really, give more arguments. I like Pin's points here.

Anyone who will be found cheating (yeah, viewing those saves IS hell of a work) will be permamently expunged from both the Internet and PBEM Ratings. As the Ladder Admin, I have a right of taking a decision, and here I use it. This decision is final.

	07-05-2002 13:34									#34
	Increase the size of your Attachments

ALL PBEM players start with 5000 or 10,000 gold Solver- to punish them by giving them 100, not on the basis of any strategy to improve game play - but because of the fear of someone cheating is a very tough decision to take - I assure you that any cheating will be found out - The very fact that Blackice has offered to help on this side will secure this - I really thought the subject of cheating was dead and buried 6 months ago - The powergraph (especially in first 40 turns) gives an extremely good indication of when a cheat has taken place . I vote for a gold range of 2000- 5000 - ALSO on a gigantic map when you settle far from base you will have capitol distance distress- and a strategy for many will be speding 500 gold on a temple on city build - Starting with 100 gold will preclude the ability to expand empire properly in early game...

Now on the maps - I have an idea... Quinns sym4way is a superb map - try playing it to see what I mean! ..... there are four islands connected by a land bridge - With multiple single islands (mountains) in the sea surrounded by deep water with 4 trade goods each - Just look at it before you make decision..

	07-05-2002 17:15									#35
	Support Apolyton

I am currently finally having a free moment (yay!) and am going to view all the maps.

Here's what we have.

Wonders OFF, except Wormhole.
Piracy OFF.
3 Settlers (I think everyone is OK)
3000 Gold

Doesn't anyone think there should be PW to start with?

	07-05-2002 18:13									#36
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

no pw

and the old tourneys back in 99 and 00 was all played with 1000 gold starting i think.

Also why should a player start in 4000 bc with a hell of a lot of gold. Its a part of the game to make youre trade etc to save gold. If you need a certain amount of gold at a given time to buy the needed improvements, well then you should sacrifice some on the other taxes. e g luxury and science. It should demand skills to get that gold and not be given it by default.

And if you guys are used to play with high starting gold. Well (no offence plz) then you might not be that top player we are looking to find in this tourney.
Cause my strategies also based on buying certain improvements, but my stragety is buildt on me earning that gold trough trade and commerce

So as it was stated in the old thread we wanted to test players under the hardest settings well do 100 gold then. I agree on the settlers due to the speed of the game. But gold is about skills to get it by playing and not given.

well my vote go for 100 gold and i hope my points are taken

	07-05-2002 18:35									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yes, I wouldn't mind 100 gold either, because the hard conditions (100 gold, 3 Settlers) will do better to show the best player. Pin, you aiming for the title, eh?

	07-05-2002 19:32									#38
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I was planning another map based on an idea from Gav, but have been so snowed under with revision it's barely begun. It'll probably be too late, but I'll try and find a little more time to finish it. To address one of the criticisms of my previous map, the starting places would be as far apart as is possible on a huge Earth world...

With respect to my previous map - adding goods is no problem (I actually thought I'd been quite generous but I usually play with sparse goods so that skewed my judgement rather a lot). The start locs are not really that close - they are half a world apart, and there's a fair chunk of mountains to travese in either direction.

I certainly won't be insulted if you use another map, and I'm happy to make any minor changes (like adding goods) which would help. Whatever you do, I hope you all have fun, and I'll see if I can get that other map together in time for you to look at.

	07-05-2002 19:35									#39
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: I certainly won't be insulted if you use another map

I really hope so, for we'd hate to insult anyone with the choice. This is also the reason why I didn't vote on the poll immediately after it was created.

	07-05-2002 19:47									#40
	Increase Your PM Length

Just don't think that just by mentioning it I'm trying some subtle reverse psychology or anything . Probably should never have brought it up...

	07-05-2002 20:00									#41
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hehe... no problems.

	07-05-2002 21:24									#42
	Map Problems Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway I was planning another map based on an idea from Gav, but have been so snowed under with revision it's barely begun.

You seem to be the expert on map creation. How do you export the map or whatever it takes to get it into MP with the right settings?

Thanks,
yoda

	07-05-2002 21:56									#43
	Re: Map Problems Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by yoda You seem to be the expert on map creation. How do you export the map or whatever it takes to get it into MP with the right settings?

I'm sorry to undermine your confidence in me, but I don't know . I've never played an internet game. If I were doing it in PBEM I'd load it through a scenario, but I don't know if internet games are comparable... Gav said something about loading a single player saved game and other people joining, but I can't remember for sure.

	08-05-2002 00:34									#44
	Got spare money?

J Bytheway - Quinns is the guy that will be able to help us load a map online - BUT essentially make sure the two start locs are set, and hand over from there - I think the biggest issue in a game is to make sure players are located north and south not east and west. - As the security of an earth world is good for civ development . I believe that you are extremely technically adept at creating maps, and I like very much the one you have created - and I think just moving start locs will make a tremendous difference - You brief for map creation was extremely sparse! - and as you pointed out you have not played on line - which is such a different game.


I think that your map was superb - and I want to make a suggestion - IF we poll for maps now, I think we are being naive - I think we should first get all three maps played online and see how they compare - I suggest a few EXTRA days to get us up to speed on not just what the maps look like but HOW they play too - I also want to make a suggestion of a team game competition - I noticed that Yoda, Doom, Dragon and Paulno1 play those - Again part of the strategy of a Multiplayer game - It may attract more PBEMers where team play is more the norm anyhow - but that I think is one for the future.

	08-05-2002 00:58									#45
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

(Advance warning - the fact that I'm doing a maths degree is obvious in this post )

The fact that I chose a translational symmetry for that map determined that the players would be east-west separated (though you could of course put both players at or near a pole) - the map I am now working on uses a slightly more ambitious glide reflection symmetry to allow for north/south segregation but without the obvious local repetition you find at the centre of maps like Quinns which rely on rotation or simple reflection symmetries, since I find that rather annoying in its unrealism (Of course gameplay is the first consideration, but aesthetics are important too). Unfortunately this makes mistakes somewhat more common and slows everything down - but I'm sure I'll get used to it soon.

I'll have a look at Yoda's and see what he's done. Maybe from that I'll be able to infer more of what's good in an online map.

Anyway, thanks for the compliments (again ). I hope you do get those test games running so that I can have some feedback about my map.

I'm not sure whether the start locs are properly set on the last version of the map I relesed. If it doesn't work I can fix it in a jiffy.

	08-05-2002 01:07									#46
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The language interpreter displayed a white flag on attempted translation of that one J Bytherway

Am I right in thinking that what you are suggesting (and forgive the imprecise attempted maths terminology) that the map will be an equalised start loc, but with a translation of terrain west to east or east to west, so whereas players will not be immediately opposite each other, they will be on exactly the same terrain to start with - I DO like that idea, and look forward to seeing the result.

	08-05-2002 01:19									#47
	Map Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Gavrushka J Bytheway - Quinns is the guy that will be able to help us load a map online - - I think we should first get all three maps played online and see how they compare - I suggest a few EXTRA days to get us up to speed on not just what the maps look like but HOW they play too -

Please, someone ask Quinns or get him to post just how to move the map to the MP environment. I have already started play testing my map as a single player and have Dr. Doom/Paul/Dragon who wouldn't mind testing it as MP. We just need to get it to that stage.

As a single player map, the one I've created presents a lot of challenges. Empire expansion is manditory to get the goods, but the starting point makes the choices very open. Because the empire needs to be spred out, empire size is a significant factor. Also, a lot of key goods for making those extra monopolies are on the middle islands which makes for some very interesting logistics. The starting places are far enough apart that the alien option is realistic as a quick military victory would be very difficult (but no impossible). Sea is extremely important, but to conquer your opponent you will need to be able to land a significant invasion force as a good number of cities will be interior.

I created the land symmetical as I believe it is manditory to provide both players with the exact same situation. After all, it's a test of skill and what better way to test skill than to give both players the exact same tools to work with.

yoda

	08-05-2002 01:34									#48
	Suffering from ads?

Yoda, that is what J Bytheway is doing - an equlaised map, but one that does not LOOK symmetrical - I think we will be using all these maps for some time to come, and I think careful consideration has to be given to them . And I think once we know how to load game as MP we got to play test the hell out of them all and make an informed decision.

	08-05-2002 01:36									#49
	Put an end to popups!

Just had a look at Yoda's map, and I am impressed. Unfortunately I have a habit of seeing all the things that clash with my sense of rightness, like the river that flows over a lake, but nonetheless I can see it was a lot of work and it's well done. It certainly achieved your aims as you set them out in that last post.

It occured to me that the big question is: Do people want to start connected by land? I made mine with a connection since that seemed to be the consensus opinion at the time, but Yoda's clearly doesn't. I think I'm somewhat turned around to the seperate landmasses point of view (not that I really had an opinion in the first place...). I was planning on a rather long, tortuous connection between the players on my new map, but now I'm not so sure. I'll see how it turns out.

Gav: The glide reflection I'm using basically means this:
If you take the map, reflect it in the equator and shift the whole lot to the east (or west) by half the map width then you interchange the players, but change none of the terrain. As you point out, this gives the players identical terrain with non-opposite start locs. Yoda also achieved this via a rotation, but I wanted to avoid that because of what happens in the middle of the map.

Lots of choices is the key, right? I'll try to keep that in mind.

	08-05-2002 01:55									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Here is MY idea of the brief (yoda please post too)

The players must be far apart.

There must be no obvious direction that the players should take to develop civ (like an obvious high prod centre or a plethora of goods in one area of the map)

There should be some central area to fight over with high prod, goods and growth tiles which is big enough and wide enough so that the player who starts the game is not at an advantage from starting and colonising this area first.

I personally feel there should be a land route between the two nations as otherwise it is exclusively the preserve of the Sea Captains - control the sea and win the game kind of thing...

I think there should be no obvious route from player A to Player B - for instance if there is a single land route, you know where to defend.

I feel there should be MANY very high prod smaller islands that will take two - five cities to create highly difficult to capture fortified cities if a player chooses to do so - PURE mountains

I think that about 30% of the territory should be land and that the continents of the North and South should occupy a significant part of that 30% .

I think that there should always be access to water (river or sea) within 8 squares of any location on land - the reason being it means that the opposition cannot second guess where the city locs would be - as per first suggestion.

I think that the map shoud be prepared to allow any length of game... Even Genetic or Diamond - I doubt things will go that far ... BUT after the comp I think it would be nice to have the map available still for other games.... So Sea Colonisation with ample sea goods should be considered.

It would also be good if we could use Keygen Mod Lite online, again Super Settlers would mean the start locations were diversified IF the player so wished.

I also want to make one more suggestion after a game I had recently - I think all players should start with Theocracy.... in the last game I played religion simply would not come up for 20 turns or so! - but that was compounded by finding tech in ruins- maybe ruined research paths??

Man I am looking forward to this!!!

Yoda can you get the rest of the bunch to start posting ideas?? This discussion is limited if we don't all contribute.

Pin? can we play online sometime??

	08-05-2002 04:02									#51
	Map Design Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Here are just some thoughts on map design:

If the two players are connected by land, you virtually eliminate the necessity for all sea units from the game. Yes, they can be used to control the land bridge or to try an end run invasion, but basically, land units rule. Additionally, how many times have you used an aircraft carrier? Air power can be a critical component to winning a CTP game, and if there are lots of little islands around, everything is land based. In other words, having land bridges and/or lots of little islands around means it's easier for people to conduct a campaign. In my opinion, if you make it so that all of the CTP units have to be considered you have now found the path for finding who is the best CTP player.

If there is not enough land in a game then sea rules. Land units become useless and the game focusses solely on naval conquest. Once again, I don't think this route would find the best CTP players.

If there are not enough goods around to make science advancement a reality, you basically say you want the game to end in a massive conflict. Same goes if there are too many goods. Science becomes the only focus and the military game becomes obsolete (units become obsolete by science too quickly for any successful campaign to be launched).

Same goes for production. You have to have enough mountains around to allow for production but not enough to make pure land based production the game winning formula.

Creating a map, in my opinion, has to take a great deal of factors into consideration. Starting distances, even terrain, etc... can be argued for many days/weeks on this forum and nobody would have concensus. After all, everyone has their own idea of just what makes good ground (and what helps their style of playing as well... LOL).

I say that as long as all components of CTP (stealth, land, sea, production, science, growth) are required to win, you have a good map. Make it challenging for logistics and robust enough to provide the opportunity for a multiple of choices.

But all of this is academic if we can't find a way to take a scenario map and turn it into a MP game... LOL

yoda

	08-05-2002 04:58									#52
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I am gonna try load the map now as an MP - BUT I think one thing is starting to become evident - We play on more than one map.... Yeh it will take longer... But I think maybe with 12 Players - each playing 22 games, or POSSIBLY even 33 on 2 or 3 maps of different kind we should see a fairer result - The games will not take as long as typical games on huge or giga maps- as we will know the lay of tha land, and won't be on Goody hut hunts....

	08-05-2002 05:18									#53
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I am doing SOMETHIN wrong... the only scenario I see is the example one - I tried loading it as normal MP - and got scenario not found error.... I tried the directory structure suggested... IS there anyone with technical ability to help out....

	08-05-2002 08:14									#54
	Support Apolyton

You just have to copy the files to your C: drive exactly as described there. In the example, I set up the sym4way_c.csg map. You can exchange the map, but you have to open the new map in cheat mode, then "Save Scenario As" and remember what you name it. You have to change the SCENARIO.TXT file in line one to match this name exactly. Right now, that name is "sym4way_c". Also, you have to copy over the savegame.csg file with whatever file you saved it to when you "Saved Scenario As". That is, go to the C:\Program Files\Activision\Civilization-Call To Power\ctp_program\ctp\save\games\Sennac (for example), change the file name there to "savegame.csg" and overwrite the file under the C:\Program Files\Activision\Civilization-Call To Power\scenarios\MyScenarioPack\scen0000 folder called savegame.csg. I'm sure you all will figure it out. See attached files for assistance. Good luck.

Attachment: ctp_mp_setup_doc.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

Last edited by quinns on 08-05-2002 at 08:31

	08-05-2002 08:18									#55
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Here are the screen shots to help you set up your C: drive with the custom map. Once you successfully "Load Scenario" from the multiplayer screen, you should see My Scenario Pack and the Description of the scenario (that you wrote in the SCENARIO.TXT file on line two). Line one must be the name of whatever you saved the scenario as.

Attachment: ctp file structure for multiplayer.doc
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	08-05-2002 13:36									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Thank you very very much - this was all going nowhere fast! It is amazing that for years we have all been playing on random maps, and we could have been playing this way!! Superb!!!!

	08-05-2002 14:59									#57
	Increase Your PM Length

Some bastard crashed Apolyton for me.

I like Gav's points on map, especially about islands, and my opinion is that a connection by landbridge is needed - such as in map by Quinns.

Also, my opinion is NO mods, and NO starting tech - standard start conditions.

	08-05-2002 17:35									#58
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think that we should play on multiple maps against multiple times against the opponents. That would give the best result. Also, it would give a more interesting league, since we would get rematchas, and revenge, for the stupid mistakes that we may have made in the last game with that person.

	08-05-2002 17:59									#59
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It becomes more evident Patryn that one game between two people is not enough... It would be great to see someone test the maps now we know how- I think the games will be MUCH quicker than random maps....

	08-05-2002 18:59									#60
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Gav sure we can play, got my iso so have installed ctp, but need an new server.dat file as i cant get any servers up here

Maybe its my firewall(will look into that after i have tried an new server.dat file :=)


but im very busy with work in may but i should be able to squize in an game or two